Seriously, DO SOMETHING, stop punishing players!

[Laqweeta]

and you shouldnt be punished for that or banned as the OP is requesting.

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thats the issue,

2-12 keys are amazing, people are helpful and apologetic and get along well,
13-19 keys people are bitchy, toxic and quick the blame dip/leave
20+ people are back to the amazing and helpful and apologetic.

the issue is Majority of the playerbase is stuck at the 13-19 bracket.

the difficulty of keys this season is akin to season 2 first week of Slands.

I only saw people get toxic/bitch 15+, and rightfully so - you should KNOW the dungeon/mechanics/your class.

[Squigglyo]

There is a big difference between

Rage quitting because of one mistake and your a tryhard who probably caused that mistake.

and

Leaving the group because its not worth staying in.




The higher the key, the more likely a key is justifiably 'quit'.
Any 'punishments' will simply cause 'high ranked' players to not group with 'low ranked' players.
The ability to leave a terrible key is the only reason half the good players play with the bad players.

[shane brannigan]

This tells me all I need to know.

So if I see one leaver (or leave myself) once every 30 or so dungeons, and you've experienced that 1 time every 30 or so dungeon. That's
96% of dungeons that are completed (didn't say in time, just completed), how is the 4% (rounding) of leavers you and I experience a problem that needs fixing ? It's a fringe event, it does not happen often enough to warrant fixing.

If people are experiencing higher rates of people ditching the key, there must be other things to consider : are they contributing to the key, did they pick the group members carefully. There's a reason M+ is designed to scale.



There's a difference between carrying your guild-mates or friends who suck at the game and carrying randoms. We probably be on discord to start off, and then I guess it would be a teachable moment, they might learn a trick or two.



If I am trapped in a key that won't be timed (meaning : multiple fuck-ups, if no-one dies and it's out of time, then that's just poor play from us) or that won't be completed to +10minutes overtime before i can leave without penalty, I (and others) will just go afk. You're better off keeping it at is, and redo key one level lower, less time wasted for everyone involved. There is no scenario or punishement that blizzard could enforce short of actual bans that would prevent "leavers" to game the system. And if anything it would hurt pugging more, because now you'll HAVE to play with people you know or else fear the ban... Which is convenient since that's the crowd the system was designed to cater too. You can also discuss before inserting the key that you are going for completion rather than "in time", so everyone knows what to expect to some extent.

I've left my own keys for crying out loud, after inviting what I thought were "good enough" players for the job. Fastest brick ever, it's fine, just drop group and queue again.

You're all making it sound like the "leaver" is out there to get you, to hurt you, he's not. Key goes sideways he bails, just wants his loot and his io, doesn't care about you, nor should you. It's a video-game no hard feelings.

I'm gonna be dead ass with that fact that you're soo against an easily avoidable punishment because, I don't know you're afraid of a situations that would probably never affect you. does suggest you're part of the problem. if you don't repeat leave its not an issue, you're probably not going to get held hostage, it probably wouldn't affect your own key. and if yes the leaver is rare, but very very frustrating occurrence. and in the situation that they show a repeated habit of leaving just half there weekly box. it's not even that bad. it's just a you reap what you sow situation.

if you went to primary school you probably dealt with something like the stickers where if you're good you get to take something out of a lottery box at the end of the week. its same as that shit, bad kids probably never get a go a the box. simple probably fair like 80% of the time. fixes a problem I see people crying about all the time.

was just trying to say bad kids shouldn't get rewards in a more gamer bro friendly way, forgetting gamers aren't exactly known for listening to people they don't have pre-established relationships with. and yeah people get upset over keys its normal you put work in then some douche bag that never got punished as a kid shows up. shits the bed calls the healer a shit scrub and leaves. some times the healer does. But blizzard aren't going to hire 20000 gm's to moderate the game so punishments systems are probably the legit route.

like no hard feelings it is a game, and bad actors never think they're bad actors, but they should get punished. otherwise you get twitter.

[Lahis]

Tried that. Guess what, every guild has its own cliques of people who only group up with eachother, and they're not gonna invite your ass. Like MAYBE if you're a tank or healer you can MAYBE get into a clique, but if you're a dps you may as well fuck off.

I've been in so many damn guilds and the only difference I noticed from being guildless is that sometimes I could see some green text, which is why I'm done with guilds, they're all useless if you're not in the IN group.

This. No guild does keys as a common activity. There is that one clique that does keys together and then berates the rest who are doomed to languish in PUG hell for not matching their io and ilvl.

[TOM_RUS]

Leavers should be punished, that's for sure.

[Makabreska]

This. No guild does keys as a common activity. There is that one clique that does keys together and then berates the rest who are doomed to languish in PUG hell for not matching their io and ilvl.

???

My guildies literally ask daily in /g or Discord "who wants to do keys", and we get groups going. Don't project your crap experiences on others. Of course there are stable groups for those who want to push hard, but it does not mean others never do anything.

[Ribbings]

If you frequently create groups that fail to complete your objective, you should at least be temporarily banned from creating groups. You're obviously not a good leader and lack skill in vetting your group. Bad leaders create a terrible environment for everyone involved. Why should 4 other party members need to suffer through your ill leadership

[shane brannigan]

Stop punishing players for wanting to play your game, Blizzard.
Started AV +18 > tank dies on first boss > we CR him > in same moment DPS leaves = deplated.
Started Temple +16 > healer dies on trash (before first boss) > DPS leaves = deplated.
Started NO +15 > healer gets "dc" (he was back by the time our 2 dpsers left).

STOP PUNISHING PEOPLE FOR PLAYING YOUR GAME!

Either do 1 of these:

1. Give 1/3/5/7... days RESTRICTION from using LFD tool to person who leaves dungeon before timer runs out (or gets voted out).

2. DONT deplate key lvl if someone leaves before timer ends.

Someone invested time into that +15, 17, 20, 22.... key. They shouldn't waste time to get lower RNG key if something goes wrong. People should be able to keep their key level. If they want lower lvl > they talk to NPC in Valdrakken.

3. Make us choose dungeon difficulty on "key console" before we even start the dungeon.

4. Give us option to vote to "forfeit" the key so that group may disband without any consequences/punishes if it's obvious that healer/tank/dpsers can't pull numbers.

Wasted whole weekend evening into Qing into grps just to leave the dun before killing first boss.


edit: swapped word "ban" with "restriction" in using LFD tool. Since it seems many people got triggered by that 1 word without looking at whole concept.
+ added 4th option.

I agree with you got the most part. I just feel like messing with their weekly box would be more of an actual punishment to these people than a suspension.
they'd probably see a suspension as a week off, comeback loot their vault and start the cycle anew. destroy the value of their box and it become their efforts were wasted and they'd be more likely to learn. providing adequate warning.

But yes the key stone not depleting would also do a lot to deal with frustration. the current system you just get triple fucked for having a leave. you're frustrated, your key deranks and your time's wasted.

[kamuimac]

Stop punishing players for wanting to play your game, Blizzard.
Started AV +18 > tank dies on first boss > we CR him > in same moment DPS leaves = deplated.
Started Temple +16 > healer dies on trash (before first boss) > DPS leaves = deplated.
Started NO +15 > healer gets "dc" (he was back by the time our 2 dpsers left).

STOP PUNISHING PEOPLE FOR PLAYING YOUR GAME!

Either do 1 of these:

1. Give 1/3/5/7... days RESTRICTION from using LFD tool to person who leaves dungeon before timer runs out (or gets voted out).

2. DONT deplate key lvl if someone leaves before timer ends.

Someone invested time into that +15, 17, 20, 22.... key. They shouldn't waste time to get lower RNG key if something goes wrong. People should be able to keep their key level. If they want lower lvl > they talk to NPC in Valdrakken.

3. Make us choose dungeon difficulty on "key console" before we even start the dungeon.

4. Give us option to vote to "forfeit" the key so that group may disband without any consequences/punishes if it's obvious that healer/tank/dpsers can't pull numbers.

Wasted whole weekend evening into Qing into grps just to leave the dun before killing first boss.


edit: swapped word "ban" with "restriction" in using LFD tool. Since it seems many people got triggered by that 1 word without looking at whole concept.
+ added 4th option.

as someone whos tank alt / dps chars and alts is getting constantly declined because i dont play meta / dont have milion .io score i dont feel sorry for you at all.

you chosen those people over dozens who would never left your group . now you suffer the consequences.

maybe next time be smarter about making your group. - but lets not pretend - you will again chose meta milion io score players hoping they will carry you.

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This. No guild does keys as a common activity. There is that one clique that does keys together and then berates the rest who are doomed to languish in PUG hell for not matching their io and ilvl.

ye - lets pretend that its because they are horrible people instead people who know what other guildies skills are and that they cba to carry them again and again.

and - what a surprise - when those poeple later pugtheir runs go horrible - what a huge surprise is is

when good players log in they are bombareded with /w asking them to join groups. im super bad at tanking just starte to time 16s and people are still constantly asking me to tank for them . if you dont get invited or dont get asked to join groups this tells a lot about you as player.

[Alroxas]

The moment timer runs out- you can leave the dun np.
But if you go dc/instant afk (instead of leaving the grp) = people vote you out and you still get deserter debuff. Simple solution imo.

So you're forcing players to stay a minimum of timer of the dungeon. What is to stop someone from leaving at exactly 1s over 30 minutes (assuming key is 30 minutes).

Also since you can't go "afk" or DC, what prevents players from playing poorly? Oh did I accidently body pull that pack? Oh did nobody interrupt the fear cast which then leads to a group wipe? So many things a player can do (or not do properly) to sink a key and how can you tell if they are intentionally doing it? Maybe they are just a bad player but either way now you're stuck with them for the minimum timer of the run until you can leave without penalty.

Don't join some grp unless youre ready to commit time to it.

That's not the problem: The problem is why should any player join a group and become the carry for the group? If other team members can't contribute equally, why should the burden of the work fall onto 1 person?

Case in point, as a healer at what point do you stop healing "stupid" DPS who stands out in the open when fighting an Enforcer in Court of Stars? Fel Denotation is a long cast and easily LoS to prevent the damage. Sure the tank might take the hit (but they have both the HP and mitigation to take it) but NO DPS should take a hit when it can easily be avoided.

"banning" them from using lfd tool = deserter debuff.

You realize that M+ isn't done through the LFD tool? Perhaps you mean to say Group Finder?

Read again what I wrote. My free time is extremely limited (aka only late nights) and working whole day just to get back home where I spend 90+ mins gaining 0 progress is NOT FUN. .

Sure but you can also see that someone else's time is equally valuable to them. In a mismatched group of good vs bad players, why should the good players "carry" the bad ones? Why should a "good" player waste more than an hour in a dungeon that should have been completed in under 30 minutes? Until you can solve this issue, punishment systems are not going to work very well. In fact, they are likely to cause more issues than they try to solve.

[kamuimac]

I only saw people get toxic/bitch 15+, and rightfully so - you should KNOW the dungeon/mechanics/your class.

no more mythic raiders and geared m+ players in 15s anymore

ofc people rage because its now genuine progress not free carry for weekly GV anymore.

and well - in past pugs had no problem carryign people in +15 - now with new tuning when +20 is like +23 from SL ofc you cant realisticaly carry baddie anymore in +20 pugs .

[tomten]

The higher the key, the more likely a key is justifiably 'quit'.
Any 'punishments' will simply cause 'high ranked' players to not group with 'low ranked' players.
The ability to leave a terrible key is the only reason half the good players play with the bad players.

This doesn't make any sense at all...
So high ranked players know they play with bad players, join those bad groups only to have the chance to leave it because they realized those "terrible keys" with "bad players" lived up to what it was??
How dumb are you bro? Yes? xD

[Alroxas]

I agree with you got the most part. I just feel like messing with their weekly box would be more of an actual punishment to these people than a suspension.
they'd probably see a suspension as a week off, comeback loot their vault and start the cycle anew. destroy the value of their box and it become their efforts were wasted and they'd be more likely to learn. providing adequate warning.

What a shallow view. You do realize there are some players who don't care about the loot. Their objective is to push score which means as soon as errors pop up in a dungeon run then the probability of not timing the key increases which means (for them) that additional time spent in the dungeon is a waste of time.

Especially on certain dungeons where the timer is so tight that yes even a DPS death (not a party wipe) means longer X kill which means not timing. Or maybe the run back is so long that it eats up too much time to successfully time the key.

But yes the key stone not depleting would also do a lot to deal with frustration.

But not having depletion can bring a whole different set of issues (that have been covered in other threads). In short, perfection would drive players to reset keys way too often.

the current system you just get triple fucked for having a leave. you're frustrated, your key deranks and your time's wasted.

Consider the alternative with a punishment system in place preventing players from leaving until the timer expires. Instead of someone leaving say 10 minutes into the dungeon: Now you have players leaving at exactly timer + 1 s over. So instead of wasting a group of 10 minutes, the group is now wasting at least 30 minutes in a key they know won't be done. Even if the key isn't depleted, that's 30 minutes gone instead of just 10.

Also that doesn't factor in the player investment in the current key which affects how they may play. For instance, Bob knowing that the key isn't going to be timed and is now just waiting for that +1 s over timer to leave without penalty, stops giving a damn about playing well. Interrupts, not standing in fire, clearing debuffs, etc all of that just go out the window. He doesn't go AFK so you can't vote him out but he doesn't play at 100% either. How much better is that than the current system?

[Azharok]

This doesn't make any sense at all...
So high ranked players know they play with bad players, join those bad groups only to have the chance to leave it because they realized those "terrible keys" with "bad players" lived up to what it was??
How dumb are you bro? Yes? xD

No, it means no one expects people to stick around in an 19AA on Tyr week after you've just wiped to Treeboss after spending lust.

[Recovery]

If you purposely leave and/or harm someones free time/play time/experience/rating- you deserve to be punished/restricted.

It's implemented within social aspect of the game (via social contract), but also in PVP solo shuffle where you get negative points AND are restricted from queueing for certain amount of time. And if same/similar behavior is repeated certain amount of time, you might get some other restrictions too.

ehh I dont really think M+ is comparable to shuffle.

[shane brannigan]

What a shallow view. You do realize there are some players who don't care about the loot. Their objective is to push score which means as soon as errors pop up in a dungeon run then the probability of not timing the key increases which means (for them) that additional time spent in the dungeon is a waste of time.

Especially on certain dungeons where the timer is so tight that yes even a DPS death (not a party wipe) means longer X kill which means not timing. Or maybe the run back is so long that it eats up too much time to successfully time the key.

that's great. But if you're just pushing score you're probably not leaving that many keys, and you're probably 2600 rating with a dedicated group. if that's your end game you're most likely a non-factor not interacting with pugs, trying to deal with the 15-19 bracket. and trying to say it's shallow is to ignore the work that go into these keys before hand. and yes poor balancing of timers is a problem but it's not everything.

But not having depletion can bring a whole different set of issues (that have been covered in other threads). In short, perfection would drive players to reset keys way too often.

yes and through punishment we can drive the perfectionists to form a perfectionist utopia community where everyone is in agreement that the key should be reset, lets not make the 1600 rating Timmy that managed to get a 17 key's problem.


Consider the alternative with a punishment system in place preventing players from leaving until the timer expires. Instead of someone leaving say 10 minutes into the dungeon: Now you have players leaving at exactly timer + 1 s over. So instead of wasting a group of 10 minutes, the group is now wasting at least 30 minutes in a key they know won't be done. Even if the key isn't depleted, that's 30 minutes gone instead of just 10.

Also that doesn't factor in the player investment in the current key which affects how they may play. For instance, Bob knowing that the key isn't going to be timed and is now just waiting for that +1 s over timer to leave without penalty, stops giving a damn about playing well. Interrupts, not standing in fire, clearing debuffs, etc all of that just go out the window. He doesn't go AFK so you can't vote him out but he doesn't play at 100% either. How much better is that than the current system?

well for starts, vote quit can be a thing. it'll probably be annoying because bob would definitely be that guy in league that wants to surrender at 20 over a 2 kill lead.
I think a set over time period of 5-10 minutes is fair. gives, Timmy a few attempts to just complete before bob wastes the time he put into this key and key leading to it's time investment. like I don't know what to say, its game I don't really respect the time investment angle. functionally speaking you waste 3 time the key owns time in that they had to level, have someone leave and then level it back up. and if Timmy leaves then he's robbing you of the chance to achieve your goals.

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No, it means no one expects people to stick around in an 19AA on Tyr week after you've just wiped to Treeboss after spending lust.

yep pretty sure that would be unanimous vote quit.

[mbit2]

Is this the bdsm community? Why so focused on punishment?
Just reward playing through bad runs.

[Grimbold21]

Yesterday I did a RLP +10 which was going fine up until the 2nd boss, where we wiped from a mixture of the healer dieing and poor placement of the fire and fire ball. We wiped until the timer ran out.

I'm guildless, and I generally approach random M+ conservatively, meaning I don't punch above my weight. If my ilvl translates into doing 9s or 10s, that's what I'll be doing till I'm ready to move up.

So depleted keys don't help me much in driving up my score. Hell, my healer alt is now higher than my dps, but that shouldn't be a surprise. That said, even when the causes of depletion are frustrating mistakes I tend to stay and do the dungeon to the end.

The other day I did SMBG on my healer where a) one of the dpsers was having internet issues and kept dcing all the time b) I had to give cliffnotes version of boss tactics because 1 or 2 people weren't familiar with the dungeon. Due to that the key wasn't timed, but finished anyway. At the end the key owner instantly removed the person who dc'ed constantly before they had a chance to come back and loot.
The tank had remarked during the run that the dps' issues ought to be punishable, and at the end told the key owner that what he just did was a bannable offense. Not sure about that, but I thought it was a dick move.
Point is, if we don't give people a chance to soldier through their failures, then this loop will just keep looping.

[Loveliest]

Want a solution?

Stop pugging. Get a guild. Find like-minded people who want to push at the same level as you. Find a time that suits everyone. Do dungeons.

While true, it's pointless advice. If you want fries with your burger, recommending getting fish and chips instead won't help. There's burger on the menu and he probably can't have fish for whatever reason.

That being said, there's no simple solution. Probably some sort of system that once you do x keys of level y, your key does not deplete beyond that level for that specific key. But yeah, that has its own issues too and only solves half the problem. And it opens up to boosting even more since key is personal but entire group benefits.

[Nymrohd]

I don’t see this as a blizz problem, but a community problem. However, there is room for blizz to improve it. On that, the pressure to do keys to be relevant in a high guild for raiding has made me stop playing. I stopped a few weeks ago at 7/8 mythic and I don’t miss it.

As much as I love raiding, the requirements has just got too high. Ranging from the gold needed for the good consumables, and time investments into keys. I had to start buying more tokens cause I don’t have the time to do both keys and farming. I will be keeping an eye on this though, if the situation improves I will be back in a heart beat.

The key depletion is a Blizzard problem. Key depletion is what is punishing for people who offer their keys and have them wasted by leavers. You are punishing people for not being precognitive when they are forming groups because neither dungeon rating nor ilvl is a solid predictory of player behaviour.