Give the Horde better leaders.

[Grazrug]

I mean...I don't know how to engage with somebody flatout delusionally detached from reality.

So I guess that's it.

Maybe just...stop? I don't know how to help you dude.

The reality is that the Horde was humiliated to make the alliance look good. And I will fight until we get our due.

[VladlTutushkin]

Well, removing blood elves from Silvermoon would make interesting story moments to be honest and make the Alliance a bit of a duplex faction. In a world, where teldrassil did not burn, that would maybe have been an actual plausible reaction to the entire war on Kalimdor

The horde and alliance have fought over Ashenvale since forever, so no, it does not create a Scourge vs blood elves situation at all, especially since they have Teldrassil. The ashenvale war did not have to be about total annihilation or genocide, cause the elves still have Hyjal and their own isles. Silvermoon is the heart of the Blood elves and without, they have nothing left.

To be honest, you might think you are making counter arguments, but you are just actually making really cool scenarios, that would make for interesting stories and development of the world BFA could have been a very interesting expansion, where the focus could have been on the Horde trying to take full control of Kalimdor while the Alliance did the same with Eastern Kingdoms. The counter-argument to that could be interesting, where anti-isolation questions would come up constantly vs the simply solution to the war by seperating the factions on their own continent.

None of those scenarios work because Blizz have no skill to execute them without fucking up bad.

And Hyjal without Ashenvale makes as much sense as leaving that one island to blood elves while taking everything else.

Basically, Ashenvale was always described in lore as night elven heartland, losing it was equal to basically going culturally extinct or actually extinct. Thats why Horde attacks on it always faced such resistance while for example Azshara was always slow “just business” fight.

Any invader in Ashenvale would either have to kill off night elves as a race or bugger off from it, which is an extreme of course but thats how it is.

Also realistically Horde as a people has no capacity for NOT committing atrocities. They have a track record WAY too bad to trust that they could fight a war without turning it into genocide.

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The reality is that the Horde was humiliated to make the alliance look good. And I will fight until we get our due.

You will die tired then. Of old age or heart attack.

[Flurryfang]

None of those scenarios work because Blizz have no skill to execute them without fucking up bad.

And Hyjal without Ashenvale makes as much sense as leaving that one island to blood elves while taking everything else.

Basically, Ashenvale was always described in lore as night elven heartland, losing it was equal to basically going culturally extinct or actually extinct. Thats why Horde attacks on it always faced such resistance while for example Azshara was always slow “just business” fight.

Any invader in Ashenvale would either have to kill off night elves as a race or bugger off from it, which is an extreme of course but thats how it is.

Also realistically Horde as a people has no capacity for NOT committing atrocities. They have a track record WAY too bad to trust that they could fight a war without turning it into genocide.

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You will die tired then. Of old age or heart attack.

If we have to think of what Blizzard "actually" can do, then we might just give up now, because ofcourse they will never do anything like this. Story development and creating characters worthwhile, is clearly one of their lowest priorities and keep getting drowned in "Gameplay and content has to come first" arguments. So we have to ignore that idea for this conversation to even be xD

Hyjal has worked for quite a while being disconnected from Ashenvale and the rest of the NE lands. Same with moonglade. NE have shown, that their communties are alright in isolated segments.

...You do know, that the NE technically lost Ashenvale in the Cata war right? They have been without Ashenvale for 4 expansions xD So its not like we are changing much by having them chased out of Auberdine aswell.

The current story have indeed set up, that the Horde just keeps fighting and have given them a long history of doing bad things... But ain't that what we are trying to change? Change the boring "Horde is evil always" steriotype, while still keeping them different from the ideals of the Alliance. This is also why they need better leaders, leaders who we can take serious and not just put in war-crime mode or peace-lover mode. They need a leader, who can make the war with the alliance justifyable, just like Anduin have made when it comes to war from the Alliance point of view.

[Shadowferal]

The reality is that the Horde was humiliated to make the alliance look good. And I will fight until we get our due.

Hmm..or you'll pick a fight on the Dragon Isle and die thinking you do it for honor, yet you'll either be remembered as a cautionary tale, or a forgotten warmongering fool...unlike Garrosh, which we point at today; Come to think of it the Isles should be littered with such examples.

[VladlTutushkin]

If we have to think of what Blizzard "actually" can do, then we might just give up now, because ofcourse they will never do anything like this. Story development and creating characters worthwhile, is clearly one of their lowest priorities and keep getting drowned in "Gameplay and content has to come first" arguments. So we have to ignore that idea for this conversation to even be xD

Hyjal has worked for quite a while being disconnected from Ashenvale and the rest of the NE lands. Same with moonglade. NE have shown, that their communties are alright in isolated segments.

...You do know, that the NE technically lost Ashenvale in the Cata war right? They have been without Ashenvale for 4 expansions xD So its not like we are changing much by having them chased out of Auberdine aswell.

The current story have indeed set up, that the Horde just keeps fighting and have given them a long history of doing bad things... But ain't that what we are trying to change? Change the boring "Horde is evil always" steriotype, while still keeping them different from the ideals of the Alliance. This is also why they need better leaders, leaders who we can take serious and not just put in war-crime mode or peace-lover mode. They need a leader, who can make the war with the alliance justifyable, just like Anduin have made when it comes to war from the Alliance point of view.

You entirely wrong about Cata. They didnt “lost” it there, Horde just pushed deeper into it but than lost it after Pandaria when they stopped attacking due to whole SoO thing and later removed their forces from it entirely in return for night elves withdrawing from Azshara.

In fact, at the start of War of Thorns all Horde outposts in Ashenvale were supposedly abandoned for years. Also even with Garrosh at the helm orcs couldnt take over entire zone, while Varian came in with worgens and helped push them back to the middle.

Also if you want your leaders to be “more like Anduin” than you already have those aka Thrall and Baine lol.

[Shadowferal]

*sigh*...and this is why I rewrite the lore.

Teldrassil never burned. Aurberdine has a gateway that serves as a quick supply route to Astranaar, a staging point for the massive Cenarion Circle grove populated by Nightelf and Tauren to wage a battle against the Warsong Lumber camp, and even more so against goblins in Azshara.

[Raisei]

It could create an interesting character point of view and make a good leader for the Horde. Cause that is what the Horde has always been, a place for people to feel safe.

How do people feel safe when their leaders keep throwing their lifes away in one war after the next?

What if the Horde had a leader, that actually took that stand point and ran with it, making decisions, whether good or bad, around the idea, that safety is not assured in this world and the Horde has to fight to achieve it, especially after the big loses the Horde has taken through the ages.

I really do not care what excuse the next Warchief uses to justify the slaughter of another Alliance city. In fact Sylvanas' used exactly this excuse. She said that the Horde would never be "safe" as long as the Alliance exists... In truth the Horde has no reason to fight the Alliance. They would do well to establish diplomatic relations to get what they need. If they are unable to do that and can't live in peace then we are doomed to repeat this pointless cycle of wars.

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The reality is that the Horde was humiliated to make the alliance look good. And I will fight until we get our due.

I notice that 1) you ignored my answer as usual, because you know I am right, but don't want to accept it, 2) you have been banned again. Maybe you should go over to the official forums and "fight" there?

[Flurryfang]

How do people feel safe when their leaders keep throwing their lifes away in one war after the next?



I really do not care what excuse the next Warchief uses to justify the slaughter of another Alliance city. In fact Sylvanas' used exactly this excuse. The said that the Horde would never be "safe" as long as the Alliance exists... In truth the Horde has no reason to fight the Alliance. They would do well to establish diplomatic relations to get what they need. If they are unable to do that and can't live in peace then we are doomed to repeat this pointless cycle of wars.

Again, that is the problem - Blizzard have always said that what brings the horde together is the need for safety and survival, and yet all their leaders after Thrall have just brought them more death and destruction. Thats kinda bad leadership and makes the base idea of the faction completly mute.

Well maybe we can start out by not having the next Horde campaign be about the slaughter of another alliance, no? It is true that Sylvanas used that as an excuse and it actually worked for a time, until she destroyed Teldrassil...To quote Douglas Adams: This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

We would have seen a very different story if the fighting had stopped at Auberdine, if the Horde has simply pushed the Alliance off Kalimdor and focused on holding it after that. That would have been a good story and would have made the idea of Sylvanas as leader much stronger, would even have made her later betrayal that much more interesting.

So yeah, it can be done. That said, i do agree with you on the point of diplomacy. The only time things have gone well for the Horde, was during TBC and Wrath, where Thrall actually made good relations with the Alliance. They had an interesting relationship and even though they were enemies, there was unity on a number of elements aswell.

But sadly, that is not what Blizzard wants. Blizzard wants a war, a constant war, between the Horde and Alliance, and everything is too stale. So we have to make something up, that makes this war have a reason to exists or else, we end up in another BFA situation, where we have to keep doing stupid war crimes to keep fighting.

[Nymrohd]

Wolfheart happens after Cataclysm and the Alliance pushes the Horde out of Ashenvale there (and would have killed Garrosh if not for magnataur ex machina saving his ass).

[Raisei]

Again, that is the problem - Blizzard have always said that what brings the horde together is the need for safety and survival, and yet all their leaders after Thrall have just brought them more death and destruction. Thats kinda bad leadership and makes the base idea of the faction completly mute.

The problem here really is that the writer sporadically want to please the Old-Horde-Fan, who do not care about any new storyline and just want faction war until the end of days. They did that twice now and each time it ended in an unsatisfying end, because a war that neither side can factually win (since neither faction can be removed) is pointless. Especially if you know it from the start as most people did in BFA. There was a small hope that the end would give us big changes like a faction merge or similar, but nope. Nothing.
This part of the fanbase seems to be sufficiently huge that catering to them is worth the time investment, as we have seen when because of a metric shitton of complaints the loyalist questline was added, so that the Old/Evil Horde players could stick to the genocidal Banshee.
It is because of this, that I do not believe the peace we have currently isn't gonna hold and we will end up with a new faction war in 1 or 2 expansions. Making all the positives that are happening now pointless. Who cares if Thalyssra invites Alliance folks to her wedding, when in 2 expansions she turns around and helps murdering Night Elves again.

Well maybe we can start out by not having the next Horde campaign be about the slaughter of another alliance, no?

I wish that were possible, but I am not seeing it. The characters in game of course are fully commited to the peace... for now, just as they were after Legion. But as a player that is apparently wiser then a 1000 year old general, I don't believe the Horde will keep the peace. The Council already has several people that were all too happy to just keep the war going for no deeper reason then "War is fun". Rokhan and the Mag'har leader and Talanji were all in on that. The only reason the peace held was that the other councilors outvoted them. It is all too easy to change this.

It is true that Sylvanas used that as an excuse and it actually worked for a time, until she destroyed Teldrassil...To quote Douglas Adams: This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

Well, truth be told, the only people angry were Alliance folks, Baine and Saurfang. The rest of the Horde were fine with it, or at least they silently accepted it. As long as the people of the Horde just silently follow whatever the man or woman at the top says there is no security for the Alliance. If someone takes out the anti-war Councilors or convinces them of war, the Horde is gonna go on a rampage again. No matter how well it worked with the Alliance before.

We would have seen a very different story if the fighting had stopped at Auberdine, if the Horde has simply pushed the Alliance off Kalimdor and focused on holding it after that. That would have been a good story and would have made the idea of Sylvanas as leader much stronger, would even have made her later betrayal that much more interesting.

I mean, the Alliance would not have taken it lying down... or at least I hope not. So the war would have continued anyway. The problem is that Blizzard themselves retconned Sylvanas motivation for the Burning several times. First she wanted to capture it as hostages, but when Delaryn triggered her with the word "hope" she snapped to torment the already dying elf. Then it was about demoralizing the Nelfs, which she wanted to achieve by killing Malfurion and when Saurfang spared him, she used the tree instead and then it was all about the Jailer...
I guess that happens when you fire your lead writer at the start of an expansion (he had it coming ofc).

So yeah, it can be done. That said, i do agree with you on the point of diplomacy. The only time things have gone well for the Horde, was during TBC and Wrath, where Thrall actually made good relations with the Alliance. They had an interesting relationship and even though they were enemies, there was unity on a number of elements aswell.

War is never a solution for anything. Especially in a game such as this. Neither faction will ever destroy the other, so the story will always end in a draw. Diplomacy is not only the inner-worldly better alternative, but also the way to better stories in the future. Or at least I hope so. Dragonflight will show.

But sadly, that is not what Blizzard wants. Blizzard wants a war, a constant war, between the Horde and Alliance, and everything is too stale. So we have to make something up, that makes this war have a reason to exists or else, we end up in another BFA situation, where we have to keep doing stupid war crimes to keep fighting.

I really do not think that is what Blizzard wants. They always write the faction war stories in a way that one side is evil for starting it and that Warchief both times went insane and turned on their own faction. The moral "War is bad" always swings with it. I feel they are afraid of loosing a good chunk of the playerbase is they don't have some faction war every few expansions. Which might very well have something to do with the PvP aspect. Since they cannot remove PvP anymore, they need to keep it alive and they kinda have to explain why the factions are hacking of each others heads, if they are peacefully exploring the Dragon Isles the rest of the time.

[VladlTutushkin]

The problem here really is that the writer sporadically want to please the Old-Horde-Fan, who do not care about any new storyline and just want faction war until the end of days. They did that twice now and each time it ended in an unsatisfying end, because a war that neither side can factually win (since neither faction can be removed) is pointless. Especially if you know it from the start as most people did in BFA. There was a small hope that the end would give us big changes like a faction merge or similar, but nope. Nothing.
This part of the fanbase seems to be sufficiently huge that catering to them is worth the time investment, as we have seen when because of a metric shitton of complaints the loyalist questline was added, so that the Old/Evil Horde players could stick to the genocidal Banshee.
It is because of this, that I do not believe the peace we have currently isn't gonna hold and we will end up with a new faction war in 1 or 2 expansions. Making all the positives that are happening now pointless. Who cares if Thalyssra invites Alliance folks to her wedding, when in 2 expansions she turns around and helps murdering Night Elves again.

I wish that were possible, but I am not seeing it. The characters in game of course are fully commited to the peace... for now, just as they were after Legion. But as a player that is apparently wiser then a 1000 year old general, I don't believe the Horde will keep the peace. The Council already has several people that were all too happy to just keep the war going for no deeper reason then "War is fun". Rokhan and the Mag'har leader and Talanji were all in on that. The only reason the peace held was that the other councilors outvoted them. It is all too easy to change this.

It is true that Sylvanas used that as an excuse and it actually worked for a time, until she destroyed Teldrassil...To quote Douglas Adams: This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

Well, truth be told, the only people angry were Alliance folks, Baine and Saurfang. The rest of the Horde were fine with it, or at least they silently accepted it. As long as the people of the Horde just silently follow whatever the man or woman at the top says there is no security for the Alliance. If someone takes out the anti-war Councilors or convinces them of war, the Horde is gonna go on a rampage again. No matter how well it worked with the Alliance before.



I mean, the Alliance would not have taken it lying down... or at least I hope not. So the war would have continued anyway. The problem is that Blizzard themselves retconned Sylvanas motivation for the Burning several times. First she wanted to capture it as hostages, but when Delaryn triggered her with the word "hope" she snapped to torment the already dying elf. Then it was about demoralizing the Nelfs, which she wanted to achieve by killing Malfurion and when Saurfang spared him, she used the tree instead and then it was all about the Jailer...
I guess that happens when you fire your lead writer at the start of an expansion (he had it coming ofc).



War is never a solution for anything. Especially in a game such as this. Neither faction will ever destroy the other, so the story will always end in a draw. Diplomacy is not only the inner-worldly better alternative, but also the way to better stories in the future. Or at least I hope so. Dragonflight will show.



I really do not think that is what Blizzard wants. They always write the faction war stories in a way that one side is evil for starting it and that Warchief both times went insane and turned on their own faction. The moral "War is bad" always swings with it. I feel they are afraid of loosing a good chunk of the playerbase is they don't have some faction war every few expansions. Which might very well have something to do with the PvP aspect. Since they cannot remove PvP anymore, they need to keep it alive and they kinda have to explain why the factions are hacking of each others heads, if they are peacefully exploring the Dragon Isles the rest of the time.

PvP is easiest to explain without war.
Hell, most BGs already “lore obsolete” by now.
So lore explanation for PvP is not that important.
But it can be anything, like neutral factions who are at odds with each other over some zone or resource.
Or maybe its sole sort of military exercise.
Or even “time travel” where we take part in battles in ages past and etc.

[mickybrighteyes]

Again, that is the problem - Blizzard have always said that what brings the horde together is the need for safety and survival, and yet all their leaders after Thrall have just brought them more death and destruction. Thats kinda bad leadership and makes the base idea of the faction completly mute.

A problem comes in when they legit give the alliance storylines that prove the horde survival arcs and then somehow mass amnesia happens and the warmonger that started such messes are mysteriously sidelined for unstated reasons (rogers) or they go all in on some arc developing them in a different way (Genn and Varian). Hell they also break their somewhat interesting characters to hamstring any less than morally good theme to make another character's moral standing the center piece (basically BFA and Anduin's pressence... or well how they did Tyrande in SL).

A big issue I actually have with the post thrall storyline is how much people seem to forget Garrosh didn't start the war many blame him for and cite as evidence of his warmongering... Varian was a hotheaded warmonger in his own right and basically set up his promotion to "blue war chief" and turned into the biggest plot device to undermine LITERALLY EVERY OTHER Alliance leader's story arcs... as much as I appreciated his later storylines he turned genn into a wolf weeb and anduin simp. Turned Tyrande incompetent... and the whole faction turned an extension of Varian's attempt to play the biggest dickus contest with Garrosh WHO WASN'T EVEN IN CHARGE YET.

But yeah, going into Warchief Roulette basically killed nearly all the good ideas in the horde. Thrall, stepped down.. Garrosh, defeated multiple times and killed. Voljin... dead... Cairne also dead... Sylvanas... ruined... Lorthemar sideswiped while Baine takes lead as "council" figurehead. Next up is Baine, if End Times is basic tier foreshadowing.

[VladlTutushkin]

A problem comes in when they legit give the alliance storylines that prove the horde survival arcs and then somehow mass amnesia happens and the warmonger that started such messes are mysteriously sidelined for unstated reasons (rogers) or they go all in on some arc developing them in a different way (Genn and Varian). Hell they also break their somewhat interesting characters to hamstring any less than morally good theme to make another character's moral standing the center piece (basically BFA and Anduin's pressence... or well how they did Tyrande in SL).

A big issue I actually have with the post thrall storyline is how much people seem to forget Garrosh didn't start the war many blame him for and cite as evidence of his warmongering... Varian was a hotheaded warmonger in his own right and basically set up his promotion to "blue war chief" and turned into the biggest plot device to undermine LITERALLY EVERY OTHER Alliance leader's story arcs... as much as I appreciated his later storylines he turned genn into a wolf weeb and anduin simp. Turned Tyrande incompetent... and the whole faction turned an extension of Varian's attempt to play the biggest dickus contest with Garrosh WHO WASN'T EVEN IN CHARGE YET.

But yeah, going into Warchief Roulette basically killed nearly all the good ideas in the horde. Thrall, stepped down.. Garrosh, defeated multiple times and killed. Voljin... dead... Cairne also dead... Sylvanas... ruined... Lorthemar sideswiped while Baine takes lead as "council" figurehead. Next up is Baine, if End Times is basic tier foreshadowing.

You saying that like Horde had any good ideas in it outside of cool visuals to begin with.

Also it is a massive retcon on Blizz part but they snuck in a peace conference in before Cata so technically Varian’s war declaration was cut short and than Garrosh decided to pick it up and declared war on Alliance.

Also lorewise his spiel of “I will conquer whole Kalimdor” was what spurred Jaina to aid Alliance since “whole Kalimdor” included Theramore too.

[Cynical Asshole]

The Horde went full communist. They're done with warchiefs, now they have a council of soyboys. A "Trust and Safety Council" if you will.
I hope there will be a guy called E'Lon Tusk down the line to make the Horde cool again.

[Mehrunes]

Also it is a massive retcon on Blizz part but they snuck in a peace conference in before Cata so technically Varian’s war declaration was cut short and than Garrosh decided to pick it up and declared war on Alliance.

Congrats, you managed to be wrong twice in one sentence that's not even two lines long. First, while the factions tried to make peace after WotLK, it went pretty much nowhere because Varian was a hotheaded moron that fell for the Twilight Hammer's manipulation line, hook and sinker. The factions only managed to get a truce. Secondly, even that truce was broken by the Alliance and not the Horde, because the Northwatch attack on the Barrens predates Garrosh's invasion of Ashenvale.