Are Evokers getting a new spec?

[Ielenia]

And I will continue to use Paladin as an example of a tank spec that amplifies and enhances groups. That was the original point.

An original point that failed, since your original point was that tanks are known for their support abilities.

So again, why are you in this thread?

You don't believe bards and necromancers are happening, yet that doesn't stop you from posting on those threads, does it?

So again, why is Emberthal and the Adamant Vigil somehow different than Sarkareth and the Ebon Scales, or Viridia and the Healing Wing? Neltharion put them all together in the new voice lines.

Because if you go by that logic, the evoker class has three specs missing, not just 1, because the weyrns that joined the Alliance and the Horde are not represented in the class. That said, it's irrelevant, because it's a description of the weyrn, not the spec, because the spec doesn't exist.

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Tanks survival wouldn't be impacted by granting buffs and debuffs the way healing and DPS would.

Yes, it would. The least impacted roles would be DPS, then healers.

That's the point.

A wrong point, as repeatedly demonstrated.

[Triceron]

Tanks survival wouldn't be impacted by granting buffs and debuffs the way healing and DPS would.

That's the point.

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No, because the buff/debuff tank could have weaker base AoE or single target DPS than other tanks, which in turn is made up for by the buff/debuff, survivability, self-sustain, or something else. The issue with DPS is that if it has significantly weaker DPS than other DPS, it'll get benched. Tanks simply have more levers to play with.

If balanced properly, you bring the tank you prefer to play as. Some may want to play as a magical dragon tank. Others might want to be a magical bear that shoots lasers. Others might prefer being a Demon Hunter, etc. Different play styles suit different people.

The thing is, you're not replacing the Tank's damage by giving it to others. You're gonna be giving it out as a bonus, regardless of your spec's actual output. Just like a Priest isn't nerfing their own damage in order to provide PI, PI is given freely.

[Teriz]

You don't believe bards and necromancers are happening, yet that doesn't stop you from posting on those threads, does it?

Except I do believe Bards are coming. However they're ETC-style bards, not DnD-style Bards. As for Necromancers, I believe they're already in the game via Death Knights.

Because if you go by that logic, the evoker class has three specs missing, not just 1, because the weyrns that joined the Alliance and the Horde are not represented in the class. That said, it's irrelevant, because it's a description of the weyrn, not the spec, because the spec doesn't exist.

Incorrect. Evokers were created thousands of years ago, and their specs date back to that time, long before the Horde and Alliance came around. Which is why there's only edicts for three Weryns, and Neltharion only mentions three weryns.

Yes, it would. The least impacted roles would be DPS, then healers.

Please explain how a damage buff wouldn't increase the damage of a damage spec.

[Eeram]

I want to ask but im going to preface this with i have not read EVERYTHING yall are writing because im lazy so im sorry if its been answered.
But what is stopping other then TimeFrame of the third spec being something that you can que in as a hybrid Heal/Tank spec?
Something that Is not as good as a Main Tank or as a Raid heal but in between Think something like a Blood DK but instead of Self heal they are healing others around them.
I think with everything being set up it could be a Test for new Support specs for other classes. Yes i know there will ALWAYS be a meta and a cookie cutter team/raid team. but that really shouldn't make it impossible for them to at a new support role.
I also want to say everyone that is saying they wouldn't add a new spec without it being Test in the PTR i think we could also say this has been tested in F&F an maybe the last two weeks befor 10.1 we get it on the PTR. whats to say it doesnt come out in 10.1.5 under Content/System updates.
i say we look forward to 4/7 an see what "Blue talk" is if they say nothing there. then i think its safe to say No new spec.


TLDR Copium

[Teriz]

The thing is, you're not replacing the Tank's damage by giving it to others. You're gonna be giving it out as a bonus, regardless of your spec's actual output. Just like a Priest isn't nerfing their own damage in order to provide PI, PI is given freely.

No, the debuff is doing that. The debuff increases the damage dealt by both the tank and the other players.

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I want to ask but im going to preface this with i have not read EVERYTHING yall are writing because im lazy so im sorry if its been answered.
But what is stopping other then TimeFrame of the third spec being something that you can que in as a hybrid Heal/Tank spec?

Nothing really. In fact that would be preferable. However if Blizzard goes that route I feel it would be DPS/Heal since you can split the difference of Amplification and Weakening. The DPS side can debuff targets with their damaging spells (Shadowflame?), and the healing side can buff and amplify alongside their healing spells (Earth Magic).

That said, yeah it's possible given the flexibility of the new talent trees. However, the spec would have to be true competitive roles. For example, the DPS side has to offer competitive DPS, and the healing side has to do competitive healing. You can't slap on a hybrid tax and make both roles weaker because they share a spec. Think of Feral Druid before MoP.

Sooo a paladin dps? Because this is how new retri feel.

Also, nobody would take support, why have spot with subpar healing/taking/dps? Like, by design.
Encounter balance would either need to accomodate supports (which would lower overall mathematicall difficulty) or not, which would make them even less desirable.

The only way they could work is in non scripted enviroment - like pvp - or by giving them so great buffs/debuffs than they become mandatory.

What about a dual-role spec like old feral where one spec houses two roles?

[Aliven]

I want to ask but im going to preface this with i have not read EVERYTHING yall are writing because im lazy so im sorry if its been answered.
But what is stopping other then TimeFrame of the third spec being something that you can que in as a hybrid Heal/Tank spec?
Something that Is not as good as a Main Tank or as a Raid heal but in between Think something like a Blood DK but instead of Self heal they are healing others around them.
I think with everything being set up it could be a Test for new Support specs for other classes. Yes i know there will ALWAYS be a meta and a cookie cutter team/raid team. but that really shouldn't make it impossible for them to at a new support role.
I also want to say everyone that is saying they wouldn't add a new spec without it being Test in the PTR i think we could also say this has been tested in F&F an maybe the last two weeks befor 10.1 we get it on the PTR. whats to say it doesnt come out in 10.1.5 under Content/System updates.
i say we look forward to 4/7 an see what "Blue talk" is if they say nothing there. then i think its safe to say No new spec.


TLDR Copium

Sooo a paladin dps? Because this is how new retri feel.

Also, nobody would take support, why have spot with subpar healing/taking/dps? Like, by design.
Encounter balance would either need to accomodate supports (which would lower overall mathematicall difficulty) or not, which would make them even less desirable.

The only way they could work is in non scripted enviroment - like pvp - or by giving them so great buffs/debuffs than they become mandatory.

[Ielenia]

Except I do believe Bards are coming. However they're ETC-style bards, not DnD-style Bards. As for Necromancers, I believe they're already in the game via Death Knights.

Please don't pretend to be obtuse, you know exactly what I am talking about, Teriz. You know exactly, but you're playing dumb.

Incorrect. Evokers were created thousands of years ago, and their specs date back to that time, long before the Horde and Alliance came around. Which is why there's only edicts for three Weryns, and Neltharion only mentions three weryns.

We have five weyrn, since the beginning:

Please explain how a damage buff wouldn't increase the damage of a damage spec.

Bait-and-switch fallacy. You said that a tank's survivability wouldn't be as affected as a DPS's or healer's, which is objectively wrong. I literally explained to you how the tanks are the highest risk of dying on a mispressed button.

[Triceron]

No, the debuff is doing that. The debuff increases the damage dealt by both the tank and the other players.

That doesn't sound too different when Ferals could apply Mangle that boosted Melee DPS damage, TBH. Not sure if that is what Blizzard is really planning

[Teriz]

Please don't pretend to be obtuse, you know exactly what I am talking about, Teriz. You know exactly, but you're playing dumb.

People are more than welcome to read that recent Bard thread. I made it quite clear that I supported the notion of an ETC Bard.

We have five weyrn, since the beginning:

Then why didn't Neltharion didn't mention Azurathel or Cinderthresh?

Bait-and-switch fallacy. You said that a tank's survivability wouldn't be as affected as a DPS's or healer's, which is objectively wrong. I literally explained to you how the tanks are the highest risk of dying on a mispressed button.

Again, explain how a damage buff wouldn't increase the damage of a damage spec.

Also FYI, the tank spec that deals the most damage isn't always the best tank.

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That doesn't sound too different when Ferals could apply Mangle that boosted Melee DPS damage, TBH. Not sure if that is what Blizzard is really planning

It isn't. That's just another example of how a debuff can work within a tank spec.

And who knows? Maybe Blizzard isn't planning to do a tank spec. However if they're not, I would be quite interested to see how they implement Amplification and Debuffing into a DPS or Healing spec.

I'd love to see a new dual-role spec.

[Triceron]

And who knows? Maybe Blizzard isn't planning to do a tank spec. However if they're not, I would be quite interested to see how they implement Amplification and Debuffing into a DPS or Healing spec.

That's pretty much what I've been saying. It could be any role.

[Teriz]

That's pretty much what I've been saying. It could be any role.

Same here. I've simply said that tanking is more likely and makes more sense.

Of course that doesn't mean that Blizzard will do the most sensible and logical route.

[Eeram]

Sooo a paladin dps? Because this is how new retri feel.

Also, nobody would take support, why have spot with subpar healing/taking/dps? Like, by design.
Encounter balance would either need to accomodate supports (which would lower overall mathematicall difficulty) or not, which would make them even less desirable.

The only way they could work is in non scripted enviroment - like pvp - or by giving them so great buffs/debuffs than they become mandatory.

So my thought process here is that it would be tank/heals because it would be debuffing the enemys with its attacks while providing shields an mitigation to allies. So the reason you would bring this is because 1 people should bring what they want. but i understand there will always be a "META" an with that its the same reason you dont bring specfic healers for things like M+ weeks an things along those lines. just because they bring less support an less competitive tanking doesn t mean they would like in bringing more dps for the group or more sustain for the group

[Xath]

That's the point of the statement.

Adding more tank options doesn't change anything, regardless of how people feel about adding new tank specs to their favourite class or adding new tank classes in general.

You are right, the problem is the meta, and the meta isn't solved by throwing more tank options in the game.

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It's the nature of online forums. Anonymity, freedom to express opinion, no accountability, no filter. It's the perfect place to express the inner asshole.

It literally does though lol? If Evokers can tank and are a meta dps there will be more tank available for 5 mans. A lot like our Warriors and DKs who are dps mains and are incredibly good tank for their weekly 20s. If you suddenly give some more ranged dps specs a tanking spec it would help a lot.

[Triceron]

It literally does though lol? If Evokers can tank and are a meta dps there will be more tank available for 5 mans. A lot like our Warriors and DKs who are dps mains and are incredibly good tank for their weekly 20s. If you suddenly give some more ranged dps specs a tanking spec it would help a lot.

It would help but not a lot.

It would actually be like the heavy influx of DK tanks at the start of Wrath, and smoothing out down to the same percentages of tanks that we had since vanilla. What ends up happening is main tank players tend to swap mains, and the class distribution might get smoothed out a bit, but the overall percentage of tank players remains quite low. If it were really a significant enough boost, then the past 3 new classes (sans Evoker) should have at least moved that needle towards more tanks on average. And truth is, it hasn't really, and we still see pretty low tank participation overall, even though every new class we got in an expansion (sans Evoker) had tanking options.

[Aliven]

What about a dual-role spec like old feral where one spec houses two roles?

Havent they still needed to spec into being tank or dps? I recall they did.

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So my thought process here is that it would be tank/heals because it would be debuffing the enemys with its attacks while providing shields an mitigation to allies. So the reason you would bring this is because 1 people should bring what they want. but i understand there will always be a "META" an with that its the same reason you dont bring specfic healers for things like M+ weeks an things along those lines. just because they bring less support an less competitive tanking doesn t mean they would like in bringing more dps for the group or more sustain for the group

It isnt about meta, it is about balancing. If he is too weak, then why bring him? He isnt proper healer and not a proper tank. If he is too strong then he becomes meta and not picking him is gimping group.

I need to ask - how, in your idea, they would differ from standard tanks/healers/dps? Because we have tank which can bring dps/heals, dps which can bring heals and healers which can do dmg.

Paladin has this role, tank/dps with some heals throw here and there, some buff for players like immunity from physicall dmg etc.

[Ielenia]

People are more than welcome to read that recent Bard thread. I made it quite clear that I supported the notion of an ETC Bard.

And considering no one but you use the ETC, and everyone who want an actual necromancer class recognize the obvious fact that the death knight is not the necromancer class, just like the paladin isn't the priest class, then what I said stand: you don't want to see those classes in the game.

Then why didn't Neltharion didn't mention Azurathel or Cinderthresh?

"Obsidian Warders

This weyrn is charged with defending the allies of the black dragonflight and protecting its strongholds.
Whether it is deployed to reinforce draconic legions or guard the skies alongside dragons, this weyrn is the embodiment of the Earth-Warder's aegis.
Currently under the authority of Scalecommander Azurathel, the Warders shall train to be the bulwark that enemy forces will break upon."

"Dark Talons

Where the enemies of the Earth-Warder tread, the Dark Talons shall harrow their skies, crush their will, and topple their leaders.
Deny our enemies solace in walls and borders. For every talon in our ranks, you shall strike down ten of our foes from behind.
This weyrn, currently under the authority of Scalecommander Cindrethresh, shall train to be the elite force that shall be feared by all enemies of the black dragonflight."

Both are found within the dracthyr starting zone. Proof that those weyrns existed since the beginning.

Again, explain how a damage buff wouldn't increase the damage of a damage spec.

I don't have to answer what is obviously and clearly a bait-and-switch fallacy.

Also FYI, the tank spec that deals the most damage isn't always the best tank.

Irrelevant, as "tank damage" has never been my argument. Try again.

[Teriz]

And considering no one but you use the ETC, and everyone who want an actual necromancer class recognize the obvious fact that the death knight is not the necromancer class, just like the paladin isn't the priest class, then what I said stand: you don't want to see those classes in the game.

Just because I like the ETC-Bard doesn't mean that I don't want a Bard class. I simply want an ETC-based bard class.

Both are found within the dracthyr starting zone. Proof that those weyrns existed since the beginning.

You didn't answer my question; Why did Neltharion not mention Cindrethresh or Azurathel in those voice lines? He only mentions THREE, not FIVE;

You three shall be the examples all Dracthyr will follow.
Sarkareth, my devastator, you shall rend your foes with the powers of the Red and Blue Dragonflight.
Viridia, my preserver, you shall heal our allies with the graces of Green and Bronze Dragonflights.
And Emberthal, you will wield the essence of the Black Dragonflight to augment all those around you with my power.
By my command, kneel and obey.

https://www.wowhead.com/news/third-e...e-lines-332224

The other point is that we have two sources stating that the abilities of Emberthal and their Weryn were augmentation/amplification and weakening the power of enemies.

I don't have to answer what is obviously and clearly a bait-and-switch fallacy.

Well then I'll answer for you; A damage buff would obviously benefit a DPS far more than a tank. A buff that increases healing output or INT would benefit a healer more than a tank. The idea that buffs would defacto benefit tanks more than the other roles regardless of what the buffs are is pure nonsense.

[Segus1992]

Cutting through all the fluff

You mean ignoring the part where I point out that you know nothing about the game? Retribution Aura and Mystic Touch being arguments for a buffer/debuffer tank being the most likely, jesus christ. Maybe if you spent more time playing the game and less time spamming on this forum your predictions would actually make sense.

[lanerios]

Just because I like the ETC-Bard doesn't mean that I don't want a Bard class. I simply want an ETC-based bard class.



You didn't answer my question; Why did Neltharion not mention Cindrethresh or Azurathel in those voice lines? He only mentions THREE, not FIVE;



https://www.wowhead.com/news/third-e...e-lines-332224

The other point is that we have two sources stating that the abilities of Emberthal and their Weryn were augmentation/amplification and weakening the power of enemies.



Well then I'll answer for you; A damage buff would obviously benefit a DPS far more than a tank. A buff that increases healing output or INT would benefit a healer more than a tank. The idea that buffs would defacto benefit tanks more than the other roles regardless of what the buffs are is pure nonsense.

And here is the whole situation explained.

You really need to learn that there's a huge difference between what you want and what is plausible. There is a huge difference. It's more and more clear you use mental gymnastics to keep your personal preferences realistic, ignoring or waving away any logic that goes against your wishes.

It would show some personality, some class if you for once admit that others might be right, and that you might be wrong. And that nobody (including you) knows for sure.

[Segus1992]

It would show some personality, some class if you for once admit that others might be right, and that you might be wrong. And that nobody (including you) knows for sure.

But what if he's RIGHT and it HAPPENS even though EVERYONE else didn't believe it, that'd be SO COOL!

Instead he just says shit like this to say that if he ends up being wrong it's Blizzard who was wrong all along.

Same here. I've simply said that tanking is more likely and makes more sense.

Of course that doesn't mean that Blizzard will do the most sensible and logical route.