[PRESERVATION] Build and Talent Discussion

[Puxycat]

Mobility doesn't help when you have no casts to support that playstyle. Druid is very mobile because it has a ton of instant heals that it can throw left and right. Evoker simply hasn't which renders its mobility useless. Another problem in raids is that mobility doesn't help you with healing when other healers can get the job done without the hassle. And in that case why even bring an Evoker when you can have a Restoration Shaman (which will be the better stacked healer anyway) or a Druid? The limited range is a massive problem and will get changed, if not for 10.0 then for 10.1 or 10.2. It simply has no place in WoW.

And we know blizzard is stuborn and they will not change it to 40 yards because they just made it like that. And as you mentioned next xpac they will "realise" it wasnt fitting and they will change and simply ruin that new class hype no one will be interested playing a lizard in a non dragon Theme xpac.

[Scrysis]

It will change. Just a matter of when and how.

Now that monks can get 3 charges of roll, they have roughly the same relative mobility with way better defensives, better range, and better balanced toolkit. Shaman will be taken for stack fights because they don't have the glaring weaknesses that Evokers have.

Raids will take Devastation Evokers for the buff since 5 yrd loss on a ranged caster isn't much of a loss. You'll have some people level it to try it out, but will ditch it once the drawbacks are apparent. And then they'll finally have to change it when representation in group content is like 0.0000001% of the healer population because that would be an abysmal failure to balance, especially on a new shiny class that should see more people playing it, not less. But Blizzard might try doubling down by patching the class up elsewhere to make them more in demand. They're ignoring it for now because they're sure that the beta testers don't know what they're talking about on a new class. So we'll probably have to wait until live to see any changes -- probably during the first raid.

[Nyel]

It will change. Just a matter of when and how.

Now that monks can get 3 charges of roll, they have roughly the same relative mobility with way better defensives, better range, and better balanced toolkit. Shaman will be taken for stack fights because they don't have the glaring weaknesses that Evokers have.

I mean the big, the gigantic plus for Mistweaver in that regard is Essence Font, which is usable while moving. As long as Evoker has to stand still for charging skills, it's a dead end road paired with the 25m range.

There is just nothing yet that justifies the reduced range. And there is really nothing so special in their toolkit to justify bringing an Evoker healer over any other healer.

[Puxycat]

I also do not get what is the point of a "charged healing" system? You Charge to get big heals, big heals requires fast action, charging takes time, patient is dead. Thanks doc. Even if i still dont like it for dps it works but for healing to Charge something they should come with a more creative way. What comes to my mind would work is you Charge the ability for your next use and can cast others till then and in a oshit moment release that stored charged big breath. Maybe? But for that range i still dont get any Logic to work around. Specially in pvp oh god have mercy on us.

[Nyel]

I also do not get what is the point of a "charged healing" system? You Charge to get big heals, big heals requires fast action, charging takes time, patient is dead. Thanks doc. Even if i still dont like it for dps it works but for healing to Charge something they should come with a more creative way. What comes to my mind would work is you Charge the ability for your next use and can cast others till then and in a oshit moment release that stored charged big breath. Maybe? But for that range i still dont get any Logic to work around. Specially in pvp oh god have mercy on us.

I think charged skills overall are a design failure and do nothing for the class. I think they should more rely on the Echo mechanic, that's something that actually makes sense. Charging skills is just stupid in the context of WoW combat, especially when you see how basic and unexciting the charged skills are. "Stronger DoT, longer HoT, more targets" - it's as basic yet as clunky as it could be.

[Teriz]

Mobility is irrelevant with proper positioning.

Range is also irrelevant with proper positioning.

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It will change. Just a matter of when and how.

I highly doubt it.

Blizzard is pushing the class as a class that is harder to play than other classes. That may ding their popularity, but I could see a scenario where the best healers gravitate towards the class for a challenge. You might get a few changes here and there, like possibly a buff that makes Echo a free cast, or increasing the range of Rescue, but in terms of the overall playstyle, Blizzard seems pretty dedicated to it.

[Nightshade711]

I don’t think the range is as bad as y’all are saying tbh. I only see the issue being a thing for new healers and/or a dungeon where everyone spreads too far out.

Though I would like to see a CD where you could increase the range to 40 yards for a short time. Just for those spread fights like Halondrus.

[Alanar]

I also do not get what is the point of a "charged healing" system? You Charge to get big heals, big heals requires fast action, charging takes time, patient is dead. Thanks doc. Even if i still dont like it for dps it works but for healing to Charge something they should come with a more creative way. What comes to my mind would work is you Charge the ability for your next use and can cast others till then and in a oshit moment release that stored charged big breath. Maybe? But for that range i still dont get any Logic to work around. Specially in pvp oh god have mercy on us.

Ye it works with stuff like shield that are being used pre danger. A big heal is cool, but the purpose is kinda dead, when its very slow to cast. Sure I get it its an advanced hero class( got this message lol while creating one lol)
But they cant expect players to pre cast and think ahead like that far forward and with that range.. men.

I mean idk how big of a difference fully charged compared no charge is, but it seems kinda clunky so far. I dont even feel like further testing the healing spec as it doesnt interest me, but some one else will.

[Ielenia]

Mobility doesn't help when you have no casts to support that playstyle. Druid is very mobile because it has a ton of instant heals that it can throw left and right. Evoker simply hasn't which renders its mobility useless.

And then in fights with mechanics such as Sludgefist, where the raid separates into two groups, melee and ranged... the evoker would have to sit with the melee group, since their heals are too short-ranged to sit with the rest of the ranged. Mobility means shit in fights where the raid has to be clumped up in tight groups.

[Nyel]

Range is also irrelevant with proper positioning.

Wow, you presented the tactic for every raid boss ever with this sentence. /s

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...but in terms of the overall playstyle, Blizzard seems pretty dedicated to it.

Yeah, until they change it, because the feedback regarding the 25m range is devastating.

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I don’t think the range is as bad as y’all are saying tbh. I only see the issue being a thing for new healers and/or a dungeon where everyone spreads too far out.

As soon as there's a fight where either the Evoker or his group members are apart, the range becomes a problem. And besides few stacked fights, this is the case for basically most bosses. Druids and Monks at the end of the day are still more mobile classes while having 40m range and more heals to cast while moving.

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And then in fights with mechanics such as Sludgefist, where the raid separates into two groups, melee and ranged... the evoker would have to sit with the melee group, since their heals are too short-ranged to sit with the rest of the ranged. Mobility means shit in fights where the raid has to be clumped up in tight groups.

It just makes Evoker worthless in these fights. And I say worthless because they have no skills that would justify this playstyle. Shamans are infintely better stacked healers than Evokers without the range restriction. Why take an Evoker?
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Y'all who say Evoker is fine and the range is now problem: in which scenario would you choose an Evoker healer over another healer? I'm curious.

[Puxycat]

All that plus self sustain is very weak due to having no real defensives, 25yards abomination aside, how can you heal someone when you can not even sustain yourself. I find evoker a sad class really. From Visual design to gameplay they are a disaster to me. Do they have potential? Still i think nope. The fundamentals of their design is flawed just as it fits to their lore. Neltharion wanted to create a superior human dragon Hybrid which came out 25 yard lizard. Makes me smile in agony.

[Scrysis]

I don’t think the range is as bad as y’all are saying tbh. I only see the issue being a thing for new healers and/or a dungeon where everyone spreads too far out.

Though I would like to see a CD where you could increase the range to 40 yards for a short time. Just for those spread fights like Halondrus.

That would be very nearly every boss fight. You would legitimately be surprised at how many hunters, mages, and warlocks are attacking the boss from outer space. I mean, very frequently you have the mage attacking from max range on one side of the boss, the hunter at max range from the other side. And normally you would think that this wouldn't be a problem, but then the boss has a 20 yrd hitbox (slight exaggeration in most, but not all cases), which means that you couldn't hit both of them, even if you were sitting inside of the boss (don't recommend). And this is with a 40 YARD RANGE. Not even a 25yrd range.

Well, then you might think, "Those dps are idiots! Get better dps!" And you're not wrong. I mean, healers everywhere know that 90% of dps are morons. (I'm half-joking.) That only leaves 10% of the dps as viable party members, and not only is that not enough, but they don't exactly have markers on them for when you're looking to put together a group. The best solution would be to make better idiots. But seeing as how no one has figured out how to do that, the next best thing to do is to not artificially hamstring the class for no good reason. Almost all of the drakthyr spells are on cooldowns, so they're already compensated for them generally hitting harder. And because at least one other class has the same level of mobility (with better defensives, no less!), there needs to be some sort of trade-off for the handicap. Which there currently isn't.

Still not convinced? Look at how many boss raid mechanics involve a 5 or 8 yrd spread. Now think of how much of that coverage any other healer can cover, versus the 25 yrd evoker. Range is most definitely going to be a huge issue.

[Migg]

The 25 yard range isn't too bad as DPS, but it is absolutely dreadful as a healer. It requires way too much coordination from your party, which means it will be a dead spec in any high pug content.

They didn't even design the new dungeons of the expansion with the range in mind. 3 out of the new dungeon end bosses have deadly knockback effects that are 10x harder to heal through as Evoker than any of the other healer specs

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All that plus self sustain is very weak due to having no real defensives, 25yards abomination aside, how can you heal someone when you can not even sustain yourself. I find evoker a sad class really. From Visual design to gameplay they are a disaster to me. Do they have potential? Still i think nope. The fundamentals of their design is flawed just as it fits to their lore. Neltharion wanted to create a superior human dragon Hybrid which came out 25 yard lizard. Makes me smile in agony.

Just use Time Dilation on yourself. Tanks will very rarely need it, and everyone else uses their own personals. Time Dilation + Renewing Blaze combo practically makes you invincible. Both on a 1 minute CD if talented, should be up whenever you need it.

[Teriz]

Yeah, until they change it, because the feedback regarding the 25m range is devastating.

Feedback from where exactly? The major streamers have said that Presevation is OP to outright busted. Where’s the people saying it’s worthless or unworkable as you’re claiming?

[Nyel]

Feedback from where exactly? The major streamers have said that Presevation is OP to outright busted. Where’s the people saying it’s worthless or unworkable as you’re claiming?

Basically the entire Evoker thread in the official beta forum? Everybody is concerned about the 25m range for Preservation and is saying how bad it feels to heal with that. Just go through it, if you don't want to check the entire thread, just go over the last 100-200 posts.

By the way, the overall feedback for Evoker has been very lukewarm right there and I have yet to see streamers calling them stupidly OP which is based on data and not just on early hands-on feels. Overall, beta testers are very dissatisfied by Evoker and how underwhelming it feels to play or it performs in competition, especially Preservation.

This comment pretty much describes what everybody thinks about Preservation in that thread: It's beginning more and more to feel like playing holy paladin with your hands handcuffed behind your back.

[Puxycat]

The 25 yard range isn't too bad as DPS, but it is absolutely dreadful as a healer. It requires way too much coordination from your party, which means it will be a dead spec in any high pug content.

They didn't even design the new dungeons of the expansion with the range in mind. 3 out of the new dungeon end bosses have deadly knockback effects that are 10x harder to heal through as Evoker than any of the other healer specs

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Just use Time Dilation on yourself. Tanks will very rarely need it, and everyone else uses their own personals. Time Dilation + Renewing Blaze combo practically makes you invincible. Both on a 1 minute CD if talented, should be up whenever you need it.

In pve anyhow they will do something my main arguement is about pvp

[Scrysis]

Feedback from where exactly? The major streamers have said that Presevation is OP to outright busted. Where’s the people saying it’s worthless or unworkable as you’re claiming?

Which streamers are you watching?

Max from Limit was talking about how they wouldn't take an Evoker healer, AutomaticJak was talking about how bad the range is, and Growl wasn't particularly impressed by it either.

Everything I've heard is that Evoker would be strong on stacked fights and only stacked fights. Their range is super problematic, and their single-target healing is very weak. Right now, the conclusion is that if you need a stacked fight healer, you bring a shaman. They're even stronger on stacked fights than Evoker, don't have range limitations, not as weak on single target healing, and bring more utility. And they have an ability that does true cast while moving, not the tiny handful of spells you're allowed to do while hovering.

[Nyel]

Max from Limit was talking about how they wouldn't take an Evoker healer

I mean, why would you? Evoker has only downsides (limited range, lack of instant spells or spells they can cast while moving, charged spells take forever and feel underwhelming, no real spread AoE healing, weak ST healing, lack of unique utility) compared to other healers, there's no upside or a thing that makes them special or mandatory to have.

I've yet to see one scenario or fight where a raid would take an Evoker over any other healer.

[Teriz]

Basically the entire Evoker thread in the official beta forum? Everybody is concerned about the 25m range for Preservation and is saying how bad it feels to heal with that. Just go through it, if you don't want to check the entire thread, just go over the last 100-200 posts.

By the way, the overall feedback for Evoker has been very lukewarm right there and I have yet to see streamers calling them stupidly OP which is based on data and not just on early hands-on feels. Overall, beta testers are very dissatisfied by Evoker and how underwhelming it feels to play or it performs in competition, especially Preservation.

This comment pretty much describes what everybody thinks about Preservation in that thread: It's beginning more and more to feel like playing holy paladin with your hands handcuffed behind your back.

Actually if you read that, most posters are pointing out a variety of things. Range being one thing people have a problem with. Again, the issue appears to be comparing Preservation to other healers, when Preservation has multiple movement tools.

[Nyel]

Actually if you read that, most posters are pointing out a variety of things. Range being one thing people have a problem with. Again, the issue appears to be comparing Preservation to other healers, when Preservation has multiple movement tools.

Yeah, most posters are pointing out a variety of things why Evoker healer is bad and there exist no reason for all of that. Range is just the biggest of all the issues, there are several more. You can find several very elaborate comments in that thread why Preservation at this point is pretty much a dead spec for most of the content. If you go over the hundreds of replies, there is a tiny portion singling out what Evoker does good when it comes to healing and a gigantic portion of why it's a barely functioning healing spec at the moment.

And for sure people are comparing Preservation to other healers, because that is the competition. And in that regard Evoker is just by a wide margin the worst of all healing specs due to several reasons. Those ominous movement tools do nothing for the class when Monk and Druid and even Restoration Shamans with Spiritwalkers Grace (and Gust of Wind) are as mobile if not more and are not hindered by a limited range.