M+ Rewards in Season 1 of Dragonflight now scale to +20s

[Ludek]

The whole problem is that the "3 pillars of endgame" - raid, m+ and pvp are way to different in terms of effort required, accessibility or skill cap while the gear rewarded is universal.

This why there will never be an option to satisfy all the players, not there won't be any way for the "top end players" of each category to feel obligated to do other game types if they want to stay on the top.

Main problem is, that in terms of reward balancing, Blizz is doing it in the reverse order - they try to balance rewards of theoretically infinite difficulty systems (both with ratings you can grind higher and higer), against something which is finite - when you kill last boss of the tier on mythic, there is nothing harder, while in M+ for example you can theoretically reach a difficulty where finishing a key will be harder than killing that last raid boss (of course it's in like mid 30+ probably but still, it is possible, and it's not rewarded any better than competing your weekly 15 (soon 18) even with all the effort you put in to finish it).

M+ reward should have the same max ilvl as the raid, but it should be more spread, especially now when we have 3 tiers of ilvl in each raid difficulty - something like +2-10 (normal), +11-20 (heroic), +21-onwards (mythic) - imaginary numbers to illustrate the idea, not quite sure how exactly m+ difficulty compares to raid (don't worry, Blizz also does not know this).

Or we just separate the gear sets all along - we already have pvp gear getting bonus power in pvp, so why not do that with raids and m+? And no, tier being raid only is not that kind of "additional power", while tier bonuses can be powerful, most of the people just want to see plain number increase (if not, there would be no drama about the raid having better loot numbers wise than m+)

[SoulSoBreezy]

It depends on tuning. Traditionally introductory seasons are a bit more difficult since there's a lot of unfamiliarity. Anecdotally, I'd say SL S1 +18s felt about equivalent in difficulty to +25s this season. If dungeons are tuned about the same as they are in S4 then yeah, I'd say 18s would be a fine middle-ground. However, if +18s in DF S1 are as difficult as S1 SL +18s it'll be a pretty different story.

I agree. The percentages are very malleable but I'm willing to bet that they're overall trying to make lower keys easier.
If you take a close look, right now in SL low level keys give item level upgrades at each key level and then later, every other key.
In DF it's linear, every other key level starting from 2 will give item level upgrades every even numbered key. So I think to make up for it, they're stretching out those first few levels.
Instead of the gear upgrades being easier, the key levels are easier.

[Jester Joe]

So you're the one that is slacking with gear, gotcha.

The secret is I don't bother with CE anymore because it's far too time consuming, and I'm still the most geared in my guild but anyone who has to answer questions with mockery clearly has nothing worth saying.

[Relapses]

The whole problem is that the "3 pillars of endgame" - raid, m+ and pvp are way to different in terms of effort required, accessibility or skill cap while the gear rewarded is universal.

This why there will never be an option to satisfy all the players, not there won't be any way for the "top end players" of each category to feel obligated to do other game types if they want to stay on the top.

Main problem is, that in terms of reward balancing, Blizz is doing it in the reverse order - they try to balance rewards of theoretically infinite difficulty systems (both with ratings you can grind higher and higer), against something which is finite - when you kill last boss of the tier on mythic, there is nothing harder, while in M+ for example you can theoretically reach a difficulty where finishing a key will be harder than killing that last raid boss (of course it's in like mid 30+ probably but still, it is possible, and it's not rewarded any better than competing your weekly 15 (soon 18) even with all the effort you put in to finish it).

M+ reward should have the same max ilvl as the raid, but it should be more spread, especially now when we have 3 tiers of ilvl in each raid difficulty - something like +2-10 (normal), +11-20 (heroic), +21-onwards (mythic) - imaginary numbers to illustrate the idea, not quite sure how exactly m+ difficulty compares to raid (don't worry, Blizz also does not know this).

Or we just separate the gear sets all along - we already have pvp gear getting bonus power in pvp, so why not do that with raids and m+? And no, tier being raid only is not that kind of "additional power", while tier bonuses can be powerful, most of the people just want to see plain number increase (if not, there would be no drama about the raid having better loot numbers wise than m+)

I'm in support of different sets for each type of content. Speculation here (obviously) but I'd wager the main reason Blizzard hasn't gone this route yet is that they're afraid that if they give M+ its own exclusive reward path that it'll be the death knell for Mythic raiding. It's been on life support for a few expansions now and a change like this would yank out the cord. Seeing as I'm sure they quite like the exposure the RWF gets them this is likely something they want to hold onto for as long as they possibly can.

That said, it's clear they want to increase the overall participation of raiding. As I've said elsewhere in the thread that I think this current approach is the wrong way to do it. Making M+ only players feel like second class citizens is a surefire way to make them quit, not up and join Heroic/Mythic guilds.

[Jester Joe]

Heroic raiding WAS very much obsolete in much of Shadowlands thanks to mythic+ having higher ilvl gear than the vast majority of heroic raids and is much easier to obtain.

I've already said this.

Normal I'd accept as being obsolete, but theres still trinkets and gear worth getting from the raid and heroic pieces are more than enough to use and mythic is far more time consuming and out of reach. Heroic is the most reliable to get and still a usable ilvl.

[Ludek]

I'm in support of different sets for each type of content. Speculation here (obviously) but I'd wager the main reason Blizzard hasn't gone this route yet is that they're afraid that if they give M+ its own exclusive reward path that it'll be the death knell for Mythic raiding. It's been on life support for a few expansions now and a change like this would yank out the cord. Seeing as I'm sure they quite like the exposure the RWF gets them this is likely something they want to hold onto for as long as they possibly can.

That said, it's clear they want to increase the overall participation of raiding. As I've said elsewhere in the thread that I think this current approach is the wrong way to do it. Making M+ only players feel like second class citizens is a surefire way to make them quit, not up and join Heroic/Mythic guilds.

Uping the raid rewards (by nerfing other sources of gear) is not exactly a valid way to encourage more raiding.

People interested only in m+ or PVP will not raid high content just because of the gear alone - the gear benefits are not enough to convince people to double or triple their group organizing effort.

Times changed, and with them the player structure and goals also changed - for raid you have to organize at least 9 other people, to log in, then go through couple hour session of learning the bosses, meanwhile fighting loads of trash. While in M+ or PVP you have smaller group, participating in relatively quicker content, where the outcome of your play is known way faster.

This is also why Mythic raiding is dying - because getting 20 people to afford the level of commitment needed to participate, is getting harder and harder - no amount of loot / reward shenanigans will change it.

There is also no clear solution how to improve this situation - if Blizz would go the other popular games route - getting bite-sized raids for smaller groups with almost no trash, and preferably queable on per boss basis (like for example in XIV or Lost Ark), then raids would loose much of their scale and prestige.

What I think would be the only sane option is that Mythic raids should move for cosmetics / bragging rights only - similar to M+ higher than 15 (soon 18) - just cap ilvl on heroic and if someone, and his 19 buddies wants to challenge themselves with big epic fights for some cool looking transmogs - let them have it.

It would also technically help Blizzard with tuning the fights having the same group potential max ilvl from start to finish, would allow to design fights more around mechanics, than potential numbers a group could have at that specific moment of the season.
Not to mention that also solves the problem of high m+ gear being easier to attain than low-mid mythic raid ones.

[jeezusisacasual]

Heroic raiding WAS very much obsolete in much of Shadowlands thanks to mythic+ having higher ilvl gear than the vast majority of heroic raids and is much easier to obtain.

Then perhaps people do not actually enjoy heroic raiding and more effort should be placed into an activity that people enjoy doing? I could raid as i did from vanilla to mythic archimonde ( and still wear my hand of adal title ) but the layers of bullshit has made it more fustrating then rewarding and it started with BRF. When it became a thank god its over instead of a holy shit we did it i knew it was time to not bother. Since legion i get to solo my way to a goal ( KSM by no later then week 6 as of S1 and week 2-4 every season afterwards ) with the mythic plus system, i get a title and mount feel accomplished and move on to other games. WoW needs more end date things and less long ass D and D campaign. Gutting mythic plus will never make more people raid it will only drive those away who are already on the fringes like myself. This does not also means much of the experimentation of WoW is dead and gone since datamining, guides , subcreation are a thing and i will use those because i want to be done faster not be here longer since i have again more games to play then ever before.

[Relapses]

Heroic raiding WAS very much obsolete in much of Shadowlands thanks to mythic+ having higher ilvl gear than the vast majority of heroic raids and is much easier to obtain.

Bruh --

You could only get the Legendary Bow from Sylvanas by raiding.

You could only get Domination Sockets (which still provided a DPS bonus in M+) by raiding.

There were several raiding-exclusive trinkets/weapons which outpaced their M+ counterparts even at lower item levels than what you get from M+. Cheat death trinkets are exclusively raid items and these are extremely potent (to the point of being near mandatory per @Jester Joe's comment earlier) in M+.

It is patently false to say Heroic was invalid for the entirety of SL. Even Heroic raiders have had advantages over M+ for the entirety of this expansion. This change is basically Blizzard saying, "oh, we're okay with this and we're giving raiders another 4 item levels for free too."

- - - Updated - - -

What I think would be the only sane option is that Mythic raids should move for cosmetics / bragging rights only - similar to M+ higher than 15 (soon 18) - just cap ilvl on heroic and if someone, and his 19 buddies wants to challenge themselves with big epic fights for some cool looking transmogs - let them have it.

It would also technically help Blizzard with tuning the fights having the same group potential max ilvl from start to finish, would allow to design fights more around mechanics, than potential numbers a group could have at that specific moment of the season.
Not to mention that also solves the problem of high m+ gear being easier to attain than low-mid mythic raid ones.

CModes have already proven that cosmetic rewards are not a meaningful drive for players in this game. I'd wager most RWF guilds would dissolve instantly if they went this route as well. I agree it solves some problems but it also introduces a lot of others. This game has lived off of a vertical progression system since its inception and I just cannot see a world where they yeet that in favor of a middle-of-the-road solution that pleases almost nobody.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

Heroic raiding WAS very much obsolete in much of Shadowlands thanks to mythic+ having higher ilvl gear than the vast majority of heroic raids and is much easier to obtain.

Others have mentioned it I guess, but this is just super wrong on basically every level. Raid gear was all that mattered for all of season 2 lol.

Raids have also had:
1) the best trinkets, sometimes by an enormous margin
2) the bow and 2h

etc

My priest is using the anduin ring and two raid trinkets at a super low ilvl because they are still better than any vault gear.

[Netherblood]

I agree on the easy classic thing, but it is also a highly self selected audience - no one sticks around in classic who doesn't want to raid. Retail has a much broader subset of players with varying interests, most of whom aren't interested in raiding.

Most of the loot issues here tho stem from m+ being a subset or pve rather than its own thing like pvp. But in s2, when raid loot was by far the best for raiding (thanks to gems and sockets) it was pretty much considered a disaster since they changed that immediately in S3 (and the gem system designer left the company lol).

I'd rather they separate M+ and raid loot fully, and have loot from M+ gain ilvl while inside M+ like pvp loot in pvp. The new change they just posted to loot means every mythic raider has to do 8 20s weekly and they upped the scaling past +10s to 10% from 8%. My raid team is already revolting at the though of having to do 8 20s a week especially on non meta M+ classes. Since good raid classes are not always good in M+.

Just separate the 2 systems, forcing M+ players to raid or raiders to hard grind M+ isn't good.

[Ludek]

CModes have already proven that cosmetic rewards are not a meaningful drive for players in this game. I'd wager most RWF guilds would dissolve instantly if they went this route as well. I agree it solves some problems but it also introduces a lot of others. This game has lived off of a vertical progression system since its inception and I just cannot see a world where they yeet that in favor of a middle-of-the-road solution that pleases almost nobody.

Yet so few people are currently even picking up mythic raids, the impact would be marginal imo. Challange modes failed, because back then noone took dungeons as valid endgame activity - if you look at M+, actually more people tend to push keys for bragging rights, than people are raiding mythic for top end gear.

[Relapses]

Yet so few people are currently even picking up mythic raids, the impact would be marginal imo. Challange modes failed, because back then noone took dungeons as valid endgame activity - if you look at M+, actually more people tend to push keys for bragging rights, than people are raiding mythic for top end gear.

I agree that Mythic has been struggling and will likely continue to struggle without major changes. That doesn't mean we should throw out the baby with the bath water, y'know? Vertical progression is still the backbone of this game. What you're suggesting would essentially turn WoW into M+: The Video Game. And while I can't tell you how much I'd fucking love that, I also can't help but think this would ultimately be bad for the game's longterm health. (Again, the RWF alone and all the exposure it gets likely justifies Mythic raiding's existence on its own.)

Thanks for the update on the Blue post, btw. I've updated the OP with some of my thoughts.

- - - Updated - - -

I agree. The percentages are very malleable but I'm willing to bet that they're overall trying to make lower keys easier.
If you take a close look, right now in SL low level keys give item level upgrades at each key level and then later, every other key.
In DF it's linear, every other key level starting from 2 will give item level upgrades every even numbered key. So I think to make up for it, they're stretching out those first few levels.
Instead of the gear upgrades being easier, the key levels are easier.

Looks like they're going the polar opposite direction if the recent Blue post is any indication. Buckle in for bad times, my dudes.

[SoulSoBreezy]

Looks like they're going the polar opposite direction if the recent Blue post is any indication. Buckle in for bad times, my dudes.

Yeah I just posted a thing on it. hit the link, like and subcribe! j/k
I'm still sort of reacting to it in my head, but if people've got to do a 20 to get that much closer to mythic level gear, I'm all for it.
Totally anecdotal but a 15 giving top end heroic gear sounds like I'm the target audience in terms of skill lol.
What I find distressing FOR people is that mythic raiders are going to be outright behind. Before this post they would already need to do m+ to get the BiS pieces, now that's been amplified by a whole item level bracket.

[Jester Joe]

So all of you all only talking about season 2 conveniently forgetting the past 6+ months of the game, or maybe you haven't played since 2021, where m+ has outshone heroic raiding BY FAR. Even your list betrays you as I can make the exact same argument for mythic plus, as there were/are SEVERAL trinkets that are bis that only come from there by an enormous margin for many specs. And, while weapons I may give raids the edge overall (although again, some specs have bis weapons from m+), that is one slot out of 16? lol

Also I never said m+ outshone heroic raiding for "the entirety of SL" l2read and stop putting words in my mouth

Obsolete would make it pointless to do at all.

Season 3 and 4 had strong raid pieces too , the only real "must have" from m+ would be the mechagon rings.

[Relapses]

So all of you all only talking about season 2 conveniently forgetting the past 6+ months of the game, or maybe you haven't played since 2021, where m+ has outshone heroic raiding BY FAR. Even your list betrays you as I can make the exact same argument for mythic plus, as there were/are SEVERAL trinkets that are bis that only come from there by an enormous margin for many specs. And, while weapons I may give raids the edge overall (although again, some specs have bis weapons from m+), that is one slot out of 16? lol

Also I never said m+ outshone heroic raiding for "the entirety of SL" l2read and stop putting words in my mouth

Bro, it's okay to be wrong on the internet. You used the word 'obsolete.' It wasn't. End of.

[Relapses]

Yeah I just posted a thing on it. hit the link, like and subcribe! j/k
I'm still sort of reacting to it in my head, but if people've got to do a 20 to get that much closer to mythic level gear, I'm all for it.
Totally anecdotal but a 15 giving top end heroic gear sounds like I'm the target audience in terms of skill lol.
What I find distressing FOR people is that mythic raiders are going to be outright behind. Before this post they would already need to do m+ to get the BiS pieces, now that's been amplified by a whole item level bracket.

Always be plugging. :-)

But yeah. I'm happy with these changes because most of the stuff that I was concerned about were addressed. The extra Tier of upgrades thru VP is sick as fuck. This is going to be weird for anybody not currently clearing 20s, though.

Additionally, I think that a lot of people even currently clearing 20s are going to be in for a surprise because 20s at the moment are pretty easy (comparatively speaking). I think this might be better for longterm health, though this has a possibility of burning out raiders as this kind of makes clearing M+ weekly even more mandatory.

[Jester Joe]

For many players it was seen that way. Why suffer through a raid when you can get higher ilvl gear, for the most part, from just doing dungeons?

I'm not making any of this up I'm just repeating what I have heard and been told countless times in the past two seasons.

Repeating what people say? On the internet? Sheeeeeeeeeeesh.

But really, people saying it doesn't suddenly mean that it's true, especially when it comes to a community that's as kneejerk as the WoW one who thought they HAD to do all the dailies every day in MoP.

If you're describing a raid as "suffering" though, maybe the issue is the content itself and not the reward?

[Relapses]

For many players it was seen that way. Why suffer through a raid when you can get higher ilvl gear, for the most part, from just doing dungeons?

I'm not making any of this up I'm just repeating what I have heard and been told countless times in the past two seasons.

What part of anything you quoted there was wrong? You keep wanting to focus on me every time we interact. Stay focused on the content of my discussion please.

The criticism is that you keep using exaggeratory language like "obsolete" and "BY FAR" when the reality is far more dull. In almost every situation when comparing gear from the two it's either/or choice or the Heroic piece was just straight up better than its M+ counterpart. Additionally, S3 Heroic raiders had access to their 4 pieces way, way, way before M+'ers because of how long the Creation Catalyst took to roll out and Dinars in S4 have made Heroic raiding all but mandatory for a few specs because of how powerful certain trinkets and weapons are. (Not to mention that you can catalyze the higher item level stuff from each of last couple bosses in the three Fated raids.)

edit: The overall point you were making is also kind of moot anyway since Blizzard just came out and said they're making M+ rewards scale even further into Heroic raiding territory and there will be a way for M+ers to get within 2 or 3 item levels of Mythic raiders come DF.

[shino128]

so +20 is the highest for the weekly vault??

https://www.bluetracker.gg/wow/topic...gameplay-mode/

[Relapses]

so +20 is the highest for the weekly vault??

https://www.bluetracker.gg/wow/topic...gameplay-mode/

Yeah, I've already updated the OP. I can't change the thread title though.