Writers Strike & AI

[Ihavewaffles]

And if you think markets are saturated with bullshit art and writing now, just wait until non-writers and non-artists start producing it in volume. Hell, just look at art station and the thoughtless drek AI art that's been spewed over it. The only thing moving faster than AI art development is how rapidly stale it's become.

...and that's removing the notion that all of these models steal and generally misappropriate things to form a profit model without a cent given to the people whose work was used to train it.

Hold up! You can't compare to ai art, because we got so many who create beautiful art...art hasn't fallen of a cliff like hollywood "writing"..

Yeah, saw artstation a few days back, it's ruined...a real shame since it was so much better than deviantart which is the biggest cesspool...but it was crap before ai..

I have a lot more sympathy to artists than most 'writers'...

[Ivanstone]

Sequel trilogy, the movies

Missing the point. You think they set out to make a shitty movie? No.

More importantly you think Abrams got poorly paid for this? No. He made a lot of money. All the writers that have to do the fine tuning at his direction? Not so much. That's what we're actually talking about here. All the showrunners out there are probably doing fine. Its largely their responsibility whether or show turns out well. The underpaid writer on the other hand? Not so much. As per usual your blaming the wrong people.

Here's a good example of a showrunner treating their writers like shit. I have no idea if any of these shows are any good but it gives a nice snap shot of the life of a writer.

[Fencers]

Almost every showrunner is also a writer. FYI.

It would be the exception that a showrunner is not the series creator and principal writer. This is partly why Gilroy paused Andor or why WBD had to send out letters to writers that also filled the role of "showrunner"- which isn't really a job in many cases, but a title or responsibility slate.

[Kaleredar]

This is mostly about TV and the WGA has got to realise the 'Goose' that generated the big profits is GONE. No ads, no big profits. No big profits, much less to share unless you go after a pieces of the pie that you had no direct participation in creating. And it sounds like that is exactly what they're doing.

The other thing I am getting is the implication that they are trying to save jobs that simply no longer supportable due to a decline in demand for what the industry makes and the decline in revenues from the slow death of linear TV. There was a hell of a lot less risk back when we only had the big 3. Dem days are gone.

They’re producing the content for the streaming services. That is the revenue stream. And said services fight tooth and nail to keep people in the dark about how successful (read, directly contributing to the value of the service) shows are in part to keep writers from knowing how much their role as a writer on a certain slow is. All to pay people less than they’re worth.

[Ivanstone]

Almost every showrunner is also a writer. FYI.

It would be the exception that a showrunner is not the series creator and principal writer. This is partly why Gilroy paused Andor or why WBD had to send out letters to writers that also filled the role of "showrunner"- which isn't really a job in many cases, but a title or responsibility slate.

Yeah but I doubt those taking on those responsibilities are being poorly treated. At least they're getting better treatment then those taking on the smaller jobs which are still necessary.

[Fencers]

Yeah but I doubt those taking on those responsibilities are being poorly treated. At least they're getting better treatment then those taking on the smaller jobs which are still necessary.

There is always a bigger fish, my brother.

[Zenfoldor]

To me, it's kinda like work from home.

So, fast food workers and most healthcare workers can't work from home very well, but IT workers can.

Now let's say all the healthcare and fastfood workers went on strike and unreasonably demanded the right to work from home.

Are the IT workers who are currently working from home hypocritical for opposing this shortsighted plan? Why should IT workers be provided this right but healthcare workers denied it?

Okay, so that is what it is LIKE, but here is what it is.

When I'm an IT worker and I write code, that code belongs to the company I work for. I do not get to decide how it is used, nor do I get to get paid a percentage of the project or even residuals. Furthremore, AI is ALREADY writing code and replacing me on the job.

Why, then, should writers get residuals, or have ownership in anything they write "on the job?"

Is it simply because entertainment is a public facing job, and therefore, public facing jobs naturally have more bargaining power? Is that fair to the coders though?

I guess my truth is, none of it is fair, and we are all just out here trying to grab what we can before the next shoe drops.

[Soulwind]

To me, it's kinda like work from home.

So, fast food workers and most healthcare workers can't work from home very well, but IT workers can.

Now let's say all the healthcare and fastfood workers went on strike and unreasonably demanded the right to work from home.

Are the IT workers who are currently working from home hypocritical for opposing this shortsighted plan? Why should IT workers be provided this right but healthcare workers denied it?

Okay, so that is what it is LIKE, but here is what it is.

When I'm an IT worker and I write code, that code belongs to the company I work for. I do not get to decide how it is used, nor do I get to get paid a percentage of the project or even residuals. Furthremore, AI is ALREADY writing code and replacing me on the job.

Why, then, should writers get residuals, or have ownership in anything they write "on the job?"

Is it simply because entertainment is a public facing job, and therefore, public facing jobs naturally have more bargaining power? Is that fair to the coders though?

I guess my truth is, none of it is fair, and we are all just out here trying to grab what we can before the next shoe drops.

IT, healthcare, fastfood, are all functional workers. As long as what they do works, they're as good as anyone else. Sure, one can be more experienced, faster or more intuitive than the others, but ultimately all they have to do is complete their tasks.

Writers are artists, which means most (hopefully all) of them could successfully write the same story that goes from A to B. But how each of them would write that story is what matters. Style, nuance, symbolism, that's what they provide, not words.

So when the audience perceives a lack of quality in the writing while the writers complain that they are being used and thrown away by producers who don't care about good stories, and see writing as a mere functional task that anyone could fulfill, including an AI; said audience should side with the writers.

Scripts aren't getting worse because an elite of lazy unionized writers don't want to do their job, they're getting worse because everyone and their dog are getting hired to draft, adapt, write and rewrite for the lowest price in the shortest amount of time. AI would take this a step further and remove any professional and emotional input from the script.

VFX studios are having a similar problem in that poor management on the studios side is resulting in movies releasing with rushed CGI, with audiences pointing fingers at the VFX artists instead.

I'd say it's missing the forest for the trees, but it's not really that difficult to see whose at fault here.

[Logwyn]

It’s almost like there were things called newspapers and magazines that did these things for us. You think a show like MASH got the viewership it did from word of mouth?

Everything is over produced. There’s lots of terrific material being made right now but not there’s not enough of it to cover the dozens of different streamers out there. The dopes who run the streaming services thought they had unlimited money because everyone would continue to buy all the services regardless of how fractured things got.

Turns out most people are like me. I buy once service at a time (currently Apple, ending it soon). The only exception is Prime. My comic shop pays for my Prime account because it does other useful things besides giving me The Boys.

Shows in the 70s really got viewers because you had what 7 to 8 channels on TV you could get one of which was PBS. Not a good deal of choices might as well watch something. Not that I am saying that MASH was bad but choices were few.

- - - Updated - - -

Their demands aren't unreasonable. They don't get paid AT ALL for the shows they wrote that end up in syndication on streaming services. If you wrote for any sitcom that ends up on Netflix, you see ZERO dollars from Netflix.

Secondly, this AI nonsense has to stop. Just like you can tell an AI picture from a real picture, you can tell AI writing from actual writing. It is stilted, formulaic, and just plain bad. The people pushing AI to replace Hollywood writers aren't writers, they're dumb AI nerds who think they're changing the world somehow. These are the same dumb nerds who thought NFTs were going to change the world.

Don't forget though when it comes to ART... for every Picasso you have 4 or 5 artists that are nailing a banana to a wall and calling it art.

[Witchblade77]

gotta love not only terrible examples (it makes no sense for fast food workers to ask for work from home, but that is NOT an actual equivalent of what writers are asking for either - this would be like fast food workers asking for safe working conditions, steady schedules and living wage - which is 100% reasonable, but strawmen arguments are more fun amirite?),

but also the attitude of

I'm being fucked over by AI, so let them be fucked over too

instead of

maybe.. just maybe, we have fight in common here and could accomplish something to both our benefit if we, I don't know... WORKED TOGETHER AND SUPPORTED EACH OTHER???

just a thought

quite a few artists were not valued while alive, the banana argument is another strawman so obvious, you are not even trying here dude, and for every picasso there are concept artists, cover artists and a good number of other art and design professionals whose names you don't even know, but without whom - you would be living within gray squares, buying gray square packages, riding inside gray square uncomfortable boxes, etc etc.

[Ivanstone]

Shows in the 70s really got viewers because you had what 7 to 8 channels on TV you could get one of which was PBS. Not a good deal of choices might as well watch something. Not that I am saying that MASH was bad but choices were few.

You certainly had much less choice back then but a hit show had actual longevity because there were other things supporting it. This was back in a time when you had to schedule your life around the shows you liked. I remember not wanting to do other things on Thursday night and sat there for two hours watching Cosby, Family Ties, Cheers and Night Court. Scheduling was important of course but other media and advertising were also important.

[Baraden]

If you're in any kind of creative field and you're worried about AI; I have bad news - you're not very good at your job


AI is capable of only the most surface level and transparent writing; if you can't tell an AI wrote something you genuinely can't have had a higher education of any kind

[Shadowferal]

Norman Lear was amazing.

[JDL49]

They’re producing the content for the streaming services. That is the revenue stream. And said services fight tooth and nail to keep people in the dark about how successful (read, directly contributing to the value of the service) shows are in part to keep writers from knowing how much their role as a writer on a certain slow is. All to pay people less than they’re worth.

Because of SEC filings we actually do have an idea about the profitability of streaming. Outside of Netflix they lose money and Netflix, while very modestly in the black, is also MUCH riskier because its revenues are much more restricted than the other studios. The only way a streamer could ever be seriously profitable would be if subs were much higher and that ship has sailed........and sunk. And now the writers want a cut of those profits that, with the one exception, do not exist. Wonderful.

[Gumble]

If you're in any kind of creative field and you're worried about AI; I have bad news - you're not very good at your job

You just covered the vast majority of them.

AI is capable of only the most surface level and transparent writing; if you can't tell an AI wrote something you genuinely can't have had a higher education of any kind

For..... now.

If you can't see how quickly this will get "better" then I don't know what to tell you. Give it a few years, you won't be able to tell. It might not even take that long.

And that's the worry. It is justified. The problem is that I don't think there are any good solutions to it.

[Fencers]

Norman Lear was amazing.

He was a great producer. But also his claim to fame was as an adapter of other people's work. Namely British sitcoms and/or producing for American TV various shows.

Just saying. A lot of pitches, treatments and drafts came from writers that worked for Lear. Not necessarily Lear himself.

[Gaidax]

Yes yes, there was also printing press burning by people who copied manuscripts by hand back in the day.

And what is the result? They are gone and replaced by printing machines.

It's really simple - AI is here to stay and it will only evolve further, so they should get on with the times and use it as a tool for their work instead of trying to make the clock go back.

[eschatological]

Okay, so that is what it is LIKE, but here is what it is.

When I'm an IT worker and I write code, that code belongs to the company I work for. I do not get to decide how it is used, nor do I get to get paid a percentage of the project or even residuals. Furthremore, AI is ALREADY writing code and replacing me on the job.

You should be unionized and being paid residuals for unique algorithms and functions and other snippets of code being used in other programs. You're getting screwed.

[eschatological]

Yeah, no. That's just too much work to be practical.

Enforcing labor rights against capitalists always tend to be seen as "too much work" to be practical. But then again, they said the same thing about OSHA.

[JDL49]

And remember the guy writing the code gets paid even if its not a world beater. Even if it's
a failure if he/she is not at fault. Otoh that cherry picking pov would make more sense imo
if we were talking about a gig worker.