Dungeons was more fun before M+

[erifwodahs]

MoP introduced challenge mode, and Legion converted it to M+.

And how large dungeons were in TBC? WotLK? Cata? Oh wait.
OP needs to go to some thread from 2006 and necro-flame it or some shit.

[TbouncerT]

And how large dungeons were in TBC? WotLK? Cata? Oh wait.
OP needs to go to some thread from 2006 and necro-flame it or some shit.

Thank you for your entertainment, but you need some help or need to do some self-reflection.

[Rinaul]

Dungeons are still dungeons if you don't do M+. That hasn't changed. If you don't do M+ you don't have to do the M+ ruleset

[Ealyssa]

Also why, we will never see Blackrock Depths

Go play it on classic, you can do it right now. The option is available.

[Pozz]

Dungeons are still dungeons if you don't do M+. That hasn't changed. If you don't do M+ you don't have to do the M+ ruleset

I believe they meant the design etc.

New dungeons have very specific streamlined designs, where OP prefers a more optional, branching and open design.
Playing new dungeons on normal/heroic doesn't change the design of it.

[Vakna]

The fact that you said dungeons were better before M+ and then your example was BRD should be an actual crime.

[Argorwal]

I feel dungeons was better back when there was no m+. The dungeons felt like a dungeon.

Right now, every dungeon is created with a rule set by m+. It needs to be the correct way.

Also why, we will never see Blackrock Depths

Any others who think the same, or do you like m+ more?

Dungeon design changed to the 3-5 boss hallway style in TBC, and has nothing to really do with mythic+.

I’d argue we have actually expanded dungeon design with mega dungeons which have only existed in expansions with mythic+.

And dungeons have had no shortage of gimmicks and oddities in mythic+ as well like the Mists maze, Court of Stars infiltrator puzzle, necrotic wake items, etc.

[paxen]

And dungeons have had no shortage of gimmicks and oddities in mythic+ as well like the Mists maze, Court of Stars infiltrator puzzle, necrotic wake items, etc.

Also very good examples of dungeons that are clearly not primarily designed for M+. Don't blame M+ for dungeon design, it has possibly had exactly zero influence on dungeon design. All the elements people blame on M+ were either introduced in TBC or doesn't exist.

[Irian]

OP I completely agree but good luck getting people on MMO-C to see it.

Dungeons have to have a specific layout now or else they're not M+ friendly. Obviously they're going to design mobs, encounters, and routes based on the inevitability that they turn it into a M+ dungeon so there's basically no chance for creativity. They literally can't make some mechanics because it would lead to an instant wipe in a M+ scenario.

I dunno, M+ imo was a pandora's box that never should have been opened. It was cool for a bit and it's fun with friends but that's really about it, I'd honestly love to go back to the days when dungeons just had a set difficulty and were allowed to be whatever they were.

[MrLachyG]

I feel dungeons was better back when there was no m+. The dungeons felt like a dungeon.

Right now, every dungeon is created with a rule set by m+. It needs to be the correct way.

Also why, we will never see Blackrock Depths

Any others who think the same, or do you like m+ more?

this has been well documented and explained. the larger dungeons in Vanilla were set that way because the devs only thought that a person would ever run them once. not over and over again as they did. that is why all of the dungeons since then have been much shorter, 3-5 bosses usually, because the devs realised that people like running dungeons more than once; and so made them shorter to compensate.

only exception are the occasional mega dungeon

[Tziva]

Disagree, and frankly I think how fun they are is barely relevant when they barely get used. Other than in Classic, dungeons were something I'd only ever interface with for a short time until I started raiding, and then I'd never touch them again. It wasn't until CMs that dungeons became something other than brief throw-away content, and I think that move is a massive upgrade, and M+ elevated that even further by making them relevant for an entire expansion.

I get that m+ isn't for everyone, and I understand why many dislike it, but it's objectively true that it vastly increases how much people interface with dungeon content, and that makes it a lot easier to justify putting careful time and effort into designing them.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

M+ made dungeons relevant.

The tint on your nostalgia blinders is a tad too dark.

[LDancer]

Disagree, and frankly I think how fun they are is barely relevant when they barely get used. Other than in Classic, dungeons were something I'd only ever interface with for a short time until I started raiding, and then I'd never touch them again. It wasn't until CMs that dungeons became something other than brief throw-away content, and I think that move is a massive upgrade, and M+ elevated that even further by making them relevant for an entire expansion.

I get that m+ isn't for everyone, and I understand why many dislike it, but it's objectively true that it vastly increases how much people interface with dungeon content, and that makes it a lot easier to justify putting careful time and effort into designing them.

Am I the only one that wishes CMS were back? I found them to be the biggest draw card to levelling up and gearing alts? Once they left the drive was gone, and now it’s just chugging away on the main too for a score. Once KSC is reached I don’t touch dungeons on any toons

[Tziva]

Am I the only one that wishes CMS were back? I found them to be the biggest draw card to levelling up and gearing alts? Once they left the drive was gone, and now it’s just chugging away on the main too for a score. Once KSC is reached I don’t touch dungeons on any toons

I don't feel that way, but you're not alone. I see lots of people who liked CMs more than M+. The single difficulty of CM vs the infinitely scaling M+ make it vastly inferior to me just for that alone, but I think the repeatability is waaaay better on M+. I don't know anyone who touched CMs again after beating them once on each class, while tons of people run M+ every week for the entire duration of the expansion.

So yeah, disagree in my case, but you're definitely not alone. I don't really get the sentiment but I see a lot of people express it.

[salate]

Go play it on classic, you can do it right now. The option is available.

And still people do a lava run which takes approx 13 min. People really do everything to make super fast runs.

Back to op: I love m+ it gives variety and its cool

[Aesahaettr]

I actually agree, I can't stand M+. I hate the whole meta around it and having to learn routes.

Used to enjoy tanking on an alt, but even on normal and heroic people just want to follow The Correct Route and rush at pace. Just don't like that gameplay.

The focus on M+ and expectations they create are one of the reasons why I've stopped playing.

[Caprias]

OP I completely agree but good luck getting people on MMO-C to see it.

Dungeons have to have a specific layout now or else they're not M+ friendly. Obviously they're going to design mobs, encounters, and routes based on the inevitability that they turn it into a M+ dungeon so there's basically no chance for creativity. They literally can't make some mechanics because it would lead to an instant wipe in a M+ scenario.

I dunno, M+ imo was a pandora's box that never should have been opened. It was cool for a bit and it's fun with friends but that's really about it, I'd honestly love to go back to the days when dungeons just had a set difficulty and were allowed to be whatever they were.

So back to do it for 3 weeks after launch and never again?

Also your assumption is simply wrong, the streamlining started back in tbc with many of the modern dungeons being way more creative.

When playing tbcc and wotlkc right now teached me one thing it is how delusional some of you boomers are.

[xnickybx]

I've played mainly dungeons since Vanilla wow, mythic+ is the best thing to happen to dungeons. Literally every argument on this post against them has been absurd. Your problems are with pugs, not mythic+. I do m+ with my friends, there is never a worry about pacing or going the correct route. The timer isnt an issue, you can still beat the dungeon past time and get rewards from the dungeon and your vault. And if you want a big dungeon multipath dungeon like BRD... 10 man raid... literally the same thing. Im tired of stuff getting ruined because of pug culture. Get some friends.

[Tech614]

Fun = irrelevant?

Because that's what dungeons where before M+.

[mysticx]

While dungeons have gotten a bit too simplistic, don't bring up BRD to prove your point, that place was a nightmare to run even in Vanilla.

Don't get me wrong, it's an amazing zone, a proper dungeon to explore, but all the different objectives scattered throughout the place (And everybody seemingly wanting a different one) was nightmarish (Not to mention the respawn-wave ensuring you couldn't do everything), off the top of my head, there were:

Jailbreak (For the Onyxia questline)
Vaults (I'm sure something important was here, can't recall what)
Thaurissan (The endboss of the place, but rarely the goal of a run)
Dark iron forge (Smelting dark iron bars, also attunement for MC nearby)
Dark iron anvil (Crafting items with the aforementioned bars, like fire-res gear for MC)
Grim Guzzler tavern (Thorium brotherhood rep vendor, it was on the way to other places, but a lot of people wanted to stop here)

BRD was the most ambitious dungeon in Vanilla (If not the entire game up to now), but all the options just caused arguments, say what you want about linear dungeons, but it's a lot easier to do side-objectives in a dungeon when you pass nearby anyway instead of having to take a huge detour just for one thing.