Israel and Palestine Conflict Heats Up

[Endus]

Hey, from what I gather from your blabbering, it is that it would only make the current situation last forever (because you do not have and basically no one has the power to submit Israel). Or you can go the realistic way. Your choice.

Your "realistic way" is the mass slaughter of innocents in an ongoing genocide.

That's not "realistic". It's monstrous. Even if it were true that it was your only option for your country to survive (which is a ludicrous claim, in and of itself), it would simply be an argument that your nation shouldn't exist as it currently does. That you're in the same category as the USSR, North Korea, or Nazi Germany. I'm not the one implying that, here, either, just to be absolutely clear. You are. That's the only conclusion that can be drawn from a claim that the acts of genocide are necessary.

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That’s funny, I recall people saying the same thing about apartheid in South Africa.

Or the Transatlantic Slave Trade. Or the Holodomor. Or the Holocaust.

The perpetrators of human rights atrocities and mass death campaigns always claim their death machines are "necessary".

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Removal of Hamas is a good step towards having "each side agree to talk to each other." But the problem has always been finding a partner to talk to in this mess among Palestinians, and preferably one that hasn't been indoctrinated since childhood to believe that there will be a one-state end with a Palestinian Arab ruler from the river to the sea.

As opposed to the Zionists who want a Jewish ruler from the river to the sea.

The two sides here aren't particularly different in goal or tactics. Just in strength. Where Israel has basically all the power in the region.

[tehdang]

Blowing up a hotel (killing 92 mostly civilians), isn't a 'reprisal attack', nor is assassinating a UK minister or UN mediator a 'riot'.

If you want to go down this road, then logically Palestinians are collectively guilty of Hamas and bear a moral burden for October 7th. Do you really think the King David Hotel bombing was representative of the period I just described? You can erect straw men to your heart's content, and I only hope that you find your twin that wants to describe Lebanese perfidy in terms of the massacre of 300 sleeping US and French personnel. Or maybe I should give you time to learn about the unrest in Mandatory Palestine beyond a couple of newspaper headlines, to the point where you can summarize 30 years beyond 3 days?

[Specialka]

Your "realistic way" is the mass slaughter of innocents in an ongoing genocide.

That's not "realistic". It's monstrous. Even if it were true that it was your only option for your country to survive (which is a ludicrous claim, in and of itself), it would simply be an argument that your nation shouldn't exist as it currently does. That you're in the same category as the USSR, North Korea, or Nazi Germany. I'm not the one implying that, here, either, just to be absolutely clear. You are. That's the only conclusion that can be drawn from a claim that the acts of genocide are necessary.

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Or the Transatlantic Slave Trade. Or the Holodomor. Or the Holocaust.

The perpetrators of human rights atrocities and mass death campaigns always claim their death machines are "necessary".

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As opposed to the Zionists who want a Jewish ruler from the river to the sea.

The two sides here aren't particularly different in goal or tactics. Just in strength. Where Israel has basically all the power in the region.

Not sure where you get such a claim was made in what I said.

[Jessicka]

If you want to go down this road, then logically Palestinians are collectively guilty of Hamas and bear a moral burden for October 7th. Do you really think the King David Hotel bombing was representative of the period I just described? You can erect straw men to your heart's content, and I only hope that you find your twin that wants to describe Lebanese perfidy in terms of the massacre of 300 sleeping US and French personnel. Or maybe I should give you time to learn about the unrest in Mandatory Palestine beyond a couple of newspaper headlines, to the point where you can summarize 30 years beyond 3 days?

I mean, the unrest literally led the UK to cutting the mandate short, and refusing to have anything to do with the place in the aftermath because it was sick of the shit.

And no, I'm not presenting Palestinians as collectively worthy of punishment in the same way you do with your 'fence them in until they can behave' ideas on policy highlighted a few pages ago. Quite the contrary. Although I'm somewhat of the view that, maybe don't elect the perpetrators PM, have them haunt middle eastern politics for generations, or name airports after them.

[Endus]

Not sure where you get such a claim was made in what I said.

Israel is engaged in an ongoing genocide.

You said that was the only realistic option.

Ergo, you support and endorse genocide.

This is not complicated logic, dude.

If you're gonna deny that it's a genocide, fine, we'll put you in the same class of people as Holocaust and Armenian Genocide deniers. Because what Israel is doing to Gaza is pretty definitively checking off all the boxes of "what is a genocide?"

[Specialka]

Israel is engaged in an ongoing genocide.

You said that was the only realistic option.

Ergo, you support and endorse genocide.

This is not complicated logic, dude.

If you're gonna deny that it's a genocide, fine, we'll put you in the same class of people as Holocaust and Armenian Genocide deniers. Because what Israel is doing to Gaza is pretty definitively checking off all the boxes of "what is a genocide?"

Not what I said or implied. I said that saying that Israel is the only "at fault" here is not helping to resolve the situation.

[Endus]

Not what I said or implied. I said that saying that Israel is the only "at fault" here is not helping to resolve the situation.

For the genocide they're committing?

Israel is 150% the only group at "fault" for that. Nothing is forcing their hand. It is not an act of self defense. Claims that it's self-defense are just a form of genocide denialism; you see the same with any other flavor of genocide denialism. That and "we're the real victims, actually" are the two of the primary forms of rhetoric in genocide denialism other than straight denial that the deaths even happened.

There's nothing Palestinians can do that will stop this slaughter. Literally nothing. Hostages were released, genocide continued (if the hostages weren't shot on sight by the IDF). This isn't about self-defense and their targets are primarily not Hamas. It's hospitals. Journalists. Aid trucks and relief efforts. Evacuation routes. Refugee camps.

[Draco-Onis]

Hey, from what I gather from your blabbering, it is that it would only make the current situation last forever (because you do not have and basically no one has the power to submit Israel). Or you can go the realistic way. Your choice.

How long would Israel last without the Iron dome? the vetos in the UN against sanctions? Western supplies? so no Israel isn't a strong independent country they are a satellite state who would fold like cheap furniture without Western support especially the US. This is not speculative as many presidents have forced Israel to do things it didn't want with such threats.

[Jessicka]

How long would Israel last without the Iron dome? the vetos in the UN against sanctions? Western supplies? so no Israel isn't a strong independent country they are a satellite state who would fold like cheap furniture without Western support especially the US. This is not speculative as many presidents have forced Israel to do things it didn't want with such threats.

Their neighbours are militarily crippled and have been for decades. Even without Western support, Israel still has more than enough in reserve (even if it doesn't have nukes) to continue to dominate the region for years to come, it might suffer a little more from attacks but they'd still be futile.

[Draco-Onis]

Their neighbours are militarily crippled and have been for decades. Even without Western support, Israel still has more than enough in reserve (even if it doesn't have nukes) to continue to dominate the region for years to come, it might suffer a little more from attacks but they'd still be futile.

Without support they would have to be very limited in their action for example they wouldn't be making it rain bombs in Gaza if it wasn't for the American unlimited credit card.

[unfilteredJW]

This situation is like a divorce. No one is clean. Everyone has responsabilities in this mess.

Holy shit does this comment speak fucking volumes.

[Captain N]

Holy shit does this comment speak fucking volumes.

You mean like the woman who tries to escape domestic violence but a bunch of bigots clearly state that it's her fault her husband beats her to the brink of death all the time? And when she finally does muster up the courage for divorce and winds up finally beaten to death those same folks blame her for not acting fast enough. At least that's what I got using the context of that person's previous posts....

[Cthulhu 2020]

Funny how you are describing here, since I talk about fascism basically only here and most of the time and if any, I think it is mostly the left leaning posters that call everything they do not like fascism, hence diluting the term and its meaning.

Fascism is on the rise around the world. Right wing ultra militaristic fascistic views are what is currently enabling the genocide in Gaza. Project 2025, Trump ousting all people who are not completely loyal to him from the RNC are both very clearly fascistic in nature.

Not sorry if those facts bother you.

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If you want to go down this road, then logically Palestinians are collectively guilty of Hamas and bear a moral burden for October 7th.

Israel already thinks this way, not sure why you're pretending it's some kind of hypothetical.

[Elegiac]

Holy shit does this comment speak fucking volumes.

It’s an extremely French take on marriage, I’ll say that. Lol.

[Sunseeker]

Fascism is on the rise around the world.

It should be noted that fascism isn't just on the rise in obvious overt ways too. It's on the rise on nations shouting "get out" at tourists. It's likewise on the rise in tourists from more powerful countries shitting all over locals. The fundamental core of fascism is the value of ones self over all others. An insular, selfish, disregard for all other ways and peoples. It's not just some obnoxious thing America and Israel and Russia are doing.

[Elegiac]

It should be noted that fascism isn't just on the rise in obvious overt ways too. It's on the rise on nations shouting "get out" at tourists. It's likewise on the rise in tourists from more powerful countries shitting all over locals. The fundamental core of fascism is the value of ones self over all others. An insular, selfish, disregard for all other ways and peoples. It's not just some obnoxious thing America and Israel and Russia are doing.

Let’s also be fair.

It’s also not “on the rise” as much as it is many Westerners being mask-off as the political and economic situation continues to fracture. The rhetoric being directed internally mirrors that which was has been normalized against people in the developing world for centuries.

[Endus]

It should be noted that fascism isn't just on the rise in obvious overt ways too. It's on the rise on nations shouting "get out" at tourists. It's likewise on the rise in tourists from more powerful countries shitting all over locals. The fundamental core of fascism is the value of ones self over all others. An insular, selfish, disregard for all other ways and peoples. It's not just some obnoxious thing America and Israel and Russia are doing.

Not just your self, but "those like me". It's not selfish to the exclusion of all others, but wraps itself in that arbitrary sheet of "sameness" so fascists can pretend they're acting in defense of a community of like-minded people.

The arbitrariness, of course, means they will fully justify to themselves excluding anyone who seems to be part of that group who challenges this rhetoric, as a "traitor". That's where terms like "race traitor" come from.

This is all right in the name, after all; "Fascism" derives from the Italian word "fascio", meaning a bundle of sticks. The idea being that each person is a "stick", and there is strength in binding like-minded "sticks" together, so the bundle is stronger than any single stick alone, against the "threat" of all other kinds.

[Sunseeker]

Not just your self, but "those like me". It's not selfish to the exclusion of all others, but wraps itself in that arbitrary sheet of "sameness" so fascists can pretend they're acting in defense of a community of like-minded people.

The arbitrariness, of course, means they will fully justify to themselves excluding anyone who seems to be part of that group who challenges this rhetoric, as a "traitor". That's where terms like "race traitor" come from.

This is all right in the name, after all; "Fascism" derives from the Italian word "fascio", meaning a bundle of sticks. The idea being that each person is a "stick", and there is strength in binding like-minded "sticks" together, so the bundle is stronger than any single stick alone, against the "threat" of all other kinds.

And "those like me" is an ever moving target, constantly becoming tighter and excluding more and more niche groups. A general sense of desiring to group up with "those like me" is fine, but it is importantly the very narrow, and constantly shrinking definition of who is "like me".

[PACOX]

All pro-Israel arguments always boil down to "fuck humanity and morality as long as I win". Fascism to the fullest, but you can't call it fascism because I'll call it antisemitism.

[tehdang]

Funny how you are describing here, since I talk about fascism basically only here and most of the time and if any, I think it is mostly the left leaning posters that call everything they do not like fascism, hence diluting the term and its meaning.

With the ultimate manifestation that yelling at tourists is also fascism, I have to think people are dedicated to proving you right. It's sort of an umbrella term that encompasses everything center and center-right. We already have broad terms for such things, like "right of center." Those don't really pack the punch of calling someone a fascist or something one supports as fascism.

you can't call it fascism because I'll call it antisemitism.

As if doctrinaire antifascists can't stumble into antisemitism in their pursuit. They should take a look back at anti-communist regimes that commit moral error in their pursuit. Are they any better, or is their aim perpetually unswerving?