Darnassus is gone and it still has no "replacement"

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I kinda figured you would, since you're also cool with concentration camps being just "housing".

That's how slavery was justified IRL, too, by the way - "we make their choices for them, they'll be better off with what we choose for them".

You keep going that way, I'mma just head the other direction. Your world is not a place I want to touch, no offense.

When black people come raging through a portal trying to wipe the world clean while hopped up on demon blood and wipe out multiple states only to then lose and go into heavy withdrawal Ill happily say they should be put in camps to.

Until then miss me with your proverbial bullshit that black people are like orcs.

[arboachg]

Still sad to see how much they butchered that zone..

Cataclysm was a mistake.

[Biomega]

Until then miss me with your proverbial bullshit that black people are like orcs.

Only you could go from "maybe let people choose and not make choices for them?" to "so you're saying black people are orcs?!" XD

At this point I gotta ask, is that all just a massive troll I've fallen for hook, line, and sinker? You can't REALLY have that little parsing ability, right? As presumably an adult or close enough, with presumably some form of education?

[Feanoro]

Until then miss me with your proverbial bullshit that black people are like orcs.

Some people definitely love to whip out the race card any time they're losing an argument, and usually out themselves as racists in doing so. It's just sad and ridiculous that proved the case again in trying to argue against the merciful option in a fictional setting.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Only you could go from "maybe let people choose and not make choices for them?" to "so you're saying black people are orcs?!" XD

At this point I gotta ask, is that all just a massive troll I've fallen for hook, line, and sinker? You can't REALLY have that little parsing ability, right? As presumably an adult or close enough, with presumably some form of education?

The idea that black people doing nothing to any one and being enslaved due to the white mans burden and the orcs who committed genocide and now have to be dealt with in a way that doesn't leave them or the alliance dead after the fact is are alike farcical.

You can say your not trying to say orc's and black people are the same but that's what your doing when you try and say the two situations are the same or even similar.

[Biomega]

The idea that black people doing nothing to any one and being enslaved due to the white mans burden and the orcs who committed genocide and now have to be dealt with in a way that doesn't leave them or the alliance dead after the fact is farcical.

All of which has very little to do with what I actually said, hence my question about your reading ability.

Which answered itself, I guess.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

All of which has very little to do with what I actually said, hence my question about your reading ability.

Which answered itself, I guess.

You tried to invoke the white mans burden To justify how the treatment of the orcs is wrong ignoring that the situation is nothing like what blacks went through because they didn't start the conflict and weren't a threat to them self's or there slavers before or after they were put into chains.

Don't make comparisons your uncomfortable with if you don't want them pointed out.

[Biomega]

You tried to invoke the white mans burden To justify how the treatment of the orcs is wrong ignoring that the situation is nothing like what blacks went through because they didn't start the conflict and weren't a threat to them self's or there slavers before or after they were put into chains.

Don't make comparisons your uncomfortable with if you don't want them pointed out.

That's not what I said, though. Read it again, maybe? Read what I SAID, not what you think might be connected to it somewhere somehow if you go off on three tangents. Only what I ACTUALLY said, which was about making choices for other people, not about slavery, not about conflict, not about any of the things you said. Only that making choices for other people instead of letting them choose for themselves is not a good idea, even if you mean well; and that this has been historically used to justify all sorts of repugnant things, like slavery. That doesn't mean orcs=black people, that doesn't mean orc invasion=slavery, that doesn't mean Alliance=white people, or any of the other hare-brained analogies you try to draw because you are obviously incapable of extracting from a statement the actual, pertinent elements of an argument.

EDIT: oh, and, let me just add that this pseudo-interpretative tomfoolery is QUITE rich coming from someone who goes "concentration camps=housing, same thing, I don't play word games".

[Lorgar Aurelian]

That's not what I said, though. Read it again, maybe? Read what I SAID, not what you think might be connected to it somewhere somehow if you go off on three tangents. Only what I ACTUALLY said, which was about making choices for other people, not about slavery, not about conflict, not about any of the things you said. Only that making choices for other people instead of letting them choose for themselves is not a good idea, even if you mean well; and that this has been historically used to justify all sorts of repugnant things, like slavery. That doesn't mean orcs=black people, that doesn't mean orc invasion=slavery, that doesn't mean Alliance=white people, or any of the other hare-brained analogies you try to draw because you are obviously incapable of extracting from a statement the actual, pertinent elements of an argument.

EDIT: oh, and, let me just add that this pseudo-interpretative tomfoolery is QUITE rich coming from someone who goes "concentration camps=housing, same thing, I don't play word games".

I’ve read it, you failed at to make any arguments beyond “we should kill the orcs but I don’t want the guilt” and then tried to drop a smug “but slavery was bad right!” Not thinking of the implications of comparing real black people to fantasy monsters.

And no I’m still not interested in your word games unlike you I wont ignore the words for multiple post and then start pearl clutching about terminology there from the start, I’ll just call you out on your bull shit from the get go.

[Aucald]

This thread has quickly shifted toward forbidden topics and needs to get back on topic, which concerns Darnassus and the parity of faction cities and capitals.

[Nymrohd]

So parity between capitals

Horde
Orgrimmar
Lore: capital with large population, center of military power of the Horde
In Game: Has been besieged but it did not restrict access or anything. The city has received several coats of paint. Imo there are some problems though (the lack of a harbor and the fact that Bilgewater is rarely used for in game quests)

Thunder Bluff
Lore: capital with large population
In Game: there is a decent amount of things they could do with Thunder Bluff to expand it but ultimately it is a decent representation of what it is supposed to be. Most important events in Thunder Bluff happened or were just mentioned in novels which is a shame (Grimtotem occupation, Legion Invasion)

Silvermoon
Lore: capital with large population, major center of arcane power (IQD should be included?)
In Game: Silvermoon has vast potential; not flight enabled, on a separate map, half the city still in ruins, no harbor even though in lore it has a significant harbor.

Undercity
Lore: the Undercity itself is still plagued and inaccessible. The Horde has reclaimed Lordaeron Keep and the aboveground area
In Game: Unlike with Teldrassil, Blizzard could just decide to give it back (I mean it's still there). Ofc it could be interesting to give the Forsaken something completely new

Echo Isles
Lore: they are there, the Darkspear have full control
In Game: there isn't much there? They really could have tried a bit more. Problem was that they did not really touch troll doodads/WMOs during Cata; they made many for MoP and BfA. Beyond the port addition (which isn't even a real port) there is a lot of potential there

Bilgewater Harbor
Lore: pretty snazzy town with a massive cannon, full Horde control
In Game: it's not the actual Bilgewater capital (they don't have one). Which makes no sense cause the Harbor is there and it is a perfect goblin city (small for a racial capital but bigger than a town).

Suramar
Lore: fully under Horde control, large population, major center of arcane power
In Game: only Nighthold has a phased version that is in Horde control. Not much that can be done to fully give it to Horde given how many quests are there (you could phase the entire city I guess)

Thunder Totem
Lore: fully under Horde control, significant population center
In Game: Horde has full access since the place was friendly to begin with (including all the other Highmountain settlements). Pretty large place though more of a large town than capital sized

Zul'dazar
Lore: fully under Horde control, significant population center, major center of divine/wild power
In Game: Horde has full access. Not much would be needed, the place is massive and very detailed (yeah there are lore issues with the entirety of Zandalar but that's done for now )

Alliance
Stormwind
Lore: capital of the Alliance, center of military power, probably highest population in Azeroth
In Game: it's fine? While it lagged behind Orgrimmar significantly in updates, current Stormwind is a fleshed out city with multiple areas of interest, a proper harbor (and dry docks even). With all the refugees etc they could do more with it but it's not that needed

Ironforge
Lore: major population center, major military power
In Game: Has had a minor update since launch. Has a lot of potential (just check the Alpha version), even if just adding tunnels to link it to the Airport or exit towards Wetlands and the valleys that are probably its main farmland. Not expecting it to happen.

Darnassus
GONE

Gnomeregan
Lore: never actually reclaimed; just evacuation areas established
In Game: some buildings made available but not even enough to call it a town, at best a questing outpost.

Exodar
Lore: fully repaired, functional at least before the Legion invasion (cannot fly after with the death of O'ros though)
In Game: It was a mess, it remains a mess. Considering the massive number of Draenei assets available post WoD, they could easily make something amazing for the Draenei if they wanted. At least the accessible part of Silvermoon isn't filled with debris

Gilneas City
Lore: not under alliance control. No large town under Alliance worgen control in game similar to Bilgewater. They got a tree in Darnassus but that's gone
In Game: as with lore, nothing

Mechagon
Lore: under alliance control. Not sure about population but major center of tech power
In Game: small area is available phased for mechagnomes. Much larger area is available but unsure if they'd do anything about it. At least they made use of the Robodrome.

Boralus
Lore: under alliance control. Major population center
In Game: imo best city in game when it comes to realism. Multiple neighborhoods each with their own character. What it is missing is a keep (if Proudmore Keep had an interior I'd consider the city perfect)

Shadowforge City
Lore: under alliance control. Major population center
In Game: only a small area is available. Since it was a dungeon it's a bit weird as a city (the flow of the subzones really makes so little sense)

I don't know if I should mention things like the Vindicaar (a single ship with admittedly significant military application but it wasn't used when it mattered so?) or Telorgus (rocks floating in space). I guess they are more than the Mag'har and Vulpera get? Still don't even count as towns

I'd say the Horde has an advantage in game. Echo Isles are still more than the gnomes get. Bilgewater Harbor is far more than the Worgen get. Boralus may be equivalent to Zul'dazar and I guess Mechagon and/or Shadowforge to Suramar (since in all three cases the faction only gets a small phased area of the larger city). But the Horde also gets Thunder Totem. Alliance could get Gilneas City (which if you revisit is not actually THAT large) and both factions should get something for Night Elfs and Forsaken respectively.

Lore wise I'd say that after the Allied Races additions, the factions are very much equals. Earlier the Alliance had the advantage but at this point claiming the Horde is an underdog when they have significant holdings across four continents including two of the most ancient civilizations of Azeroth would be ridiculous.

[Flurryfang]

Just own the evil...

]

This makes me really annoyed, because it is so true. The Horde have done horrible things and while it has mostly been done under Garrosh or the undead, its still hard to get away from.

It is such a shame, that Blizzard have consistently chosen the Horde to be direct bad guys again and again, instead of making them interesting adversaries to the Alliance in a war for dominance and survival.

[Nymrohd]

This makes me really annoyed, because it is so true. The Horde have done horrible things and while it has mostly been done under Garrosh or the undead, its still hard to get away from.

It is such a shame, that Blizzard have consistently chosen the Horde to be direct bad guys again and again, instead of making them interesting adversaries to the Alliance in a war for dominance and survival.

And some of those cases were just so ridiculous. Like, what was the point of Brennadam? You can make one side the aggressor without making them downright evil.

[Accendor]

And some of those cases were just so ridiculous. Like, what was the point of Brennadam? You can make one side the aggressor without making them downright evil.

This is the time of the year again where I would like to remind people that the force impaled civilians on spears and made their children watch them bleed out. That's something happens in
Brennendam.

[Dancaris]

And some of those cases were just so ridiculous. Like, what was the point of Brennadam? You can make one side the aggressor without making them downright evil.

Back in testing - there was not Horde but Quillboar doings. But genius lore team decided that we must ensure Kul-Tiras know who their enemy. So they just bitchslapped some Horde maniacs in town and call it a day.
Same with Theramore and Teldrassil. BOMB IT TO ATOMS BC I FKING HATE HUMANS and BURN IT BC SOME NIGHT ELF WAS TROLLING TO ME!!. Same with Ursoc. He must be in place of Eliot (that bear in Ardenweald), but there was not enough drama so they just kill him and replace with female version.

[Flurryfang]

And some of those cases were just so ridiculous. Like, what was the point of Brennadam? You can make one side the aggressor without making them downright evil.

Well you know, it was on a day where the Horde had not meet their killing quota that month, so they thought "We better reach that KPI in one swoop, so let the killing begin xD

On a more serious note, i think things like Brennadam comes from the simple fact, that there is a great disconnect between the story designers and the world/level designers, with many different opinons of what the Horde actually is and so we end up with a mess like Brennadam. On one side, the Horde are good guys and on the other side they are killing machines reveling in the murder.... Its just odd.

[Nymrohd]

Anyway, do people actually disagree with the list above? Since Aucald is right, that's the actual topic.

[sam86]

ah i forgot that, thanks

what quest? the quest clearly stated that plague still in Undercity, it was cleaned from the surface lvl, which is ruins since wc3 days?

Nor was it expended to remove the Refugees from Stormwind. They have been living on the street for 5 years

The problem of updating is how inefficient it is, most ppl don't know for example that horde have no foot in Ashenvale since MoP days, sometimes even blizz themselves forget it seems
Pre-BFA event (didn't play in that time) didn't show that part no idea why, in fact is it even clear who controls Ashenvale now in lore?

[Mehrunes]

I like how in yet another thread a certain type of posters are once again pretending that simply making the surviving Orcs fuck off back to their place (you know, what was done in the a metric ton of wars across history) was somehow not an option. Even though, when Alliance then closed the Dark Portal anyway, they were under the impression they were doing that permanently.

Anyway, do people actually disagree with the list above? Since Aucald is right, that's the actual topic.

I'd add that Stormwind is in a much better shape than Orgrimmar. Part of it is obviously in-story idiocy of Thrall who deliberately settled in a shithole to atone for his green guilt, but after Garrosh rebuild it he made changes to make it a more functional city. Yet, like you said, it doesn't even have proper docks other than one wharf.

Meanwhile Stormwind magicked away an entire mountain range and got a giant harbor just so they could have a connection to Northrend. In the same expansion where Horde's way to connect to the place was "let's copy-paste the zeppelin towers, lel" (somehow the type of posters that convinced themselves Blizzard sent assassins after them for the grave sin of playing Alliance are silent about such things). Even though it was, among other things, the expansion that established the Forsaken having one of the strongest navies around the world. With them also not having any port to this day.

And Stormwind kept getting upgrades since then to fix issues like Deathwing damage, while multiple sectors of the new Orgrimmar still have the same buildings under construction that it did in 4.0.

[Nymrohd]

I like how in yet another thread a certain type of posters are once again pretending that simply making the surviving Orcs fuck off back to their place (you know, what was done in the a metric ton of wars across history) was somehow not an option. Even though, when Alliance then closed the Dark Portal anyway, they were under the impression they were doing that permanently.




I'd add that Stormwind is in a much better shape than Orgrimmar. Part of it is obviously in-story idiocy of Thrall who deliberately settled in a shithole to atone for his green guilt, but after Garrosh rebuild it he made changes to make it a more functional city. Yet, like you said, it doesn't even have proper docks other than one wharf.

Meanwhile Stormwind magicked away an entire mountain range and got a giant harbor just so they could have a connection to Northrend. In the same expansion where Horde's way to connect to the place was "let's copy-paste the zeppelin towers, lel" (somehow the type of posters that convinced themselves Blizzard sent assassins after them for the grave sin of playing Alliance are silent about such things). Even though it was, among other things, the expansion that established the Forsaken having one of the strongest navies around the world. With them also not having any port to this day.

And Stormwind kept getting upgrades since then to fix issues like Deathwing damage, while multiple sectors of the new Orgrimmar still have the same buildings under construction that it did in 4.0.

Honestly if I could, I'd have broken the cliffside, adding a port gate (that would effectively always be open) and leading to the Valley of Honor where I would have a port large enough for the different ships to be able to turn around and move out
I do like the zeppelin towers tbh but yeah, it was lazy as hell. Stormwind does need a skydock somewhere tbh

And yeah I always had the question of where the fuck the Forsaken navy docks.