Seriously, DO SOMETHING, stop punishing players!

[xero5141]

Stop punishing players for wanting to play your game, Blizzard.
Started AV +18 > tank dies on first boss > we CR him > in same moment DPS leaves = deplated.
Started Temple +16 > healer dies on trash (before first boss) > DPS leaves = deplated.
Started NO +15 > healer gets "dc" (he was back by the time our 2 dpsers left).

STOP PUNISHING PEOPLE FOR PLAYING YOUR GAME!

Either do 1 of these:

1. Giving people a ban from using LFD because other players voted them out is toxic and cannot work.

2. This could work, except then the goal would be to just leave the key at the first sign of adversity so that it doesn't depelete, probably resulting in more wasted time than before.


3. I don't even know what you mean here, tbh.

4. I agree with this, except for that if one person wants to forfeit and the other 4 don't, then what?

[Neuroticaine]

Despite what some people are in here vehemently arguing, I whole-heartedly support the deserter debuff for M+ leavers. People should absolutely be punished for ruining something for 4 other people. I don't agree with day(s) long bans though. Make the debuff long enough to last about as long as the average length of 2 runs.

And if you find that the group genuinely isn't up to par for content, I think a forfeit option for the keyholder is a perfectly viable solution to end dead end runs without a deserter buff.

M+ as a whole has been a massive cancer on the playerbase, and has done nothing about player toxicity but make it worse.

[HansOlo]

Stop punishing players for wanting to play your game, Blizzard.
Started AV +18 > tank dies on first boss > we CR him > in same moment DPS leaves = deplated.
Started Temple +16 > healer dies on trash (before first boss) > DPS leaves = deplated.
Started NO +15 > healer gets "dc" (he was back by the time our 2 dpsers left).

STOP PUNISHING PEOPLE FOR PLAYING YOUR GAME!

Either do 1 of these:

1. Give 1/3/5/7... days RESTRICTION from using LFD tool to person who leaves dungeon before timer runs out (or gets voted out).

2. DONT deplate key lvl if someone leaves before timer ends.

Someone invested time into that +15, 17, 20, 22.... key. They shouldn't waste time to get lower RNG key if something goes wrong. People should be able to keep their key level. If they want lower lvl > they talk to NPC in Valdrakken.

3. Make us choose dungeon difficulty on "key console" before we even start the dungeon.

4. Give us option to vote to "forfeit" the key so that group may disband without any consequences/punishes if it's obvious that healer/tank/dpsers can't pull numbers.

Wasted whole weekend evening into Qing into grps just to leave the dun before killing first boss.


edit: swapped word "ban" with "restriction" in using LFD tool. Since it seems many people got triggered by that 1 word without looking at whole concept.
+ added 4th option.

Depleted key = you have fail.

1. You failed to join a group, that is capable.
2. You failed to create a group, that is capable.

All of the people, during all the time will DC. That is a risk everyone runs, including the top guilds. Also, people would abuse any handicap setting you are suggesting.

I think you should calm down.

[cigawoot]

Stop punishing players for wanting to play your game, Blizzard.
Started AV +18 > tank dies on first boss > we CR him > in same moment DPS leaves = deplated.
Started Temple +16 > healer dies on trash (before first boss) > DPS leaves = deplated.
Started NO +15 > healer gets "dc" (he was back by the time our 2 dpsers left).

STOP PUNISHING PEOPLE FOR PLAYING YOUR GAME!

Either do 1 of these:

1. Give 1/3/5/7... days RESTRICTION from using LFD tool to person who leaves dungeon before timer runs out (or gets voted out).

2. DONT deplate key lvl if someone leaves before timer ends.

Someone invested time into that +15, 17, 20, 22.... key. They shouldn't waste time to get lower RNG key if something goes wrong. People should be able to keep their key level. If they want lower lvl > they talk to NPC in Valdrakken.

3. Make us choose dungeon difficulty on "key console" before we even start the dungeon.

4. Give us option to vote to "forfeit" the key so that group may disband without any consequences/punishes if it's obvious that healer/tank/dpsers can't pull numbers.

Wasted whole weekend evening into Qing into grps just to leave the dun before killing first boss.


edit: swapped word "ban" with "restriction" in using LFD tool. Since it seems many people got triggered by that 1 word without looking at whole concept.
+ added 4th option.

The only thing I could even remotely agree with on this list is getting rid of key depletion on keys 20 or lower. Above 20 key depletion is needed in order to punish strategies where you abandon the key if it isn't timed so you can retry the dungeon, which would be popular to do in keys over 20 to maximize score. This removes the commoditization of keystones though, and could result in certain non-meta classes getting excluded from groups even more.

Options 1 and 4 though are insane and would actively make the game worse. With Option 1, should I get restricted from LFG if I get voted out because they don't like the color of my staff? Option 4 lets you hold the group hostage.

Even then, there is the real downside of options 2 and 3 is the negative effects of resulting in the lack of keystone commoditization, which I think is something Blizzard wants to preserve.

[Makabreska]

There is "not a single mistake/death/missed interrupt category? Or....?
You dare to say these rules suite my needs only? Do you know how HUGE is demand for restrictions to leavers/afkers in M+ keys?

And yet, I don't see it in this thread.

You got into a key, you got a leaver. Happens in every online game. No need to immediately make an emotional thread with horrible "solutions".

[Palapop]

And yet, I don't see it in this thread.

You got into a key, you got a leaver. Happens in every online game. No need to immediately make an emotional thread with horrible "solutions".

And it is fine if it triggers you after it happens 3 times in row. And YOU are the 1 who gets punished by deplating your key or wasting your time. We're not speaking about 3-5-10 mins. More like 2hrs +.


If solo shuffle leavers can end up being punished, I see no reason why m+ leavers shouldn't get the same treatment.

[Makabreska]

And it is fine if it triggers you after it happens 3 times in row. And YOU are the 1 who gets punished by deplating your key or wasting your time. We're not speaking about 3-5-10 mins. More like 2hrs +.


If solo shuffle leavers can end up being punished, I see no reason why m+ leavers shouldn't get the same treatment.

I got a leaver in like 10% of my runs, and only when it is obvious we are not gonna make it. You got unlucky. Not a reason to instantly implement such draconic solutions.

[Delekii]

Dunno how you ended up with such conclusion, but ok......?



There is "not a single mistake/death/missed interrupt category? Or....?
You dare to say these rules suite my needs only? Do you know how HUGE is demand for restrictions to leavers/afkers in M+ keys?

No, I'm saying your suggestions suit your needs. The demand for restrictions to leavers is not nearly as big as you think it is; people who are just happily running keys aren't posting on forums about it.

Everything you suggest comes at a cost to other people.

Stop spinning my words.
No one is forced to stay........ PAST original key timer. If you have signed up for something- you have to stay for full duration. Same thing happens in Solo Shuffle.

Nobody is forced to stay for the original key timer either. M+ isn't solo shuffle; the same rules don't apply. You don't queue for M+, you aren't against other people, you are in there with 5 specific people that have been hand picked, who can be vetted in whatever manner you deem fit. It's like whinging for being locked to a mythic lockout because you joined a run and got booted.

You already have the means to fix your own problems; invite people that suit your goals.

Your time isn't worth more than other people's time; ergo, you can't hold them hostage anymore than they can force you to invite them.

[LordVargK]

Blizzard punished me with stupid system which gave me 3 deplated keys. Where I have to do lower difficulty again and then to push for SAME LVL I HAD already.
Don't you see the "philosophy" behind it? It's flawed.

It's really not hard to fix. No one would bat an eye for leavers if their key didn't lose worth because someone left run.

Blizzard doesnt punish you. You've just reached the limit of your abilities. Be that gameplay wise or your ability to assemble a functioning group.

Also it's strange that you feel entitled to never decrease your key...

To make a productive suggestion here:
Let players upgrade their keys if they ran another key. At the moment you can exchange your key for a new one after timing a dungeon that has the same or higher level. I feel that this new key should have the same level as the key you've just ran. That way you're encouraged to help others and more high level keys get brought into the game.
And since you can freely downgrade, you have no disadvantages with this system.

[Lolites]

There is a solution out there, however seems like you don't want it. It's called stop pugging

no need to, just TALK with the people before starting the key
if you have someone who just want to time it even if it takes whole day and someone who only wants to ++ it for high score, expectations are too different and chances someone will be dissapointed high as hell...
OP strikes me as someone who joins in key thats marked in DF as "in time, fast run, wanna +2" and then is surprised when people leave soon when they see it might not even be in time...

- - - Updated - - -

"Quit punishing players!"
[B][I]Suggests multiple "solutions" that pretty blatantly punishes players.

"STOP punisihing people!! ...unless they slightly inconvenience me" seems to be his way of thinking

[Lucetia]

no need to, just TALK with the people before starting the key
if you have someone who just want to time it even if it takes whole day and someone who only wants to ++ it for high score, expectations are too different and chances someone will be dissapointed high as hell...
OP strikes me as someone who joins in key thats marked in DF as "in time, fast run, wanna +2" and then is surprised when people leave soon when they see it might not even be in time...

Yeah, there's that too. I have a friend who usually gets the pugs for our group and generally at the start of the run he's like "I don't care if we time it, just want to finish it" and never had any of the problems people have with leavers. Except for 1 time this hunter had a high IO and was standing in every avoidable mechanic and claimed he didn't have to follow the M+ affixes either. My friend asked him if he bought it and stuff the hunter got mad and left. Granted we replaced him with another player and +2'ed it right after.

[Nymrohd]

Just remove key depletion? Seems like the easiest thing to ask . . . What is the purpose anyway?

[Iamimpressive]

Just remove key depletion? Seems like the easiest thing to ask . . . What is the purpose anyway?

Purpose is to stretch progression timeline. If you dont deplete a key you either get stuck in place either you progress forward.
Depleting they key is just a features that milks gametime from most users.
People would leave keys even if depleted feature would not not exist but then, nobody would realy care enough.

Anyway, glad to see people focus on toxic game features instead of asking some random dudes to behave different(asking for friendly features from game devs we pay seems fair).

[Nalam the Venom]

Oh. People still run these legit?

I just WoW token whatever i feel like getting in vault each week.

Instant groups and never any problems.

[Azharok]

question to both of you: do you think "indestructible" keys would change many things in both scenarios?
keyholder wouldn't feel punished if someone leaves grp who thinks (s)he can do better than that?

People would just leave more, since nothing is lost. You think it would make people stick around more, it won't :

1 - People will leave even sooner than before the moment something wrong happens, or they would ask to rerun the key to hopefully get it in time.

2 - People won't stick around for a 2 hour wipe fest more just because "nothing is lost", they'll just swap out the weaker elements of the group and retry.

I've timed a few keys that were considered "dead" by one of the party members, we pushed through, sometimes we were in time by seconds, sometimes we were overtime by seconds. Obviously if you spent 10 mins to get to first boss in HoV or AA, then yeah your key is dead...

I've left some HoVs this week 30 seconds after having inserted the key, tank does the standard triple pull (Tyrannical week so "ez"), two dps die to frontal, trash doesn't die, kill tanks. Now, maybe at that precise moment the key wasn't dead, but it's a pretty good indication of how the rest of the key is going to go. No need to waste time with people who aren't on their A game.

[javierdsv]

OP, Post this in the official forums, and also send it as suggestion in game.
It may get more traction that way.

I think everyone agrees that downgrading keys is just a dumb system that needs to go away. If you can't time a key the only punishment there should be is to simply try again until you get it right, either with the same group or a different one.
And of course, punish you, HARD, if you leave a group before the run is done.

They will argue that right now the system ensures there are more people playing a big variety of key levels, and while that is true, they could simply allow you to select a key lvl from 1 to your highest completed key if you simply can't find a group for your highest, and not let that key deplete, downgrade or upgrade until you time your highest even if you play using it on lower keys.

Maybe, and just maybe, put on a cooldown right when you start a key at any key level, but let you try lower keys while that cooldown is up. This just to prevent people from constantly re trying them with due to the slightest mistake or kicking people indiscriminately for lower than average performance.

[Makabreska]

I think everyone agrees that downgrading keys is just a dumb system that needs to go away. If you can't time a key the only punishment there should be is to simply try again until you get it right, either with the same group or a different one.

As explained a moment ago, if there was no key downgrade on not timing it, people would simply demand a re-run on a first wipe. And then they would just leave if not complying.

[Mendzia]

So you want them to stop punishing players... by punish players (but obviously not you)?

[javierdsv]

As explained a moment ago, if there was no key downgrade on not timing it, people would simply demand a re-run on a first wipe. And then they would just leave if not complying.

Yeah, I added this to the end of my post while you wrote that:

Maybe, and just maybe, put on a cooldown right when you start a key at any key level, but let you try lower keys while that cooldown is up. This just to prevent people from constantly re trying them with due to the slightest mistake or kicking people indiscriminately for lower than average performance.

[Azharok]

And of course, punish you, HARD, if you leave a group before the run is done.

You realise the key holder CHOSE these people right ? If leavers get punished, the key holder should also get punished for not vetting the correct people for the job. Everyone should take responsability for their actions... Maybe don't invite a 1k io rogue for your weekly 20. Maybe don't invite a 2k8 reroll for your "weekly no leaver 10" and expect him to stick around for the 2+ hours it's gonna take to finish it.

Every time I see one of the threads pop up, the first thing that comes to my mind is : what key levels are they playing ? and what's their average parse in raids (if they do in fact raid), because this all screams "my ego is overblown and I am in fact terrible at the game, and can't fathom that people who are better at the game than me don't stay in keys i'm underskilled and underprepared for to carry me."