[Megathread] Star Citizen

[Kyanion]

Yeah idk, there is a lot of stuff to shit on in this project, but viewbotting on twitch for cool stats is really a step to close in the direction of tinfoil-hat worthy conspiracies.

I mean there was the Trials of Ascension 'forums' many years ago where the people involved in that business faked their forums with massive amounts of fake accounts all being positive and having fake discussions with each other. That shit was crazy as fuck to watch as people figured it out in real time and watched the 'devs' scramble to change the forums.

I don't put much past companies that are trying to use crowdfunding/donations as a way to keep their business going, is it a bit tinfoilish for potential shady activity on Twitch with Star Citizen? Prolly, but again I wouldn't be shocked if they did do such a thing.

[Calfredd]

I mean there was the Trials of Ascension 'forums' many years ago where the people involved in that business faked their forums with massive amounts of fake accounts all being positive and having fake discussions with each other. That shit was crazy as fuck to watch as people figured it out in real time and watched the 'devs' scramble to change the forums.

I don't put much past companies that are trying to use crowdfunding/donations as a way to keep their business going, is it a bit tinfoilish for potential shady activity on Twitch with Star Citizen? Prolly, but again I wouldn't be shocked if they did do such a thing.

Reminds me of the thread we had of Trials of Ascension.

[Cloverfield]

Yes, based on some searching CIG partnered with Redbull for this.

...

And? That's a standard partnership, they work with Redbull who in turn work with their creators. Bog-standard shit companies do all the time. It was a partnership, not sold as "organic" because it wasn't. Redbull produced the video which should make that clear.

It was definitely sold as organic at the time. And the community believed/saw it as such. As mentioned, and as starters, CIG never disclosed an agreement with Rexzilla or an agreement with Redbul to hire Rexzilla for that matter.

It is indeed standard to have multiple partnerships AND disclose it. CIG just did not, and all info regarding Rexilla at the time points to everyone believing the lie of it being totally organic. There was an interesting classic post by someone refuting similar accusations at the time and expressing how "organic" it all was, a hilarious and intense meltdown. Will see if I can fetch it, as it gives a very good idea of how much the community believed it to be totally organic.

[Edge-]

It was definitely sold as organic at the time. And the community believed/saw it as such. As mentioned, and as starters, CIG never disclosed an agreement with Rexzilla or an agreement with Redbul to hire Rexzilla for that matter.

It is indeed standard to have multiple partnerships AND disclose it. CIG just did not, and all info regarding Rexilla at the time points to everyone believing the lie of it being totally organic. There was an interesting classic post by someone refuting similar accusations at the time and expressing how "organic" all was, hilarious and intense meltdown. Will see if I can fetch it, as it gives a very good idea of how much the community believed it to be totally organic.

What do you mean by "organic" here? As in just out of nowhere or unpaid? Because the former is incorrect but the latter is correct. I'm not sure how anyone could think CIG had no involvement in the process given that

A) They're literally in the bloody video talking about the game so clearly they were involved
B) It was followed up by races released in-game

CIG doesn't need to disclose any agreements in this. Redbull made a video, they worked with CIG on it, I'm not sure what "agreements" you want them to disclose as no company discloses details of collaborations like this?

You're holding CIG to standards literally no company is held to when it comes to things like this. This is all bog-standard, perfectly legal, absolutely above board shit. You just honestly seem desperate to find nefarious dealings in everything CIG related. I get it, you don't trust them. I don't have a huge amount of trust/confidence in them either. But this is just silly, there are, again, so many reasons to be critical and skeptical of CIG/Star Citizen/SQ42 and it weirds me out people go reaching for things like this rather than the mountain of other salient topics.

[Cloverfield]

I'm not sure how anyone could think CIG had no involvement in the process given that

[Edge-]

...and? They didn't hire him and I'm not sure what you think this means beyond that.

[Cloverfield]

...and? They didn't hire him and I'm not sure what you think this means beyond that.

I mean you said you are not sure how anyone could think CIG had no involvement in the process etc. And I would agree with you. But here we see CIG doubling down in denying any participation in the deal though, be it with with Rexzilla, Redbull or anyone. A bit of ethics would suggest you clarify the three party agreement, if any, but they didn´t.


Ah, got it. Here is the text I referred to as example of how "organic" everything was perceived at the time. The reddit author authorized the recipient to disclose it. Just an exemple, but it shows how strongly the "organic" view (grass roots, no dealing with CIG at all, from the community for the community etc etc etc) Rexzilla was sold:

Jade Starwatcher posted:
So i had never heard of you or the forum you post on until someone sent me a link where you were talking about me. Then i saw you have become fascinated by the rise of Rexzilla "seemingly out of nowhere." and the Alex Jones-esque conspiracy theories of him being a paid marketer by CIG's due to an investment in marketing Squadron 42.....

It's almost funny how wrong you have it.

Here are the main reasons:

First of all Rexzilla isn't new to Star Citizen, he backed the game around the same time i did back in 2016 and was a member of an org called Aces High (ACESHI). I know this because my previous org (which i co-founded) used to fight them at Security Post Kareah. So he isn't new, he played the game in 2016 and 2017 but didnt stream it and took a break from it because peformance was poor and all we had were a few on foot PvP areas. He's not a pilot, the FPS aspect of the game appealed to him.

He like me never played any of Chris Roberts old games. i was born in 1995. You should not hold this against me or anyone else who didn't know who Chris Roberts was until they discovered Star Citizen. There are a lot of us and we are a fast growing part of the Star Citizen community.

There is growing new guard due to a perfect storm. The game being playable due to client-side OCS and new game features and environments has brought in a lot of new people. In my case i only became a backer after a woman told me in a Second Life group voice chat that procedural planets were going to be a thing (she sent me a link to the Homestead Demo) and that playable female characters were coming soon with both likely to make an appearance in 3.0 (i know right!?). Knowing nothing of the delays SC has had i enthusiastically pledged in Dec 2016 for an Aurora starter package. Today we have OCS, FPS AI (derpy as it is, its something), 2 landable planets, 9 landable moons and landable planetoid with ourposts, stations even cities with trains and stuff. And i finally get to play with a character which represents me making it all finally immesive. This probably doesn't surprise you but friends i have who are also female and game have held off until they could play with a female character.

Some older streamers and backers see any change as scary and this influx of newer, often younger backers is disruptive to what the Star Citizen community has traditionally been since the Kickstarter.

The reason Rexzilla gets the huge audience he does are because he offers something none of the old guard offered:

a) A positive attitude taking advantage of the sandbox, sci-fi space sim we have today rather than theorycrafting and wishing for what we might have in the future.

So many of the Star Citizen streamers fall into a "negative nancy" mode. i totally get why they're like this, because for most of their streaming life there was no playable game. Old habits die hard and now that there is one its hard for them to break out of this. Instead of taking Chris Roberts seriously when he has repeatedly stated Star Citizen would be a sort of Space Second Life, they spend time talking about delays on gameplay mechanics even though we have cargo and mining.

b) Accessibility. Most of the older Star Citizen streamers have had an air about them of "I'm the streamer, you watch me but that's it." In other words, they kept a wall between themselves and people who might want to join in with what they're doing. Rexzilla has taken the opposite approach, he welcomes everyone to play with him and have epic experiences as a group. i am part of ZDF as well as my own org and i can tell you, we're not actors. We do some light roleplay but we're all there to have a good time. Part of that is following instructions but you have that in any org. My org did the same type of ops on a regular basis, we didn't stream them but they do require willing participants, clear comms and clear leadership. Its the same in the ZDF. Whether we are part of the ground forces or support and combat pilots (those ships you see on his streams are often there to protect the op against stream snipers, i know because i took one down in my Glaive).

c) Personality. Sorry but many of the older guard remind me of my dad trying to play games in the way they interact with the audience. Its boring, even when they are doing something midly interesting because they just don't have the energy or hype level Rex does.

Fear of the new leads to salt. You've seen it and commented on it with reactions to Rex's rise. i've seen it personally on a much smaller level as some people who are fans of TheBase radio station have attacked The Peoples Radio (TPR), the immersive, Star Citizen station i started. Older backers have thrown shade at us even though we're doing something quite different than TheBase in terms of content and our target demographics (newer and younger backers and a more diverse audience in general). This some of this low level salt among older fans of TheBase goes on even though Juntau from TheBase and i get along great and respect each other. In fact he recently had some very nice things to say about us and our quick rise on The Captain's Table. CIG loves our weekly news program (we've been the Staff Pick in the Community Hub on CIG's site and they and even made me an MVP for it one week. Again, it's because we use the game to make immersive content now. Everything is content to us, een bugs. It's that kind of positive attitude the community has responded to both with us and Rexzilla (who gives us shoutouts from time to time).

ZDF as an org is bigger than Rexzilla. It's not just an org, its a movement. The ZDF does a lot of stuff on and off stream not involving Rexzilla. This ranges from Star Marine tournaments to participating in the 50 person pub craw i organized in Star Citizen. Most large orgs with charasmatic leaders would not have responded the way ZDF did when i put the idea out there seeking both security and participants. (i know this having interacted with them in the past). Rexzilla was reachable and their support of the event helped ensure it was success but they were one of like 5 smaller orgs who all contributed to that. We managed to fill a server with people all involved in the event on a day servers were going down left and right due to 30K errors related to an FPS AI mission. Wakapedia from CIG even came in at the end of the pub crawl and let us all in the Million Mile High Club in Area 18 making for more great content both on the stream and for TPR News.

So i guess what i'm saying is this is all organic growth of the game and a demographic change. i had a good conversation the other day on Discord with another content creator when this very subject came up. i asked her what she thought would happen as people who like and play Fortnite now start coming over to playing Star Citizen and she nearly spit her coffee out both because she knows its inevitable and the reaction will be a culture shock not unlike what you're seeing happening now with the emergence of Rex and the ZDF.

A game like this can not be successful based on old money and old salt alone. Too many older backers and streamers are jaded and what Rex has proven is that almost no one wants to watch endless negativity of what is missing from the game when the alternative is watching and/or participating in some epic, community created sandbox gameplay with the amazing locales, weapons and ships CIG has created.

PS: Yes i did buy $10K worth of ships during the height of the cryptocurrency boom the same amount of crypto i used back then is worth about $1500 today. The same foresight that helped me see that Ethereum would be something worth mining and holding on to at the end of 2015 (when it was $0.40 cents and helped me pursuade my boyfriend to start mining and trading before we sold when it went above $1,000 is the same foresight i've used in seeing the long view of this game's development.

Doing the former paid of my student loans. Doing the later will pay off in many years of fun. In some ways, it already has.

i hope this clears things up. i am fairly certain that what we are witnessing isn't some co-ordinated marketing campaign. it's the result of years of game development and an influx of new blood.

if you want, feel free to share this in its entirety.

And 1 year after his arrival, almost on the dot, as suddenly and "organically" as he rose, Rexzilla was gone.

[Koriani]

All this over Twitch stats that effectively mean fuck all... who actually cares, beyond people that need to try and use them to prop SC up?

Twitch stats only posted (stated ''reason' anyway) to try and prove why CiG isn't ripping people off to the same level as EA.

At least I think that was the point, that's how he started both those posts, anyway - in response to the poster commenting how CIG was competing with EA in ripping people off.

[banmebaby]

Twitch stats only posted (stated ''reason' anyway) to try and prove why CiG isn't ripping people off to the same level as EA.

Nha, the same Twitch stats keep being shared every few months, it's a soft brag about how many viewers it has on twitch...

Its why its always compared to just other "space games", including single player indie titles released a decade ago, such as Faster Than Light, because if you compare it to most other MMOs or "Live Services" it just doesn't look as good ;P

[MrAnderson]

Not wanting to defend the debatably ethical business practises of cig, but that was absolutely not the point of Anderson here. He was just trying to argue that the high amount of views that sc gets on twitch can't be only explained by "people are keen to watch failures" when there is, as you said, much better games pulling way bigger numbers.

Yeah it's impressive how blind people get when they've made a mission of hating something.

Twitch stats are as valid as many other stats to check engagement/popularity of games communities, one just has to learn how to read them.

https://sullygnome.com/ has all the tools to check the stats, for all years and compare games you wish.

The charts I posted are not "random games" put together or from limited timespan, but a year of data (365 days).

They are combined in genre/style. I posted "Space/Sci-Fi Online Games", where Star Citizen included with the most similar (and other not so much) games that involve around sci-fi/flying space ships in a online setting. Then the MMO group of games (WoW, FFXIV, NewWorld etc) and the MOBA (LoL,Dota,etc) group of games, and they could be made for BattleRoyal's, Competitive FPS, Sport Games, and so on. They allow to check how games of similar gameplay/style perform.
And most certain than not the stats of most popular games of each genre will usually also be top in the charts of Twitch, which makes perfect sense.
Now this is not linear because Twitch caters mostly to PC games with lot of action PVP/Competitive games and/or online interaction/RP.

Which might explain why Star Citizen, despite it's Alpha nature, can surpass similar games of it's genre (No Man Sky and Elite: Dangerous) as they lack the PVP/Online interaction and controversy aspect. That probably and because it has a bigger constant flow of updates, No Man Sky has higher peaks than Star Citizen (because there's more people playing it

cant live my han solo experience if the ship i want still isnt in the game after years

The Mercury Star Runner has been flyable for some time now, it's the closest to the Millennium Falcon and "Han Solo experience" you'll get in the Star Citizen universe I think. Which makes me curious to know which ship are you waiting for?

This is exactly what I´m talking about, you dont know that. Its your Opinion based on your Observation. I mean, you are entitled to it, and if it makes you happy good for you.
I like my Neutral Opinion, if it gets finnished, it gets finished, if its crap then, its crap then. If it never releases, it never releases. Doesnt really affect me much. If it does, I have a game to play. If not, I´m going to play something different.
I can see reason why people fanaticly defend CIG. But honestly, I cant wrap my head around why people so fanaticly talk shit about it.
Whatever CIG does, doesnt affect people who dont think SC will ever be good/released at all.

You'll be surprised to know that there's a whole culture of very bitter and jaded folks that have invested several years of their life trying to cancel CIG/Star Citizen while preaching it's demise to the seven kingdoms only to see the company grow and the game's popularity increase year after year. They've dug a deep trench of belief that the game has no qualities, that nobody plays it and that only the whales keeping the company afloat. Which is why you get all kind of conspiracies theories

Yeah idk, there is a lot of stuff to shit on in this project, but viewbotting on twitch for cool stats is really a step to close in the direction of tinfoil-hat worthy conspiracies.

It's only natural to see them dismiss stats that sink their FUD theories and turn to conspiracy theories about viewboting and whatnot. Funny stuff cause there's new material every year.

My prediction is [...] some other game company that doesn't have it's head up it's ass is going to build something that does 90% of what Star Citizen is "supposed" to do [...]

That's a good question isn't it? Why hasn't some other company done it yet?

It's only been 10 years since Star Citizen was announced and god knows there's bigger gaming studios out there with way more experience, developers and deeper pockets than CIG will ever have. My 2 cents is that it's realy hard, time consuming and costly to do and since it's a mostly seen as a niche market game seen as very risky endeavour for low gain. See EA profits in billions post before.

* I am astounded this thread is still full of people that think anything playable will come of this. Move on folks.

I am astounded that you've missed this great video that completely contradicts that statement


New 3.19 patch testing ongoing.

[Kyanion]

Yeah it's impressive how blind people get when they've made a mission of hating something.

Yeah it's impressive how blind people get when they've made a mission of defending something.

- - - Updated - - -

You'll be surprised to know that there's a whole culture of very bitter and jaded folks that have invested several years of their life trying to cancel CIG/Star Citizen while preaching it's demise to the seven kingdoms only to see the company grow and the game's popularity increase year after year. They've dug a deep trench of belief that the game has no qualities, that nobody plays it and that only the whales keeping the company afloat. Which is why you get all kind of conspiracies theories

Almost as many as the sheer amount of crazed fanatical defenders that excuse every pothole CIG drives into. Lying about release dates, wasting of money, ships that are sold and not delivered. It's really fucking weird isn't it?

[Cloverfield]

Nha, the same Twitch stats keep being shared every few months, it's a soft brag about how many viewers it has on twitch...

Its why its always compared to just other "space games", including single player indie titles released a decade ago, such as Faster Than Light, because if you compare it to most other MMOs or "Live Services" it just doesn't look as good ;P

Twitch stats can indeed be valid, especially when included as part of a wider context of other solidly documented metrics. Such as actual player concurrency figures, total units sold info in official annual fully audited financial reports, quality of the game as scored/described by aggregated widespread reviews and the like.

Otherwise, Twitch stats are very easily manipulated. Much more than, say, STEAM concurrency figures for example. Especially by companies with a track record of poor ethics stance and long standing list of misrepresentations (or even straight lies) about their products, such as CIG.

CIG has never (over 10+ years) offered clear cut data on a metric as basic and fundamental as player concurrency, likely because they are fully aware it does not compare well with other space games in the niche, never mind main streams games. They have not even offered an unaudited explicit concurrency figure of their own, much less make it subject to a 3rd party control such a Steam etc. CIG has offered unaudited figures on time played and the like from which we can estimate concurrency but the results have always showed disappointing numbers compared to other games such as Elite, No Mans Sky or even Space Engineers.

Twitch or Youtube stats on the other hand are much more easily manipulated (paid for streamers, view bots etc) and can be used to show numbers that are completly out of whack compared to the game quality or units sold, as is the case in SC. Given CIG's track record I have little doubts they are exploiting it to the fullest.

[Yriel]

Twitch stats on the other hand are much more easily manipulated (paid for streamers, view bots etc) and can be used to show numbers that are completly out of whack compared to the game quality or units sold, as is the case in SC.

Plus twitch stats are often influenced by a small number of streamers with a high viewership that watch them no matter what game they play. Gifting them a few shiny ships now and then costs CIG nothing and gets them very high viewership numbers for a few days. That doesn't mean that all the viewers are interested in Star Citizen or whatever they play, they are interested in XQC, Sodapoppin or Lirik.

[Resheph]

I am astounded that you've missed this great video that completely contradicts that statement


New 3.19 patch testing ongoing.

Literally NOTHING in that video has anything to do with the game I kickstarted...

With playable I mean the game I was promised, obviously. Not a toally different genre which is not what was promised or paid for.

[MrAnderson]

Yeah it's impressive how blind people get when they've made a mission of defending something.

Posting about a game one enjoys and play daily in it's thread is not the same as ranting like a old man yelling at clouds about a game one never played or has any actual gaming interested in now isn't it? Try that shit in any other game thread and people would also be question the sanity of such hobbie.

Almost as many as the sheer amount of crazed fanatical defenders that excuse every pothole CIG drives into. Lying about release dates, wasting of money, ships that are sold and not delivered. It's really fucking weird isn't it?

Imagine being angry for life with all the games who've had changed released dates, cut content or teased features that ended up not being in the released version. Somehow that makes all that bitterness understandable. Just strange to have it channelled with such vigour to a game one doesn't even play.

[Wyer]

I pledged wanting a new "Wing Commander" what I see before me now is not what I pledged in hope to get.
Glad my ex wife never found out how much I threw into this...

[Ausr]

Literally NOTHING in that video has anything to do with the game I kickstarted...

With playable I mean the game I was promised, obviously. Not a toally different genre which is not what was promised or paid for.

If I'm going to play a FPS shooter, Star Citizen is the last one I'm choosing. Why would I play against like 3 of the 47 people on the server when I can go play Planetside 2 or Battlefield and get a much bigger, better experience?

[Yriel]

I pledged wanting a new "Wing Commander" what I see before me now is not what I pledged in hope to get.
Glad my ex wife never found out how much I threw into this...

True, when i pledged it was billed as a new Wing Commander with some online component afterwards that you can continue to play in for some time.
I would have never spent money on "Second Life in Space" (as this quoted Jade Starwatcher calls it).

[banmebaby]

Ah yes, because being unable to criticize anything about a video game, making shit up and insulting others for the sake of its company, really screams out "sanity" to most people

[Koriani]

True, when i pledged it was billed as a new Wing Commander with some online component afterwards that you can continue to play in for some time.
I would have never spent money on "Second Life in Space" (as this quoted Jade Starwatcher calls it).

As someone who has been active in Second Life for 15 years, I can solidly say - this is *nothing* equivalent to a "Second Life in Space." That's insulting to Second Life! =D Nothing about Star Citizen is similar to Second Life.

First, we'd have to be watching ONLY player-created ships, weapons, armor, gear, etc. in the fight. Second Life Content is all user created, not Linden Lab created.