[PRESERVATION] Build and Talent Discussion

[Teriz]

Did you read what I said? You're still at a disadvantage vs a healer who doesn't move at all - that movement ability only decreases the disadvantage, nothing more, nothing less.

So how many movement abilities are required to decrease the disadvantage to the point where this spec is balanced with other specs? Again, Preservation has several times more movement abilities than other healers.

So yes, all of those movement abilities indeed matter - in decreasing the disadvantage. Do you think it's a fun design? Handicap a class and then give it some options to try and work around the handicap...?

Fun is subjective. I would say that it is different, and we need different types of casters in WoW.

And BTW, as soon as you used that Rescue, you probably flew out of range of OTHER people, so now you need to track back. Good luck!

Then you should have simply continued to move 70%-30% faster and cast while moving instead of using Rescue. Sounds like a skill issue to me.

[Rageonit]

So how many movement abilities are required to decrease the disadvantage to the point where this spec is balanced with other specs? Again, Preservation has several times more movement abilities than other healers.

Then you should have simply continued to move 70%-30% faster and cast while moving instead of using Rescue. Sounds like a skill issue to me.

No amount of abilities can make up for the fact that zero movement required is always better than any movement required. It's a very simple concept.
And no, having to move because of shorter range is not a skill issue, it's a range issue. And that issue always puts you at a disadvantage vs other healers, no matter how many movement abilities you have.

[Scrysis]

You talking about this?



https://twitter.com/AutomaticJak/sta...02604463038464

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Are you new to Beta feedback? People on those forums literally complain about everything.

Would you like to discuss the Priest feedback thread? It's almost twice as long and just as bitchy.



Which is fine, but once again, you're talking about a spec with 3-4x as many movement tools as other healing specs, and people are pretending like such tools don't matter, when movement is a huge concern for many casters.

And no, those casters are not nearly as mobile as Presevation. That's the point.

I'm talking about some of his more recent streams.

Also, hey, look, a new wowhead article talking about how bad the range is: https://www.wowhead.com/news/preserv...yds-too-328919

Monks can get 3 rolls now. It's like hover, but faster. And essence font can be cast while moving. And they have a 40yrd range!

In all seriousness, though, read the article. It doesn't matter if you have mobility if your range penalty is that restrictive as a healer. And this is on top of an incomplete toolkit.

The fact that you think that 25yrd range is fine on a healer makes me question if you played a healer for any length of time at all.

[Teriz]

No amount of abilities can make up for the fact that zero movement required is always better than any movement required. It's a very simple concept.
And no, having to move because of shorter range is not a skill issue, it's a range issue. And that issue always puts you at a disadvantage vs other healers, no matter how many movement abilities you have.

So what if you’re a Shaman and the target goes out of range? Wouldn’t the Shaman have a harder time bringing the target back into range than the Evoker because it has less movement tools?

[Scrysis]

So you believe that being able to move 70% faster and cast on the move repeatedly has zero effect on that?

So I'll spell it out.

Hunter X is standing at range. The Shaman, who has a 40yrd range, can begin to cast a heal on him immediately. The Evoker, on the other hand, must wait for the GCD, then cast hover, move his ass in the hunter's direction, THEN start casting his healing spell. Hover does NOT negate the fact that you must be within range of the target to begin your cast. By the time the Evoker has finished his cast, the Shaman has already healed the hunter and a mage. Oh, look. .. some else in the opposite direction has taken damage! So the process repeats all over again. By the end of the fight, the evoker has probably done 20% of the healing that the shaman has done, because let us not forget that the Shaman also has movement spells, so can also move to get to targets above a 40yrd range, is better at healing stacked fights (which is what you would bring an evoker for) since none of his toolkit is dependent upon essence, and has better single target heals as well.

The range also has a secondary effect -- you cannot bring this ranged class and treat them like every other ranged class in terms of boss strategies. This is effectively like putting a handicap on your raid. Why bring a boat anchor, when you can bring another class that will perform better and not be a strategic liability?

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So what if you’re a Shaman and the target goes out of range? Wouldn’t the Shaman have a harder time bringing the target back into range than the Evoker because it has less movement tools?

Nope! They still have movement tools! If the target goes out of range, they use one of their movement abilities and get within range faster (because remember, 40yrd range) and heal them. On the same target, the Evoker has to use 2-3 times the movement abilities to get to them since they have the 25 yrd range.

[Rageonit]

So what if you’re a Shaman and the target goes out of range? Wouldn’t the Shaman have a harder time bringing the target back into range than the Evoker because it has less movement tools?

And where is that target going? Running to Africa?
If you know how to play a resto Shaman and position yourself properly, targets will very rarely run out of range - simply because of the range on your spells. The same can't be said about Evoker because 1) it covers only 39% of Shamans range; 2) not every fight is a stacked fight.
So why even examine situations that are unlikely to happen? What's the point? To prove that once in a blue moon, an Evoker will have it easier to reach somebody?
And BTW, if a resto Shaman is having troubles with range on his spells, it means the Evoker is screwed.

[Scrysis]

You have to compare the entire kit though. It's utterly stupid to just look at part of the kit and say that it's worthless when in actual gameplay, you're going to be using all of your tools.

It's also stupid to mindlessly say that 25 yd spells covers X amount of area and completely ignore the fact that we have a spec that has several ways of overcoming that limitation. Yeah if we're talking about a Shaman or a Druid with 25yd spell range there's a problem. However if a Shaman could cast SWG 5x as often as they could now, and could fly over a battlefield and do an AoE heal, and instantly fly to a target and heal them, that limitation suddenly isn't as bad.




That's up to the player to decide. If they just want another healing class that can stay in a spot and be a 40yd healing turret, they have plenty of options to choose from.



I would very much like to know who they think has a better mobility kit.

Dream breath is on a 2 minute cooldown and very sub-par against Cycle of Life at the moment.

[Teriz]

I'm talking about some of his more recent streams.

Also, hey, look, a new wowhead article talking about how bad the range is: https://www.wowhead.com/news/preserv...yds-too-328919

Monks can get 3 rolls now. It's like hover, but faster.

I’d love to hear the explanation for that one.

And essence font can be cast while moving. And they have a 40yrd range!

Yes, different healers do different things.

In all seriousness, though, read the article. It doesn't matter if you have mobility if your range penalty is that restrictive as a healer. And this is on top of an incomplete toolkit.

I did read the article. I think part of the article’s problem is basing the Evoker’s performance entirely on SL raids. Also the idea that there are other healers with better mobility tools is pretty laughable.

The fact that you think that 25yrd range is fine on a healer makes me question if you played a healer for any length of time at all.

25yds is fine on a healer when the healer has multiple abilities to close the range gap, which the Evoker has.

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And where is that target going? Running to Africa?
If you know how to play a resto Shaman and position yourself properly, targets will very rarely run out of range - simply because of the range on your spells. The same can't be said about Evoker because 1) it covers only 39% of Shamans range; 2) not every fight is a stacked fight.

So you’re arguing that a good Evoker player won’t know how to position themselves?

So why even examine situations that are unlikely to happen? What's the point? To prove that once in a blue moon, an Evoker will have it easier to reach somebody?

The point is that 40yds doesn’t cover an entire raid area, and targets going out of range isn’t a uniquely Evoker problem.

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Dream breath is on a 2 minute cooldown and very sub-par against Cycle of Life at the moment.

If you need movement and range, it’s 50yd range can be beneficial.

[Rageonit]

So you’re arguing that a good Evoker player won’t know how to position themselves?

Am I? Did you miss the fact that Evoker covers 39% of Shaman's range? Do you uniderstand it's 61% less? Do you know how much 61% is or does it require explanation...? The way range works in WoW - and the way you can position yourself with a shaman - means that yes, 40 yards covers he entire raid most of the time. It also gives you a lot more space to plan your startegy and positioning. 25 does not - there are already images proving that. What more do you need?

I main a resto Shaman since Cata and in SL, I could list maybe a couple of fights where I had ANY issues with range - and on none of those fights Evoker would do better than the Shaman. On some he would do much worse due to certain mechanics. On the other hand, I know very well that on certain encounters Evoker would have been at a huge disadvantage even though I had no problems (like ranged having to sit at max range). Some of those fights were already listed in the link (with reasoning) and you didn't comment on any. Wonder why?

People criticizing Evoker's range give clear examples why it's bad for a healer class. Go on, do the same thing. Give us specific examples: on what fights would the Evoker do better and why? If you can't discuss specifics, I'm out.

[Teriz]

Am I? Did you miss the fact that Evoker covers 39% of Shaman's range? Do you uniderstand it's 61% less? Do you know how much 61% is or does it require explanation...?

Do you understand that Evoker has an ability that 70% increased speed and cast on the move and they have two charges with a 35 second recharge? Again, that's like Shaman having an improved version of SWG that they can cast 5 times as often. That's not even close to their only movement utility either.

Why are we ignoring the Evoker's healing tools here and pretending that they're a turret caster like Shaman? Yes, a healer with Shaman's tools with 25 yd range limit is a problem, but the Evoker has a completely different set of tools.

[Rageonit]

Do you understand that Evoker has an ability that 70% increased speed and cast on the move and they have two charges with a 35 second recharge? Again, that's like Shaman having an improved version of SWG that they can cast 5 times as often. That's not even close to their only movement utility either.

Why are we ignoring the Evoker's healing tools here and pretending that they're a turret caster like Shaman? Yes, a healer with Shaman's tools with 25 yd range limit is a problem, but the Evoker has a completely different set of tools.

Evoker has longer casts than Shaman.
You've been given plenty of examples of fights where Evoker is at a disadvantage vs other healers. Your turn - examples of fights where an Evoker has advantage - with reasoning why. If you're unable to provide any, I will just assume you have nohing valuable to add to this discussion.

[Nyel]

So what if you’re a Shaman and the target goes out of range? Wouldn’t the Shaman have a harder time bringing the target back into range than the Evoker because it has less movement tools?

You still haven't understood the core issue. A Shaman covers 100% of the area. An Evoker covers 39% of an area. Without any movement involved, neither the Shaman, nor the Evoker, nor their targets are moving. Just put both casters in the middle and then place targets at maximum range (which in this case is 40 yards). The Evoker will always have to move and then lose more than half of the other targets by its natural design. The Shaman does not have to move at all to be able to heal each and every target around that circle.

I don't get it, how can you not understand this easy concept? I could explain this to a 5 year old and I am sure it would understand the difference between both of them. I even posted a picture that clearly shows you the disadvantage of Evokers in this scenario. A disadvantage that is always applied to each and every situation because it's the core concept (better said: flaw) of the class.

I'll try again. Look at this super simple graphic I made:



Shaman (blue) covers 100%. Evoker (teal) covers 39%. Both are standing in the middle (red circle). This scenario is the core healing concept of both classes, defined solely by their healing range. Without any movement involved. How can you not see what a massive disadvantage Evoker has when it comes to healing? It can cover less than half of the area under the same circumstances a Shaman (or better said, any other healer) can.

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Why are we ignoring the Evoker's healing tools here and pretending that they're a turret caster like Shaman? Yes, a healer with Shaman's tools with 25 yd range limit is a problem, but the Evoker has a completely different set of tools.

Because Evokers are the most turret caster of all available healing specs? They have the least amounf of instant skills and the longest casting time for skills by far. They are the definition of a hard caster.

[Scrysis]

Evoker has longer casts than Shaman.
You've been given plenty of examples of fights where Evoker is at a disadvantage vs other healers. Your turn - examples of fights where an Evoker has advantage - with reasoning why. If you're unable to provide any, I will just assume you have nohing valuable to add to this discussion.

I'm just going to block the dude. He re-uses the same arguments without addressing anything, uses strawman arguments, and doesn't address any of the additional concerns, such as raid positioning or tactics, because he knows he can't win against them. He thinks he knows more about the short range than world first players do, or even the vast majority of the players testing out the class/spec or even just normal healers who know what a pain it is to chase down dps with a 40yrd range. It's just pure arrogance on his part.

I've been playing way too damn long in this game, and I have very seldom seen such massive one-sided criticism of a thing as the 25 yrd range on Evoker. And every time I have seen it, the criticism has been proven to be 100% justified.

[Teriz]

I’ll just leave this here;



He agrees that the range isn’t the problem.

[Nyel]

I’ll just leave this here;



He agrees that the range isn’t the problem.

Funny enough that his opinion counts for you, but the one from wowhead from an as experienced and prolific player does not. And for sure there are several more problems than the range and we already talked about them. Empower spells, for example. Which is basically another design concept for Evoker that simply doesn't work the way it is implemented and completely contradicts their mobility by rooting them in place for 3 seconds.

Reading through the comments under the video, he even acknowledges that the range is a problem, but for him not the main one: I think the range atm is not the #1 issue. It can cause issues for sure but I think the biggest problem is the type of output and gameplay around empowers that need attention first. He's even saying that in the video (3:13 - 3:25): the range is not the key problem. Which all of a sudden doesn't make it no problem at all. So I don't see how you come to the conclusion that he somehow agrees with you that the range isn't a problem.

More issues he mentioned for all the people that don't want to watch the video:

- Poor single target healing
- Weak healing in scenarios where groups are spread
- Essence being too important for the spec
- Temporal Anomaly being clunky
- The right side of the talent tree being badly designed (around the Temporal Anomaly talents)
- Evoker being useless in spread fights in raids (even said Shamans have the same problem, but have ways to fill the gap: better heals, 40 yard range)
- Echo builds being too complicated while doing not enough in the end
- Other things not related to Evoker gameplay: lack of changes in the last beta builds, lack of developer dedication and communication (no blueposts since weeks, ignorant towards feedback)

[Skroman]

Holy hell... havent played wow in like 3-4 years, and haven't been on mmo-champ in a long while...

Y'all are babies lmao. Crying over a class that ;

1. Either of you haven't done any raid / pvp / m+ dungeon testing.
2. Is brand new and still in beta. Feral druids (lol) just got an entire overhaul, in the beta.
3. Stop being babies and crying because someone doesn't agree with your opinion.
4. Its new so both of you babies are going to play it regardless.

[Teriz]

F
Reading through the comments under the video, he even acknowledges that the range is a problem, but for him not the main one: I think the range atm is not the #1 issue. It can cause issues for sure but I think the biggest problem is the type of output and gameplay around empowers that need attention first. He's even saying that in the video (3:13 - 3:25): the range is not the key problem. Which all of a sudden doesn't make it no problem at all. So I don't see how you come to the conclusion that he somehow agrees with you that the range isn't a problem.

You seriously don't see the difference between that take and your take where you said that the 25yd range makes the spec damn near unplayable?

Also, he never says that range is a problem in the video. He says that the limited range is completely compensated for by the mobility, as I've been saying this entire time. Further, he says that if Blizzard upped the spells to 40yds, they would have to limit Preservation's mobility options significantly.

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Because Evokers are the most turret caster of all available healing specs? They have the least amounf of instant skills and the longest casting time for skills by far. They are the definition of a hard caster.

Turrets can't move while casting spells.

Evokers are the exact opposite of that.

[Rageonit]

You seriously don't see the difference between that take and your take where you said that the 25yd range makes the spec damn near unplayable?

Nobody said that, you're making things up. It was only said that with the 25yd range, an Evoker is at a disadvantage versus other healers.
That being said, where are the examples of raid encounters where Evoker is at an advantage?

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Funny enough that his opinion counts for you, but the one from wowhead from an as experienced and prolific player does not

Funny enough, at the end the guy from the video also says: "If there's a fight [in a raid] where you need to spread, I don't think there's any reason to bring an Evoker, and I think any Evoker main will just feel terrible playing their spec" and: "Maybe they will have to make an adjustment to allow the Evoker to cast from 40 yd range" xD Way to shoot yourself in a foot.
So he's saying the same thing I've been saying since the very beginning.
So, @Teriz, tell us: do you still agree with the guy?

[Gorsameth]

Having more movement abilities really doesn't matter. The moment an Evoker is out of range and has to move, even with 1000% extra movespeed, he will be slower to heal the person in need then any other healer that is in range. And that's not even counting that you may have to look up at the screen and actually find the person you need to run to before you can start moving.

"But what if the other healer needs to move as well" is rarely a problem because the entire raid strategy is generally designed around keeping healers in range of the people they need to heal. A lot easier with 40y, then 25.

When healers complain about needing movement options is not because they are running their asses off trying to get people into range to heal but because encounters sometimes require you to heal the raid from damage while the entire raid is moving.

[Teriz]

Nobody said that, you're making things up. It was only said that with the 25yd range, an Evoker is at a disadvantage versus other healers.

Read post #19.

That being said, where are the examples of raid encounters where Evoker is at an advantage?

Once we get some info from DF raids, I’ll be sure to provide some.