Scale Up with the New Dracthyr Evoker

[Relapses]

People shouldn't steal, yet they do. People shouldn't kill, yet they do. People shouldn't betray, yet they do. People shouldn't abuse, yet they do. Prevention is 1 thing, learning how to deal with shit is another.

You do realize that this kind of justification paves the way for fascism, right? This is definitely not the moral high ground you seem to think it is.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Ah, apologies, American-by-mind i should have said.

an yes American by mind you say as you act like every one is an American and say that’s something only Americans do.

Hey you tried to make a post about looks about something that has nothing to do with looks by dragging in innocent gay people by their hair, can't blame me for that.

I replied to a post about how they looked queer after a post about how they looked gay, it’s only you and a couple other making it about looks and treating gay and queer interchangeable with drag queen.

[Relapses]

"Victim blaming" is the perfect excuse to create more victims by not preparing people for the realities of this world.

Call me idealistic but I'd rather the only reality anybody has to contend with is one where we're not prejudiced against one another for things completely out of our control.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Yes, exactly.
So how are gays again relevant to this discussion about drac'thyr who are anything but bearish?

You needn't even have an opinion on gays at all to see their (=drac'thyr) abberantly effeminate looks can be considered very distasteful.

And that has everything to do with drag queens and trans-types and nothing to do with the saner parts of the alphabet soup.

Gay people don’t work on a binary of bear or effeminate so the gay people I personally know wouldn’t really have any thing to do with the discussion.

But other then that you’d have to ask the people who said they were gay queer and drag queens interchangeably what being gays have to do with them.

[Razzako]

Why is it "bigotry" or "fragility" when someone doesn't like the aesthetics of something and chooses not to partake in that something? I mean..it's aesthetics. By definition, 100% subjective. If I don't like white t-shirts and prefer black t-shirts, I will go buy and use black t-shirts. I'm not a bigot, or fragile towards white t-shirts, simply because I choose their black counterparts. Tastes differ among humans eh. It's what makes us unique.

On topic, I walked into Blackwing Lair in 2005 in OG vanilla. I was 14 years old. When I saw the drakonid adds on Razorgore I was like "DAMN THATS SOOOOOOO COOOOOOL!". Swinging their double-bladed staves, cleaving through our tanks in full Might gear like they were butter. That's badass. Even the Dragonspawns, the Onyxia trash was ok. It's a shame - I'd give the Drac'thyr a try if they were an updated model of Broodlord Lashlayer, but as they are, it's just not in my tastes. I don't like them.

And I'm not a bigot or fragile for this point of view. We're talking aesthetics, remember.

You're arguing about something else that has nothing to do, nobody is saying not liking something automatically makes you a bigot lol.

You don't white shirts because you prefer the color black. I don't like Dracthyr because I think they look more like lizards than dragons (think of the CRPG Divinity). He doesn't like Dracthyr because he thinks they look queer.

Which one is the bigot?

[qwerty123456]

cause actual qoutes from this thread
"The male version looks so gay. That's stupid because much too woke."
"And yes the male versions look gay, as if they are part of the Azerothian's Drag Race"
"or the pose just looks too gay, and that has been a thing people have been saying since TBC."
"They do look gay, I'm not gay so I wont be playing one because i don't want my character looking like some fem twink."
"Because i don't like how queer and gay the visage forms look"

They would be perfectly normal complaints if they were
"The male version looks so bad. That's stupid."
"And yes the male versions look bad"
"or the pose just looks bad, and that has been a thing people have been saying since TBC."
"They do look bad, I wont be playing one because i don't want my character looking bad."
"Because i don't like how bad the visage forms look"


all valid complaints, these would be perfectly fine, but the feel to add that you dislike them BECAUSE they are "gay" suddenly makes it obvious, you don't dislike it cause you think it is "bad" you dislike it cause you think it is "gay"

In all fairness it's much easier to picture the type of "bad" they see in the character then in your examples. From the posts you linked it seems they are referencing the flamboyant-ness of the models which obviously not all gay people are but a significant proportion were/are as to create an image/stereotype in popular culture. While bad could literally mean anything.

Personally I think they look like scene girls going to a medieval fantasy fair. Actually scratch that I think they look like Worf and Rocky Dennis fucked a bunch of scene girls who dress their kids up like themselves and the resulting children when to a high fantasy fair with their moms.

Even if you don't know Worf, Rocky Dennis, or Scene girls if you were to look them up you can easily determine what my problems with the models are by comparing them to the Dracthyr. Someone giving bigoted feedback (whether intentional or unintentional) is actually giving more helpful feedback then someone who in order to be more respectful cuts their feedback down to good/bad/ok.

[Dalinos]

Being so well versed in Ancient History, surely you must know what the great Plato, father of philosophy, said about manliness. And it was, quote:

"Men who are a section of that double nature which was once called androgynous [made up of a man and a woman] are lovers of women, adulterers are generally of this breed, and also adulterous women who lust after men. The women who are a section of the woman do not care for men, but have female attachments: the female companions [that is, lesbians] are of this sort. But they who are a section of the male follow the male, and while they are young, being slices of the original man, they have affection for men and embrace them, and these are the best of boys and youths, because they have the most manly nature."

Oh I'm well aware. I have nothing against homosexuality. When my dog passed at the age of 20 years old, all my mates were there to help me, support me and share in my grief. He was their dog as much as he was mine. Please, find ONE post of mine where I say anything negative about homosexuality, or about men showing affection to one another. I implore you. Newsflash? I haven't. I just said that it's dishonest to turn "Drac'thyr don't look like the buffed BWL Drakonids, I dont like them" to some gender ideology bullshit.

- - - Updated - - -

You're arguing about something else that has nothing to do, nobody is saying not liking something automatically makes you a bigot lol.

You don't white shirts because you prefer the color black. I don't like Dracthyr because I think they look more like lizards than dragons (think of the CRPG Divinity). He doesn't like Dracthyr because he thinks they look queer.

Which one is the bigot?

Noone is. You are free to like or dislike anything for whatever reason you see fit. That is what it means to live in a free country, where people don't control your thoughts. I'm not about to control anyone's thoughts. Actions can be policed. Thoughts? Not so much. It's a dangerous, dangerous time when people force what you have to think.

[Rageonit]

Even if you don't know Worf, Rocky Dennis, or Scene girls if you were to look them up you can easily determine what my problems with the models are by comparing them to the Dracthyr.

It's still a weird argument, considering you can make them with zero adorns, glitter and whatever. And it's the same with people here - they don't even criticize the actual visage form (because they never seen it in game); they criticize a promotional image with a bunch of faces with a lot of adorns and glitter (to showcase what kind of customization you can have). The actual visage form doesn't have to look anything like that.

[loras]

Gay people don’t work on a binary of bear or effeminate so the gay people I personally know wouldn’t really have any thing to do with the discussion.

But other then that you’d have to ask the people who said they were gay queer and drag queens interchangeably what being gays have to do with them.

Few things work by false dichotomy, but the point remains that we were talking about looks, and as your own comment illustrates "gayness" does not correlate with looks. So naturally it follows that it was not a discussion about gay people at all, and dragging them in was rather weird to say the least. A strawman if i'm not mistaken.

Anyway it's clear you've no real content to you by now so all you can do is attempt to misdirect and evade, so i suppose it's not worth any more of my time.
Pity, i just brought snacks.

[Dalinos]

You do realize that this kind of justification paves the way for fascism, right? This is definitely not the moral high ground you seem to think it is.

What the hell are you on about? The world is not some happy place where everything is rosy and smells like freshly ground coffee beans. It's fucking harsh out there man. If you don't know how to deal with shit, others who do will eat you up. It's a dog-eat-dog world out there man. You should try going out and seeing for yourself. It never hurts to be prepared to deal with situations, instead of saying "Well he SHOULDNT have done that". Well guess what. He did. Whatever X is. And now you gotta deal with that. So deal with it.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Few things work by false dichotomy, but the point remains that we were talking about looks, and as your own comment illustrates "gayness" does not correlate with looks. So naturally it follows that it was not a discussion about gay people at all, and dragging them in was rather weird to say the least. A strawman if i'm not mistaken.

Anyway it's clear you've no real content to you by now so all you can do is attempt to misdirect and evade, so i suppose it's not worth any more of my time.
Pity, i just brought snacks.

The poster I originally implied to involved gay/queer people saying he wasn’t one so wouldn’t play the race, if you want to pretend that I was the one dragging them in go ahead I can’t stop you.

Though it’s pretty clear you just don’t want to embarrass your self further after saying “gay people don’t like there own sex, gay people shouldn’t be interchanged with drag queens when it was you interchanging them, and Americans treat non Americans like Americans while you do exactly that.

[tomten]

It's not fragility. It's bigotry. That's all it is.

So by that logic, if I don't want to date a trans person? I'm a bigot?
Even for you, that's a wild stretch bro...

- - - Updated - - -

Your comparing clowns at a bank with avoiding a race because it reminds you of gay/queer people.

If the idea of gay/queer people upsets you to this extent your fragile and there’s no reasonable way around that.

The irony and hypocrisy in this thread is surreal.
If I misgender someone, I can get arrested in some countries. Certainly banned here.
If I say I don't want to play something because it looks a certain way and its something I feel zero connection to. I'm a bigot?
And we're the fragile ones? Cool story.

[FelPlague]

In all fairness it's much easier to picture the type of "bad" they see in the character then in your examples. From the posts you linked it seems they are referencing the flamboyant-ness of the models which obviously not all gay people are but a significant proportion were/are as to create an image/stereotype in popular culture. While bad could literally mean anything.

Personally I think they look like scene girls going to a medieval fantasy fair. Actually scratch that I think they look like Worf and Rocky Dennis fucked a bunch of scene girls who dress their kids up like themselves and the resulting children when to a high fantasy fair with their moms.

Even if you don't know Worf, Rocky Dennis, or Scene girls if you were to look them up you can easily determine what my problems with the models are by comparing them to the Dracthyr. Someone giving bigoted feedback (whether intentional or unintentional) is actually giving more helpful feedback then someone who in order to be more respectful cuts their feedback down to good/bad/ok.

Sure if you do not like flamboyant race go ahead, never mind the fact you can get rid of that if you wish by simply removing the colours.

But say you do not like it because it is flamboyant, or too colourful, saying "Because i don't like how queer and gay the visage forms look" it is obvious why you really hate it.


Cause the issue is not that they hate that it is flamboyant, which is a legitimate complaint, the issue is that they portray that only gay people can be flamboyant, and that they hate it not because it is flamboyant, but because it is gay.
That changes it from "i hate it because it is flamboyant" to "I hate gay people, because they are flamboyant"

wanna point out, it is very easy to make them not flamboyant.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

The irony and hypocrisy in this thread is surreal.
If I misgender someone, I can get arrested in some countries. Certainly banned here.
If I say I don't want to play something because it looks a certain way and its something I feel zero connection to. I'm a bigot?
And we're the fragile ones? Cool story.

I mean you see your self as such a victim you had to bring up trans people to cry about how you can’t be mean to them.

So Yes if your looking for an opportunity to cry about how oppressed you are and will get banned/arrested in some country for misgendering people you are incredibly fragile.

[Kathranis]

Noone is. You are free to like or dislike anything for whatever reason you see fit. That is what it means to live in a free country, where people don't control your thoughts. I'm not about to control anyone's thoughts. Actions can be policed. Thoughts? Not so much. It's a dangerous, dangerous time when people force what you have to think.

Are you literally trying to argue that bigots aren't bigots because they have the right to hate whatever group they want?

Because if you are prejudiced against an entire class of people for their immutable characteristics, even if that's within your rights, you're still a bigot.

If I misgender someone, I can get arrested in some countries.

Yeah, no. One deadbeat dad, a right wing journalist, got arrested in Canada for violating a court order preventing him from discussing his child's hormone therapy in the media because it was causing them emotional distress and one man in Norway got arrested for persistently harassing a transgender person online in violation of their hate speech laws.

You're not going to go to jail if you misgender someone, especially if it's just an accident. Maybe if you repeatedly harass someone for being trans, but that's also behavior that you don't have to engage in and frankly should never engage in.

Fact is that if you're this scared of trans people you probably live somewhere where you'll never meet a trans person to begin with, meaning the only interactions you're having with trans people are voluntary and online.

So by that logic, if I don't want to date a trans person? I'm a bigot?

Let's worry about you getting a date in the first place before you start throwing out hypotheticals about dating trans people, because I'm pretty confident that's a problem you're never going to run into.

[FelPlague]

The irony and hypocrisy in this thread is surreal.
If I misgender someone, I can get arrested in some countries. Certainly banned here.
If I say I don't want to play something because it looks a certain way and its something I feel zero connection to. I'm a bigot?
And we're the fragile ones? Cool story.

Come the fuck on mate.
Saying you do not like something cause it looks bad, cause you think it is too flamboyant, cause you think it is too thin, cause you think it is lame, is fine.
Saying you don't like something because "it is queer and gay, and a drag queen" is not fine.

also in no country do you get arrested for misgendering someone, nor do i think you could even get banned for it on here, we don't have pronouns on our profiles, nor do i think anyone here really cares, im sure if someone told you they were female and you kept calling them he, and making a point of doing so, over and over and over, a mod may get involved, but otherwise you are good.

as listed above, the two people who have been, were for good reason, one of them near me, and it was not cause he misgendered them, but because he kept harrasing his own child over media, causing again HIS OWN CHILD mental distress, because they were/are wishing to transition.

[Razzako]

Noone is. You are free to like or dislike anything for whatever reason you see fit. That is what it means to live in a free country, where people don't control your thoughts. I'm not about to control anyone's thoughts. Actions can be policed. Thoughts? Not so much. It's a dangerous, dangerous time when people force what you have to think.

You really don't know what you're arguing about. An individual is free to like or dislike, or feel however that person pleases, no one is contesting that, but that's not even the point. You say "dangerous time when people force what you have to think", but what the fuck man? Who's forcing anything on anyone? People are just calling out a bigot, stop going into this silly straw man regarding free thinking, it's not even being threatened.

[Kathranis]

wanna point out, it is very easy to make them not flamboyant.
-snip-

I think a lot of people haven't actually given them a chance. I wasn't a huge fan of the race until I actually started playing around with the customization options.





This is the Bronze / Infinite Dracthyr I made a while back.

And I didn't make these, but some other examples of how actually draconic you can make them:

[FelPlague]

-snip-

here is mine from the alpha for example, shoulders and staff and even belt I would 100% replace, but I do not have many ail mogs, nor could we use them during alpha.
I didnt even choose the bulkiest option cause i was testing out how the less bulky ones looked in armor.

[qwerty123456]

It's still a weird argument, considering you can make them with zero adorns, glitter and whatever. And it's the same with people here - they don't even criticize the actual visage form (because they never seen it in game); they criticize a promotional image with a bunch of faces with a lot of adorns and glitter (to showcase what kind of customization you can have). The actual visage form doesn't have to look anything like that.

You can't fully remove the scales on the head. You can however give them a more muted color and mostly hide it with some hair options. And thats Blizzards fault for not showing how "tame" you can make them. If they make a firbolg race and only show off the carebear color options even though you can make a normal Firbolg its not the players fault for getting upset about the race options especially if they feel there shouldn't be any carebear options in the first place.

But really there is really no point in Dracthyr having a visage form if they don't use it to completely blend in since Dracthyr are already bipedal and close to the mortal races in height. They should have given them all mortal race options and maybe a few horn scale options. They also should have full transmog options since the armor they wear is an illusion but Blizzard is lazy.

Sure if you do not like flamboyant race go ahead, never mind the fact you can get rid of that if you wish by simply removing the colours.

But say you do not like it because it is flamboyant, or too colourful, saying "Because i don't like how queer and gay the visage forms look" it is obvious why you really hate it.


Cause the issue is not that they hate that it is flamboyant, which is a legitimate complaint, the issue is that they portray that only gay people can be flamboyant, and that they hate it not because it is flamboyant, but because it is gay.
That changes it from "i hate it because it is flamboyant" to "I hate gay people, because they are flamboyant"

wanna point out, it is very easy to make them not flamboyant.

That's assuming they know the word flamboyant and what it means. And generally speaking a flamboyant gay man typically has a far more drastic appearance than a flamboyant straight man. If you were to google both I highly doubt you wouldn't be able to tell the difference and which one looks closer to a Dracthyr visage form.

Certainly some of them hate it cause its "gay" that doesn't mean all of them do. I like Scene girls, I like Worf and used them as an example of what they look like even though I hate the dracthyr appearances. If I say I hate them because they look rednecky that doesn't necessarily mean I hate rednecks. It will however help you see the traits I don't like about them based on your perception of them like missing teeth, a beard, flannel or a wifebeater, etc...

Yes you can have more muted hair/scale colors and remove all the jewelry but you can't fully remove the scales or the ear fins??(not sure what to call them). The problem is Blizzard isn't showing that to them in the preview images. Infact if you didn't do any research you would assume you are forced to have body scales based on the preview which luckily you can remove just not the scale skullcap thing. You can't really blame people for getting upset if Blizzard is only showing the flash.

here is mine from the alpha for example, shoulders and staff and even belt I would 100% replace, but I do not have many ail mogs, nor could we use them during alpha.
I didnt even choose the bulkiest option cause i was testing out how the less bulky ones looked in armor.

I didn't play in the alpha. Lorewise are they actually wearing armor that shapeshifts or is it an illusion they cast on their normal Dracthyr form? I don't understand why they half assed the transmog, and vision form and shit on a race that is creating 99% of it with magic.