Give the Horde better leaders.

[Feanoro]

I kind of wonder why Sylvanas never raised Garithos

Lore reason, he was torn to bits and eaten by her ghouls.

Real world reason, he said not nice things to Danuser's waifu.

[Raisei]

I kind of wonder why Sylvanas never raised Garithos...that would have opened up lots of new story ideas, such as their future interactions with Kael'thas and the other blood elves, whether Nathanos and Garithos ever knew / heard of each other; Garithos and his conflict with the Alliance, etc.

Ah yes. If the Horde needs one thing, it is more racists egomaniacs. With Garrosh gone there surely is a spot open. He could be the next Warchief.

[Grazrug]

The only thing she wanted N'zoth to do was kill people on both sides and as a useful distraction, while she went to Icecrown. It's not like she needed the Old God to do something specific, he was just another useful tool for an extra portion of souls to the Maw.
It is even questionable if she ever needed the whole war and the Horde. The Jailer sucked up souls for quite some time since Legion, with Denathrius saving up most of the anima he got too for who knows how many years and that were souls from the entire cosmos, whole other planets. Teldrassil and the victims of the Blood War seem like a drop in the ocean in comparison.
The fun thing would have come if N'zoth had actually won and made everyone on Azeroth his flesh puppets. I do not see the Jailer winning against that.

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Well, that is only one pair. Sylvanas carries the balls and ovaries of the entire Horde, considering how only Baine and Saurfang had enough of their balls left to speak up against her, while everyone else was silent.

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That WAS her goal. Freeing us from the shackles of mortality in a new universe where there is neither life nor death. Of course that was never the Jailer's goal and she was an idiot for believing the guy obsessed with chains would do anything but enslave the cosmos to his will and she was an idiot for thinking that this goal justified any and all sacrifices.

Baine and Saurfang didn't act to save the Horde. They acted to save their own honor and their close personal ties to the alliance. If they actually cared about the Horde they would have helped to make sure the Alliance can never raise arms against the Horde ever again.

[VladlTutushkin]

Baine and Saurfang didn't act to save the Horde. They acted to save their own honor and their close personal ties to the alliance. If they actually cared about the Horde they would have helped to make sure the Alliance can never raise arms against the Horde ever again.

Situation did not allowed for that at the moment. They could have either doomed both factions to die and please the Jailer or save both factions. There was no other options.

[Arlette]

Baine and Saurfang didn't act to save the Horde. They acted to save their own honor and their close personal ties to the alliance. If they actually cared about the Horde they would have helped to make sure the Alliance can never raise arms against the Horde ever again.

God posts like this feel so old.

As in I've been reading weird larpy 'For the horde!!!!' shit since 2010.

It's been 12 years can you move on yet.

[Skytotem]

Was talking on Discord with a friend and they pretty perfectly summed up the problem with WoW's characterization.

The characters are written to exemplify morals in contexts outside the actual story.

Baine is a writer's ideal of a good person in the face of nationalism.

Calia represents not being bitter and letting loss define you.

But neither of them work as CHARACTERS in the context of the story.

They're written to hammer in a moral or portray a moral stance... but Blizz never bothers to make them FIT the story or the world.

[Raisei]

Baine and Saurfang didn't act to save the Horde. They acted to save their own honor and their close personal ties to the alliance. If they actually cared about the Horde they would have helped to make sure the Alliance can never raise arms against the Horde ever again.

You are actually not too wrong here. If they hadn't acted then the Alliance would never have been able to raise arms again. But also there would not have been any Horde anymore or any other life on Azeroth.

Sylvanas' goal was the eradication of all life on Azeroth. That includes the Horde. She never cared about the Horde or any Living Being. From the start her only loyalty was to herself.

She admits to this at Windrunner Spire, in a cutscene I am sure you have seen, because I am certain beyond doubt that you played the Loyalist questline. But in case you have not:



But I know you are physically incapable of admitting this simple fact even though Sylvanas herself says the words. You will either ignore it or pretend it did not happen. It would actually be quite the surprise for you to accept reality as it is, instead of pretending that your headcannon is reality. But alas.

[Flurryfang]

You are actually not too wrong here. If they hadn't acted then the Alliance would never have been able to raise arms again. But also there would not have been any Horde anymore or any other life on Azeroth.

Sylvanas' goal was the eradication of all life on Azeroth. That includes the Horde. She never cared about the Horde or any Living Being. From the start her only loyalty was to herself.

She admits to this at Windrunner Spire, in a cutscene I am sure you have seen, because I am certain beyond doubt that you played the Loyalist questline. But in case you have not:



But I know you are physically incapable of admitting this simple fact even though Sylvanas herself says the words. You will either ignore it or pretend it did not happen. It would actually be quite the surprise for you to accept reality as it is, instead of pretending that your headcannon is reality. But alas.

But hey, imagine if Sylvanas was not a complete "Kill everybody!" psyko? What if the loyalist campaign was justified with her inital point, that the world is unsafe if the Horde and Alliance keep fighting each other for supremacy?

It could create an interesting character point of view and make a good leader for the Horde. Cause that is what the Horde has always been, a place for people to feel safe. What if the Horde had a leader, that actually took that stand point and ran with it, making decisions, whether good or bad, around the idea, that safety is not assured in this world and the Horde has to fight to achieve it, especially after the big loses the Horde has taken through the ages.

[Grazrug]

God posts like this feel so old.

As in I've been reading weird larpy 'For the horde!!!!' shit since 2010.

It's been 12 years can you move on yet.

No. I can't move on. My blood pressure rises every time I see alliance leaders on Horde territory acting like they are welcome there. Bob and Thalyssra are just as bad as Baine. They betrayed their allies so their friendship with the humans can prosper.

[VladlTutushkin]

But hey, imagine if Sylvanas was not a complete "Kill everybody!" psyko? What if the loyalist campaign was justified with her inital point, that the world is unsafe if the Horde and Alliance keep fighting each other for supremacy?

It could create an interesting character point of view and make a good leader for the Horde. Cause that is what the Horde has always been, a place for people to feel safe. What if the Horde had a leader, that actually took that stand point and ran with it, making decisions, whether good or bad, around the idea, that safety is not assured in this world and the Horde has to fight to achieve it, especially after the big loses the Horde has taken through the ages.

Anybody who takes the idea of “world will never be safe as long as another faction exists” and goes to “fix” it through genocide and total war is a moron and a detriment to their faction as is, even without any external influence.

Cause thats the dumbest line of thought after flat Earth.

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No. I can't move on. My blood pressure rises every time I see alliance leaders on Horde territory acting like they are welcome there. Bob and Thalyssra are just as bad as Baine. They betrayed their allies so their friendship with the humans can prosper.

Well if everybody in your faction leadership betrayed you, than maybe you should move on with the program before you end up in a slammer.

[Shadowferal]

They betrayed their allies so their friendship with the humans can prosper.

And Sylvanas was your bestest of buds...force feeding you into the "hungering darkness." Congratulations! Your cognitive dissonance is genuine.

[Flurryfang]

Anybody who takes the idea of “world will never be safe as long as another faction exists” and goes to “fix” it through genocide and total war is a moron and a detriment to their faction as is, even without any external influence.

Cause thats the dumbest line of thought after flat Earth.

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Well if everybody in your faction leadership betrayed you, than maybe you should move on with the program before you end up in a slammer.

Indeed, which is why both Garrosh and Sylvanas failed. But that does not mean that the idea of protection through intimidation and show of strength is a bad idea. The war in Ashenvale had a somewhat good argument, as pushing the alliance out of Kalimdor, but was tarnished with the burning of Teldrassil.

Again, imagine a Horde leader, who stopped at Auberdine, who let the elves escape to Teldrassil and instead just said "Kalimdor is off limits, but we will leave you alone on your little islands". Sure, it would create a cold-war like situation, but it would make for a story, where both sides could argue being in the right.

Blizzard have always failed the Horde by making their leaders extremes, becomming obvious bad guys and remove any argument that could support their actions. That does not have to be the case in the future. War is bad, but it can easily be portrayed as the lesser evil in the right circumstanses.

[Dancaris]

We need not new leaders, but to give some balls to existing ones.
Make Baine and Thrall actually care about their people and not Alliance. Make them stand for them and not licking boots for Alliance masters.
Make Calia put herself to scarlet monastery, while Lillian take the charge of Forsaken.
Make Rokhan be wc3 Rokhan and be unpatien and unpolite troll for once. As Rastakhan was before his bossfight.
Gazlowe is golden tho, Lorthemar and Thalyssra are good.
Make Talanji be honest with Rokhan and make a baby half-darkspear half-zandalari.
Mayla and Geyara can go to hell, dont care about them and never will be, as blant they are.

[Shadowferal]

We need not new leaders, but to give some balls to existing ones.

The only time the horde ever showed well was when they were defeated...or as independent as they were in "Wrathgate" when orcs joined humans against the Lich King. To be betrayed by forsaken. A hell of a ongoing theme by a fellow horde member...and of course the orcs tolerate treachery...more so than honor.

[Grazrug]

Anybody who takes the idea of “world will never be safe as long as another faction exists” and goes to “fix” it through genocide and total war is a moron and a detriment to their faction as is, even without any external influence.

Cause thats the dumbest line of thought after flat Earth.

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Well if everybody in your faction leadership betrayed you, than maybe you should move on with the program before you end up in a slammer.

I don't need to accept anything. What ai need is the total defeat of the alliance.

[VladlTutushkin]

Indeed, which is why both Garrosh and Sylvanas failed. But that does not mean that the idea of protection through intimidation and show of strength is a bad idea. The war in Ashenvale had a somewhat good argument, as pushing the alliance out of Kalimdor, but was tarnished with the burning of Teldrassil.

Again, imagine a Horde leader, who stopped at Auberdine, who let the elves escape to Teldrassil and instead just said "Kalimdor is off limits, but we will leave you alone on your little islands". Sure, it would create a cold-war like situation, but it would make for a story, where both sides could argue being in the right.

Blizzard have always failed the Horde by making their leaders extremes, becomming obvious bad guys and remove any argument that could support their actions. That does not have to be the case in the future. War is bad, but it can easily be portrayed as the lesser evil in the right circumstanses.

Trying to restrict night elves from Ashenvale is like trying to remove blood elves from Silvermoon.

Basically any kind of Horde attack on Ashenvale creates the situation similar to Scourge vs Blood elves, aka situation that can only end with total annihilation of one side over the land dispute.

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I don't need to accept anything. What ai need is the total defeat of the alliance.

Oh no, you have no choice in that. You either accept or roleplay your character being killed or imprisoned.

[Shadowferal]

Oh no, you have no choice in that. You either accept or roleplay your character being killed or imprisoned.

Or he could accept being a slave to the Jailer...

[VladlTutushkin]

Or he could accept being a slave to the Jailer...

Than he should basically become a mindless husk in the Maw now after we turned Jailer off.

[Arlette]

No. I can't move on. My blood pressure rises every time I see alliance leaders on Horde territory acting like they are welcome there. Bob and Thalyssra are just as bad as Baine. They betrayed their allies so their friendship with the humans can prosper.

I mean...I don't know how to engage with somebody flatout delusionally detached from reality.

So I guess that's it.

Maybe just...stop? I don't know how to help you dude.

[Flurryfang]

Trying to restrict night elves from Ashenvale is like trying to remove blood elves from Silvermoon.

Basically any kind of Horde attack on Ashenvale creates the situation similar to Scourge vs Blood elves, aka situation that can only end with total annihilation of one side over the land dispute.

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Oh no, you have no choice in that. You either accept or roleplay your character being killed or imprisoned.

Well, removing blood elves from Silvermoon would make interesting story moments to be honest and make the Alliance a bit of a duplex faction. In a world, where teldrassil did not burn, that would maybe have been an actual plausible reaction to the entire war on Kalimdor

The horde and alliance have fought over Ashenvale since forever, so no, it does not create a Scourge vs blood elves situation at all, especially since they have Teldrassil. The ashenvale war did not have to be about total annihilation or genocide, cause the elves still have Hyjal and their own isles. Silvermoon is the heart of the Blood elves and without, they have nothing left.

To be honest, you might think you are making counter arguments, but you are just actually making really cool scenarios, that would make for interesting stories and development of the world BFA could have been a very interesting expansion, where the focus could have been on the Horde trying to take full control of Kalimdor while the Alliance did the same with Eastern Kingdoms. The counter-argument to that could be interesting, where anti-isolation questions would come up constantly vs the simply solution to the war by seperating the factions on their own continent.