Anyone else completely overwhelmed by new talents?

[Healerme]

And clearly as a mage you used your interrupt on every single boss for CE. Mage is lucky in not having to spec into counterspell, which is a nice bonus, but claiming having the interrupt as a talent isn't a choice is pure delusion.

"I'm so glad I have my interrupt for Skolex, it adds so much to my contribution" - delusional.

There will definitely be cases where people mistakenly miss an interrupt for certain content, but it's all repeatable, so you change spec and go again. It allows people to learn and adapt to the content.

Most defensives are not competing with DPS throughput, with few exceptions (netherwalk/cauterize) it's usually defensives vs utlity which is a good tradeoff imo.

[erifwodahs]

20s are not mid level keys... most people dont even do 15s, mid level keys are somewhere between 10-15...

Fair enough. Top 10% in EU was around 2.4k rating which is around 20+ mark. So yeah, maybe not mid keys as such, but significantly easier than doing a +20 in S1 (I think doing a +20in S1 put you in top 1% ish) - you get the point anyway and it also just proves that you can easy do top 10% content and just mess around with talents as long as you play well and know mechanics and again, I fully agree that you should try to do the best as you can with the choices and that group has certain expectations of players joining, but idea that you can't do content which is trivial or fairly easy for you personal skill level unless you pick talents which Naowh or Gingi uses - that just looks like someone trying to compensate for incompetence by shifting the blame.

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You're missing my point entirely - this is clearly a problem that didn't exist before - why is it a good thing to allow players to skip fundamental parts of their class? It really isn't a choice; having interrupts and utilities in a talent tree is not a choice like choosing X aoe ability over Y ST ability is.

As a mostly mage main who has got KSM and Curve every tier for as long as I remember without ever taking RoP - I understand not needing to be meta to do well; however sacrificing a few % of DPS is not the same as sacrificing an interrupt or defensive etc

Ok, so has it occurred to you that players who won't take interrupt or defensive or movement from their talent tree would be same people who don't use them in the first place anyway?
Have you not played with a hunter/rogue/druid who probably don't even know what soothe is? A paladin/monk who can't use freedom/cleanse even when their life literally hangs on it? Hunters who never MD? Rogues who don't faint? I have beaten many melee players on interrupts with my mage. People who wouldn't take it - they won't use it in the first place.

[FelPlague]

Simply false.

You HAVE to take an interrupt
You HAVE to take your movement ability
You HAVE to take your CC/ group stun etc

If you don't you're simply not worth bringing to any content - and that fact Blizzard has enabled people to do this under the guise of more choice is just silly

The fact your spec has like 2-3 abilities baseline (inlcuding passives) clearly is not a good thing

Lol no you dont, I play with a DH and shammy, they interrupt everything on their own no problem, so i dont need to, nevermind the fact i get one elsewhere anyways.

[m4xc4v413r4]

Yep, rational people don't refuse to use a wheel-barrow because "I didn't invent and built it myself".
Rational people use knowledge and solutions made by people far better than themselves.

This is why we live in houses and have internet and don't shit in the woods.

Speak for your self, I shit in the woods all the time

[Forteofgray]

You don't see how for some people it can be overwhelming to have to read through 50+ nodes, understand them and then apply them to their playstyle?

Unless you are already well versed in a class/spec, and already know which abilities take priority and which are dead then it's a huge amount of information that you have to sift through.

not really. I've tried out I think 5 classes since the change and none of it was confusing. you just pick what sounds good. I picked what sounded fun and it turned out fine. really wasn't a lot of info to look through. I think you're just trying to say whatever you can to make the case that the talent system sucks, but maybe you're just one of those people who don't have anything better to do than to make posts on gaming forums whining about things about the games you don't like.

[Baraden]

Lol no you dont, I play with a DH and shammy, they interrupt everything on their own no problem, so i dont need to, nevermind the fact i get one elsewhere anyways.

Felplague is a bad player imagine my absolute shock

[shanthi]

From an outsider's perspective, this looks like gaslighting, lmao.

Blizzard took a core skill and turned it into a talent, meaning every time you want it you have to spec into it, adding extra hassle just to have the talent. But somehow they've convinced gamers like this person that it adds depth to the game?

Hello -- just because you have Multishot on your bars doesn't mean you HAVE to use it in every single encounter. Taking normal baseline skills out of the core set of skills and locking it behind a skill point doesn't add depth to the game; it just adds hassle.

I think you're confused. The point is you can REPLACE Multishot with something more useful. What's the point of having an ability you're not going to use? Getting to REPLACE that useless ability WITH SOMETHING ELSE does allow you to customize your build for what you're doing.

Sorry for so many all-caps, but you seemed to be struggling with basic concepts so I tried to guide you to what the key concepts were here.

[Baraden]

Fair enough. Top 10% in EU was around 2.4k rating which is around 20+ mark. So yeah, maybe not mid keys as such, but significantly easier than doing a +20 in S1 (I think doing a +20in S1 put you in top 1% ish) - you get the point anyway and it also just proves that you can easy do top 10% content and just mess around with talents as long as you play well and know mechanics and again, I fully agree that you should try to do the best as you can with the choices and that group has certain expectations of players joining, but idea that you can't do content which is trivial or fairly easy for you personal skill level unless you pick talents which Naowh or Gingi uses - that just looks like someone trying to compensate for incompetence by shifting the blame.

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Ok, so has it occurred to you that players who won't take interrupt or defensive or movement from their talent tree would be same people who don't use them in the first place anyway?
Have you not played with a hunter/rogue/druid who probably don't even know what soothe is? A paladin/monk who can't use freedom/cleanse even when their life literally hangs on it? Hunters who never MD? Rogues who don't faint? I have beaten many melee players on interrupts with my mage. People who wouldn't take it - they won't use it in the first place.

The difference is before it was a case of bad players being bad; now these talent changes will enable these people to have an excuse

"I don't need to take an interrupt because X player is doing it"
"I wanted X talent so I skipped my CC"

Before this argument couldn't work and these players would be promptly replaced - now people can actually get away with being a pox on the game and that is not a good thing

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I think you're confused. The point is you can REPLACE Multishot with something more useful. What's the point of having an ability you're not going to use? Getting to REPLACE that useless ability WITH SOMETHING ELSE does allow you to customize your build for what you're doing.

Sorry for so many all-caps, but you seemed to be struggling with basic concepts so I tried to guide you to what the key concepts were here.

A good player was using almost every ability in their class; with the exception of niche shit like eyes of the beast etc

Now every ability in your class without talents is like 3 abilities including mastery passives

It's hilarious how condescending your post is while also being monumentally wrong

[shanthi]

Simply false.

You HAVE to take an interrupt

Why do you have to take an interrupt on a raid encounter with no interrupts?

You HAVE to take your movement ability

Why do you have to take a movement ability on a Patchwerk raid encounter with very little or no movement required?

You HAVE to take your CC/ group stun etc

Why do you have to take CC/group stuns for a raid encounter with no CC'able adds?

If you don't you're simply not worth bringing to any content - and that fact Blizzard has enabled people to do this under the guise of more choice is just silly

Sounds like you're only aware of mythic+ and don't realize that there are other activities in the game. If you ever try raiding, you'll find that different encounters require different things.

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A good player was using almost every ability in their class; with the exception of niche shit like eyes of the beast etc

Now every ability in your class without talents is like 3 abilities including mastery passives

It's hilarious how condescending your post is while also being monumentally wrong

A "good player" was using Multishot on single-target raid encounter?

Man, I sure hope "good players" like you stay out of PUGs.

[Baraden]

Why do you have to take an interrupt on a raid encounter with no interrupts?



Why do you have to take a movement ability on a Patchwerk raid encounter with very little or no movement required?



Why do you have to take CC/group stuns for a raid encounter with no CC'able adds?



Sounds like you're only aware of mythic+ and don't realize that there are other activities in the game. If you ever try raiding, you'll find that different encounters require different things.

Quite simple really - because Blizzard doesn't make such encounters anymore

Naturally, if the encounter doesn't call for an interrupt then yes, you don't need it - but I can't think of any encounter in recent memory that called for that; that aside - if the opportunity for an interrupt is there and you aren't willing to have an interrupt ready and want to let someone else do it - you are objectively a selfish and poor player I would instantly kick from my group

This is exactly the problem with the new talent system - it's enabling selfishness - utility abilities should be non-negotiable for you to have access to and be willing to use, regardless of content

Besides, you're being facetious - clearly we are not talking about one encounter - we are talking about PVE as a whole. Personally my focus is high M+ so that's what I was talking about myself, in which yes - you will always need as much utility as you can get

[Chucknourishlol]

I'll preface by saying I'm not really into creating builds and messing about with stats and all that stuff but I'm very grateful to people that are.

The talents in Dragonflight just completely overwhelm me. I don't even know where to begin (and I'm aware there's a starter build ready for me) There are SO many choices. How does one even keep track of what they need to do?

In my mind it's like, 'Okay, so I now need to spend a talent on Rampage, an ability a previously core ability, but to do that I need to spend this much, but if I do, will I be able to get this spell later on down the line? I'd like this talent, but does it fit well with this one? Oh, I've spent too much somewhere, need to backtrack and redo all these talents. Wait, where was I?'

Is there a way to go about thinking about the choices in a better way?

You sound so stressed out about learning stuff about your class. Find a training dummy, pick some talents and play around with them. Leave combat, pick other talents and try them out.

TBH this is a prime example of why WoW started making those changes to prune classes, simplify talent trees. The devs had to make a game for players who were unwilling to spend any time learning something.

If you cant handle something new then stick to classic. Watch out for the first boss in Ulduar, you might have to read some abilities of the vehicles

[shanthi]

Quite simple really - because Blizzard doesn't make such encounters anymore

Naturally, if the encounter doesn't call for an interrupt then yes, you don't need it - but I can't think of any encounter in recent memory that called for that

I can't tell if you're just trolling or simply don't know anything about raiding and don't want to admit it--just in the last raid alone (that's Sepulcher of the First Ones if you're unaware, prior to Fated versions), Skolex, Lihuvim, Halondrus, Rygelon and the Jailer didn't require interrupts.

Besides, you're being facetious - clearly we are not talking about one encounter - we are talking about PVE as a whole.

Why on Earth would we be talking about "PVE as a whole" when the whole point of this system is customizing your build for what you're doing? You really, really don't understand this system if you think that you create a single build for "PVE as a whole."

Any serious raider is going to adjust their build for the encounter they're currently focusing on.

[doodle90]

Quite simple really - because Blizzard doesn't make such encounters anymore

Naturally, if the encounter doesn't call for an interrupt then yes, you don't need it - but I can't think of any encounter in recent memory that called for that; that aside - if the opportunity for an interrupt is there and you aren't willing to have an interrupt ready and want to let someone else do it - you are objectively a selfish and poor player I would instantly kick from my group

This is exactly the problem with the new talent system - it's enabling selfishness - utility abilities should be non-negotiable for you to have access to and be willing to use, regardless of content

Besides, you're being facetious - clearly we are not talking about one encounter - we are talking about PVE as a whole. Personally my focus is high M+ so that's what I was talking about myself, in which yes - you will always need as much utility as you can get

Many classes interrupts have to be taken to go further down in the tree....some do not.... not hard. Also not a problem with a talent system because just because someone HAS an intterupt doesnt mean they use it which can easily be seen in the years before interrupts was a choice. People rarely use them when they got them so HOW is this a talent problema nd not just a wow player problem lol. FF14 had a good solution. Tie DPS reductions to things that need to be dodged and intterupted and suddenly DPS care.

[Lolites]

Sounds like you're only aware of mythic+ and don't realize that there are other activities in the game. If you ever try raiding, you'll find that different encounters require different things.

even there its not true, for example frost DK in SL talents have option to take movement ability and a lot of people (even some on top of spec ranking) didnt, despite DK being slow...

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Why on Earth would we be talking about "PVE as a whole" when the whole point of this system is customizing your build for what you're doing?

yeah he seems to miss the point of the system completely

[Silvador]

Try removing all talents. Imo, they should create an option to choose wether you want to have it prechosen or blank. I was overwhelmed too with the talents and being to much. But after a little study and removing the talents i found it interesting. Maybe Even Nice choices. You can choose yourself how to create your character.

[Koollan]

Idk I'm not a game designer, I just know how I feel and I feel better with WOTLK style talents over DF style talents

At least you're honest. Props to that.

[TENTACLELUVR]

This is exactly the problem with the new talent system - it's enabling selfishness - utility abilities should be non-negotiable for you to have access to and be willing to use, regardless of content

Yep, when the choice is between DPS and utility, the natural thing to do is spec out of utility and maximize personal/raid DPS. I can't think of a time in WoW's history players have been forced to choose between the two this much. Many of the talents are former baseline abilities or borrowed power abilities. A lot of stuff that was taken away to be given back. Speccing into basic parts of your kit doesn't feel like a bonus, it feels like filling holes that have been designed in your kit to limit the amount of DPS talents you can take.

Arcane Mage can't access Slow, a former baseline ability, because of other necessary DPS talents. Dragon's Breath for example is a confused spell - it's a DPS increase to use on AoE packs, but also a CC ability that breaks on damage. Is Dragon's Breath competing with other DPS talents or other utility talents like Ring of Frost? The answer is both, which makes comparing things in your head harder than it has ever been. You have to spec into Ice Block to reach Spellsteal. Don't need Ice Block this fight? Too bad because you are the only dispel in your group - everyone else's optimal DPS pathway requires 3 points of investment to reach instead of your 1. It's a dizzying amount of optimization for raid leaders to do.

The issue is the crazy amounts of branching pathways that make no logical sense. And even if they did make sense, no one would max out the would-be utility pathway. Yes the trees are divided into 3 lanes, but those lanes have no theme. For Mage the left side goes from Ice Block, to Ring of Frost, to Shifting Power. The middle goes from Rune of Power, to Mass Poly, to Temporal Warp. Right side from Invisible, to Alter Time, to Meteor or Displacement. Players have to carve the optimal path through all the DPS nodes, avoiding the utility nodes unless absolutely necessary to reach a DPS node.

The old talent grid gave (some) agency on how to use parts of the spec's kit. Dragonflight talents feel like choosing between sets of weaknesses in the class - or pick all the weaknesses for max DPS. Even older talent trees felt more like sets of bonuses stacking on top of each other to build up strengths on top of the baseline kit.

[fazaim]

Absolutely love them. I've never spent as much time hitting dummies, and having fun while at it. If they're too much for you, copy from icy-veins. If it bothers you that you had to copy paste then go learn them. The information they contain is not more than 2 pages of a book. The trees have so much potential. We CAN play whatever we want now, and choice is so important and liberating. And most importantly, the classes feel finished right now. Not since MoP have the classes felt finished without either the correct legendaries, set bonuses or other systems. Please, like, these complaints shouldn't exist. Don't make a wave that will make them reconsider, jesus.

[Celement]

Not really. Have my single target talents saved and my cleave talents saved.

[fazaim]

Yep, when the choice is between DPS and utility, the natural thing to do is spec out of utility and maximize personal/raid DPS. I can't think of a time in WoW's history players have been forced to choose between the two this much. Many of the talents are former baseline abilities or borrowed power abilities. A lot of stuff that was taken away to be given back. Speccing into basic parts of your kit doesn't feel like a bonus, it feels like filling holes that have been designed in your kit to limit the amount of DPS talents you can take.

Arcane Mage can't access Slow, a former baseline ability, because of other necessary DPS talents. Dragon's Breath for example is a confused spell - it's a DPS increase to use on AoE packs, but also a CC ability that breaks on damage. Is Dragon's Breath competing with other DPS talents or other utility talents like Ring of Frost? The answer is both, which makes comparing things in your head harder than it has ever been. You have to spec into Ice Block to reach Spellsteal. Don't need Ice Block this fight? Too bad because you are the only dispel in your group - everyone else's optimal DPS pathway requires 3 points of investment to reach instead of your 1. It's a dizzying amount of optimization for raid leaders to do.

The issue is the crazy amounts of branching pathways that make no logical sense. And even if they did make sense, no one would max out the would-be utility pathway. Yes the trees are divided into 3 lanes, but those lanes have no theme. For Mage the left side goes from Ice Block, to Ring of Frost, to Shifting Power. The middle goes from Rune of Power, to Mass Poly, to Temporal Warp. Right side from Invisible, to Alter Time, to Meteor or Displacement. Players have to carve the optimal path through all the DPS nodes, avoiding the utility nodes unless absolutely necessary to reach a DPS node.

The old talent grid gave (some) agency on how to use parts of the spec's kit. Dragonflight talents feel like choosing between sets of weaknesses in the class - or pick all the weaknesses for max DPS. Even older talent trees felt more like sets of bonuses stacking on top of each other to build up strengths on top of the baseline kit.

This isn't true. If you can't access them it's because you prioritize another.