Would annihilating the Horde have changed major outcomes?

[Linkedblade]

The issue isn't whether they would help Azeroth, but more would they be able to get help before it's already too late? If we're talking the timeline where Orcs didn't invade, not only would the Night Elves not have any contacts with the Tauren, Trolls, Humans, Dwarves and Gnomes, but at this stage all the druids are still in deep hibernation. There's no way they would have the manpower to deal with C'thun and his insectile forces, which were already spreading into Ungoro, the Barrens and a couple of other places I'm forgetting.

That's not true at all. Night elves fought alongside Tauren and Earthen(dwarves) in the War of the Ancients. I don't recall Gnomes being mentioned. And Trolls are everywhere. In fact Night Elves are Trolls that were mutated by the Well of Eternity.

The War of the Shifting Sands would have played out differently, yes.

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In the original timeline, there was no help for the night elves, no help from Tauren or Earthen. That's even mentioned in the War of the Ancient books.

I'd have to reread it, but I'm sure they were there. The events of the novel only add Krasus, Rhonin, and Broxigar, but everything plays out the same.

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In the original timeline, there was no help for the night elves, no help from Tauren or Earthen. That's even mentioned in the War of the Ancient books.

I'd have to reread it, but I'm sure they were there. The events of the novel only add Krasus, Rhonin, and Broxigar, but everything plays out the same.

[Kyphael]

Loved reading the what-if scenarios. Most of them are entertaining, and fun to think and discuss, but there's a reason Aucald is moderator of the Lore Forums. The level of commitment to the innumerous intricacies in lore, talking 20+ years here of thousands of quests, is staggering.

It's what-if scenarios versus canon. Essentially, it's fanfiction versus canon, to put it simply. Fun to discuss, but there's no debunking canon. That's like engaging R.R Martin in an argument online about how events COULD have, would have, and should have played out in Game of Thrones. If R.R Martin knows his lore, and he should, he can just point and say "no, see? I wrote it, the character said so, your revisionist history is pure head canon." Discussion's over. You want to win the argument? Write your own story, establish the canon, then have someone try to challenge you.

It's that simple. In writing, the writer is GOD. The writer is omniscient, because the writer is the creator. He or she speaks through their characters, and when they build the world, outside of intentional parallel universes (which most writers want to stay the hell away from, precisely because passionate fans go overboard like this; "alternate universes" remain Blizzard's biggest mistake) there's no credibility in discussing "what if" scenarios. It has no bearing on the established lore.

Before WoW the game became bigger than the story they were telling, Thrall was maybe it's biggest protagonist. There's a reason Metzen was "Horde biased." It's not because he hated Humans, Dwarves, and Elves. It's because the story he was trying to tell wasn't about ripping off Lord of the Rings. Thrall was always meant to be the hero as the game got traction and became more popular. It became Thrall's destiny to help save the world because the writers willed it and wrote it that way. It's ironic, really. The offspring of barbarians invading the planet went on to lead salvation for that planet. Much more interesting than "humans and elves unite without orcs to save the day!" Too formulaic, and Warcraft despite being accused of ripping off Lord of the Rings, or D&D, or Warhammer, for the most part, had a pretty original and intriguing story until it went off the rails with the MMO format.

Nevertheless, there is no disputing Thrall's and the Horde's importance in defeating The Legion. It's inscribed, officially, by the lore makers, by the writers. Everything else? A united, fully powered, uninhibited Eastern Kingdoms is just fantasy head canon. Fun to read though.

[Calfredd]

@Varodoc
See how I predicted the future?

Very poorly evidently.

[Feanoro]

@Kyphael
Of course it's head canon, it's a speculation thread for fun. No one's arguing with the canon.

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Very poorly evidently.

You're welcome to your opinion.

[Kyphael]

@Kyphael
Of course it's head canon, it's a speculation thread for fun. No one's arguing with the canon.

I don't know, Varodoc got pretty heated tried to dispute canon, even in a hypothetical discussion.

[Feanoro]

I don't know, Varodoc got pretty heated tried to dispute canon, even in a hypothetical discussion.

Considering the number of replies here that went along the lines of "Blizz said the orcs were important! This thread is crap!", I can't blame anyone getting annoyed.

[Ardenaso]

You'd have to define what you mean by "technical more specific," then? Are you looking for an Ask a CDev type of developer mention or quote?

I mean Andormu's explanation, yes

[Surfd]

The Lich King would not be created. The Scourge would not exist. Lordaeron, Dalaran, and Quel'Thalas would still stand in their prime state. The Third War would have been averted.

100000% super highly doubt that.

First off, Lich King still happens, as Ner'zhul was captured by Kiljaden while fleeing Dranor. He was never on azeroth, so wouldn't have been caught in the purge. Him being twisted and sealed into the frozen throne and sent to azeroth still happens, scourge still exist. The horde being wiped out after the second war changes effectively nothing in the Human Campaign of WC3, which means that Lordaeron, Dalaran and Quel'Thalas all still end up ravaged by the Scourge. Arthas still ends up becoming Lich king. Jaina likely ends up dead at his hands.

The only major question is the Kalimdor Campaign.

Several variances occur here:
- No Orcs means nobody takes the Prophet's warnings seriously, Thrall never leads the horde west, nobody follows him, so the entire alliance stays in the eastern kingdoms and most likely get decimated fighting the scourge or get murdered after Arthas assumes the mantle of Lich King.
- No Orcs means The trolls on the Echo Islands get wiped out, since the only thing that saved them was the arrival of the Horde who were fleeing the Eastern Kingdoms.
- No Orcs means the Tauren get wiped out as well: Centaurs would have killed them all if it wasn't for Thrall
- No Orcs mean no Gromm / Hellscream Clan. Means Manaroth has no army to taint with fel energy so cenarius lives. It also means so does Manaroth, since Gromm / Thrall aren't around to kill him afterwards.
- No Orcs means no Illidan, since it was the demonic interference related to the Orcs that forced them to release him. Without them, he is still rotting in prison when the Legion shows up in force.
- No Orcs also means the elves are screwed, because the only reason they began the process of re-awakening the sleeping druids and other groups was because the Orcs started logging their turf and they were losing that fight. Without the Orcs, they end up being far less prepared for the arrival of the Scourge or the Legion who follow after. Pretty sure that if the orcs hadn't put them on a war footing, the druids would all have died in their barrow dens during the initial scourge assaults.

And of course, finally: No matter how you slice it, without both the Alliance AND the Horde (neither of which would be on Kalimdor if there are no Orcs after the end of the second war) the Night Elves get wafflestomped by the Scourge / Legion at Mt Hyjal.

[Aucald]

I mean Andormu's explanation, yes

Beyond Andormu and other Bronzes weighing in on the possibility of such an alternate continuity, I don't think the developers have explicitly stated anything about that hypothetical - at least not that I can easily locate. Beyond Andormu's mention of the horrors of Azeroth without the Horde in the Third War, there's also an exploration of what Lordaeron would've been liked had Thrall died as a child, shown in Twilight of the Aspects. Basically, Aedalas Blackmoore finally gets his head straight and actually puts force behind a coup to usurp Terenas Menethil, successfully becoming the new king of Lordaeron (Uther the Lightbringer and Anduin Lothar also die in these events). We also know from the CoT Hyjal raid that if any of the key players in the strategy to hold Archimonde at bay die prematurely, then Archimonde wins the day and the Legion goes on to destroy Azeroth. Every alternate timeline or future scenario we see in WoW or posited in the external media all end in worse fates for all involved.

[Surfd]

In Canon, Lordaeron (the largest and strongest human kingdom) and Quel'Thalas (90% of its population) were basically exterminated. Dalaran also suffered massive casualties, as did the Night elves, who sacrificed their Immortality.

In cannon though, literally all of that still happens regardless of if there are or are not Horde after the end of the second war. With the exception of the handful of orcs still in blackrock mountain and a few bits scattered here or there, Thrall took the entirety of the Horde with him when he followed the Prophets warning and commandeered the ships to head west. The Horde were out of the picture after the prologue campaign in WC3, and had zero impact on the Alliance Campaign involving the discovery of the Scourge Threat, eventual fall of Arthas, and destruction / decimation of most of the Northern part of the Eastern Kingdoms. If all the Horde on Azeroth had been killed to the last man instead of thrown in the internment camps, absolutely nothing would have changed.

[Maxilian]

Which is itself incorrect. The presence of the internment camps had nothing to do with Kel'Thuzad, his research into Necromancy, and his later entry into the Lich King's service. The death of the remaining orcs (instead of their internment) of the Second War would also have occurred after WC2: BtDP, meaning Ner'zhul would've still destroyed Draenor, been lost in the Nether, found by Kil'jaeden, and still become the first Lich King. With all those still in place, the Plague would've still come to Lordaeron, the Scourge would still exist, and Arthas himself would be lost and become a Death Knight since those events also have no connection to the remaining orcs in Lordaeron. Garrosh would not have to come to exist, sure; but since the Legion would've been triumphant at Hyjal, none of the events of WoW would come to exist in any case.

Wouldn't that bring a world where we have the Legion Vs the Scourge? as at that point the LK was already free of the Legion command.

I assume that the Forsaken would also exist, but with the whole Legion conquering most of the world, plus the Lich King, making them most likely dead at that point, or allied with some minor factions that survived the whole Legion incursion, like those survivors we found in Argus.

[Loreth88]

In cannon though, literally all of that still happens regardless of if there are or are not Horde after the end of the second war. With the exception of the handful of orcs still in blackrock mountain and a few bits scattered here or there, Thrall took the entirety of the Horde with him when he followed the Prophets warning and commandeered the ships to head west. The Horde were out of the picture after the prologue campaign in WC3, and had zero impact on the Alliance Campaign involving the discovery of the Scourge Threat, eventual fall of Arthas, and destruction / decimation of most of the Northern part of the Eastern Kingdoms. If all the Horde on Azeroth had been killed to the last man instead of thrown in the internment camps, absolutely nothing would have changed.

but how can the scourge be created if the legion don’t have orcs and with it no Ner'Zhul?

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I'd have to reread it, but I'm sure they were there. The events of the novel only add Krasus, Rhonin, and Broxigar, but everything plays out the same.

The outcome was the same, but the path was mostly different.

[Le Conceptuel]

On topic, "Azeroth would fall without the Horde" is a shallow excuse at best, endorsement of social Darwinism at worst. "The unworthy and weak were killed by the Horde, making Azeroth's defenders stronger!" Gee, what a fascinating sentiment, the whole "removing the undesirables". Maybe there's a reason that Blizz quickly changes the subject after spewing the "Horde are necessary" line.

Isn't the topic of discussion "would it have been better if the Alliance committed genocide"?

[Surfd]

but how can the scourge be created if the legion don’t have orcs and with it no Ner'Zhul?

Because the creation of the scourge had nothing to do with the legion having orcs on Azeroth following the end of the second war. In fact, the creation of the Scourge was entirely BECAUSE the Orcs had failed in the second war so the Legion was looking for new options. Ner'Zhul wasn't on Azeroth when he got black-bagged by the Legion: He was caught when he tried to escape through a portal he had opened on Draenor. He still ends up a popsicle, still ends up being sent to northrend, and still ends up creating the scourge.

[Feanoro]

Isn't the topic of discussion "would it have been better if the Alliance committed genocide"?

The double standard of this forum is always "But you can't kill the Horde, that's bad!" while having zero problem with the body count they've racked up, enough to rival the Scourge. I'd be willing to bet part of the inspiration for this topic was the recent back and forth over the internment camps. Horde posters sobbing that it was cruel and inhumane, when the only sane alternative for dealing with a demon fueled alien army of killing machines was executing them all before they could try again. Instead of exploring what could have been different had the more hardline choice been made, the thread has been repeatedly bombarded with "But orcs are needed in canon!" "You can't execute the Horde, they made Azeroth stronger!"

Have you considered that the official version literally whitewashes the Old Horde's omnicidal rampage into a good thing? This is emphasized by how Thrall's Horde kept the same institutions and customs from a time they claim to be ashamed of, and naming things for the worst psychotic butchers of the Old Horde.

Have you noticed how there's posts here trying like Blizzard to excuse social Darwinism? You know, "it's a good thing the Horde was there to massacre everyone, it made the Alliance strong by removing the weak". Hell, that was the vaunted "lesson of Pandaria," removing the unfit. Trying to claim "oh but the Horde means there's enough bodies to stand against Threat X" is absurd when the reason Azeroth needs bodies in the first place is that the Old Horde was the Legion's vanguard and slaughtered most of their able bodied.

Would it have been better if the Old Horde had been executed? You're correct, that speculation is the point of the thread. The problem is that it's drowned out by defenses for the Old Horde, all the while pretending they did nothing and missing the point entirely.



For the people saying the Scourge would have been created anyway, you missed the part where Gorefiend took artifacts from Azeroth to Draenor so that Ner'zhul could create the portals. While the Scourge might have happened another way, it would not have been a direct result of allowing the Old Horde to live.

[Surfd]

Without orcish terrorists and rebels rampaging through southern Lordaeron, the Scourge would be met with much more resistance from the human kingdom. At the time of the Scourging, Lordaeron had to fight on two fronts, due to the massive orc uprising in the south. Words cannot express how much this weakened Lordaeron and their war effort against the Scourge.

Furthermore, the Cult of the Damned grew in numbers only because many peasants in Lordaeron were displeased with the very high taxes required to maintain the internment camps, as well as with King Terenas' failure to contain the orc rebels and prevent them from rampaging blindly through the southern regions.

Without these issues affecting Lordaeron and King Terenas' popularity (issues related to keeping the orcs alive instead of just slaughtering them and let bygones be bygones), the Cult of the Damned will not find enough members to set the Lich King's plans in motion.

I find this to be a highly suspect proposition, because you haven't clearly thought this through.

Yes, if there are no Orcish internment camps, things like the high taxes and the like involved in running them won't be an issue, but let me ask you: Where did the Orcs go? It's not like someone waved a magic wand and they all just peacefully disappeared.

The hypothetical question here is: What if the alliance straight up hunted them all down and killed them instead of putting them in internment camps.

Well, this raises several HUGE issues, the number one issue being that the "Lethargy" of the Orcs was due to them being suddenly cut off from the demonic energy that relentlessly pressured them to be abnormally aggressive. It didn't turn them into groveling pacifists. It simply cut them lose from the demon powered rage-fog that had been driving their actions for basically the entirety of the first and second wars. They accepted being rounded up and tossed into the internment camps for the most part because they didn't really have a reason NOT to, and because they were still effectively suffering from fel-withdrawl.

Now, do you honestly think that if the Alliance had started butchering / murdering them instead of simply throwing them into the camps, that the situation would not have unfolded differently? They may not have been powered by fel-rage anymore, but they sure as shit aren't going to just stand there and let themselves be slaughtered without fighting back.

So instead of 6 years of internment camps, where the VAST majority of the remaining orcish forces are under watch in controlled locations, you would have had the ENTIRE remaining orcish army engaging in guerrilla survival battles as the Alliance tried to hunt them to extinction.

6 years of internment camps would be NOTHING compared to 6 years of fighting hardened combatants literally fighting for their existence. If the alliance actually attempted to hunt down and destroy all the orcish forces, there would have been major, serious combat actions all over the place as the orcs fought to survive. It wouldn't be a matter of peasants being angry at taxes being needed to run the camps. It would be a matter of the peasants being angry because an orcish guerrilla team raised their villiage to the ground while fleeing the army, and taxes are going up to keep that army in the field AND conscription is going up because the orcish raiding keeps killing people.

In all likelyhood as well, it would have been every clan for themselves, so you wouldnt have just had the Blackrock holdouts in BRM. You probably would have had several other clans join them there as well. Frostwolves might have fled to Alterac and fortified themselves there. You'd have armed groups of Orcs digging themselves into any location they could fortify and defend everywhere, and seige actions to starve them out or dislodge them would likely be incredibly costly in terms of resources, deaths and other things.

The only reason it was "a handful of orcish terrorists" at the time the scourge kicked things off to start WC3 was because the bulk of the Orcish armies were in internment camps or mostly minding their own business keeping off the alliance's radar. If word got out the alliance was slaughtering every orc they encountered, that "handful of orcish terrorists" would have become an "army" of orcish terrorists. It's not unreasonable to imagine that if the alliance had attempted to wipe the orcs out at the end of the second war, they would still be fighting heavy actions to root them all out 6 years later, so nothing at all would have changed in regards to the distractions and whatnot that the Cult of the Damned took advantage of when establishing the Plague to bring the Scourge.

In fact, the alliance would likely have been weakened from years of prolonged military action trying to root out all of the Horde survivors.

The TLDR of it is: It's very easy to SAY that the alliance "Hunts down and kills all the survivors". It's likely to be an entirely different beast to actually accomplish that however when the "survivors" are most of the remains of an army of battle hardened warriors who just got finished nearly tearing your entire continent a new ass, and who definitely are not just going to stand there meekly and let you lop off their heads.

[Loreth88]

Because the creation of the scourge had nothing to do with the legion having orcs on Azeroth following the end of the second war. In fact, the creation of the Scourge was entirely BECAUSE the Orcs had failed in the second war so the Legion was looking for new options. Ner'Zhul wasn't on Azeroth when he got black-bagged by the Legion: He was caught when he tried to escape through a portal he had opened on Draenor. He still ends up a popsicle, still ends up being sent to northrend, and still ends up creating the scourge.

Then what is this post about? If the alliance annihilate the Horde, they do it only on Azeroth or in both planet? If the alliance annihilate the orcs on both places there is no Ner’Zhul and he is the key to creation of the scourge. Many ppl don’t know he is the first Lick King and if he is not weakened by Illidan he never needed Arthas either.

[Yetanothernewbie]

Then what is this post about? If the alliance annihilate the Horde, they do it only on Azeroth or in both planet? If the alliance annihilate the orcs on both places there is no Ner’Zhul and he is the key to creation of the scourge. Many ppl don’t know he is the first Lick King and if he is not weakened by Illidan he never needed Arthas either.

Because the internment camps system didn't pick up real steam until after the events of the Alliance Expedition going to Draenor to stop The Horde led by Ner'zhul. The Legion still creates The Scourge, makes Ner'zhul the Lich King and sends him to Northrend. Like others have already pointed out the orc remnants mattered very little to the events of the Alliance campaign.

[Surfd]

Then what is this post about?

Maybe you should read the very first post by the person who actually started the topic, where they asked:

if instead of interning orcs at the end of the second war, had the Alliance out and out hunted down and wiped out all orcs and their allies at the end of the Second War

This requires that the second war be over. The thing that ended the second war was the disabling of the Dark portal. When the Dark Portal was disabled, Ner'zhul was already on Draenor, which puts him out of the reach of the alliance on Azeroth. Hell, to be fully accurate, Ner'zhul was already in the process of escaping Draenor through one of his portals (which is what ends up landing him in the Legions lap where he gets iced) BEFORE the Dark Portal is closed, because they were forced to close the Portal to prevent the destruction of Draenor from spilling over into Azeroth.

The topic isn't about the Alliance wiping out all Horde, on all worlds, everywhere. It's specifically about how the alliance dealt with the Orcs who were stranded on Azeroth when the portal closed and the war ended.

[Loreth88]

Maybe you should read the very first post by the person who actually started the topic, where they asked:


This requires that the second war be over. The thing that ended the second war was the disabling of the Dark portal. When the Dark Portal was disabled, Ner'zhul was already on Draenor, which puts him out of the reach of the alliance on Azeroth.

The topic isn't about the Alliance wiping out all Horde, on all worlds, everywhere. It's specifically about how the alliance dealt with the Orcs who were stranded on Azeroth when the portal closed and the war ended.

Oh yes my bad, but the horde remnants do very little with the alliance is still incorrect. The alliance spend to much gold keeping to orcs in the camps. Even Gilneas decide to leave and why not, kingdoms ravaged and people killed, wounded, many orphans need to take care of and the survivors pay taxes for the orc camps.