Dawntrail

[Arlette]

...the end of Shadowbringers was meant to be a transition into the finale of a 10 year long plot.

And the end of Endwalker was a set up for a totally new plot beginning.

Meant to do two TOTALLY different things.

It's always the sub 100 post accounts too lol. So transparent.

- - - Updated - - -

Enix should stop trying to make shit more convoluted than it needs to be in almost everything they do from story telling to even this shit.

Oh I see what's going on here. Sorry I didn't know you were doing the thing that Grinning and Cow always do in this thread. That's my bad for engaging honestly.

[uwotm869]

Look I don’t think they need to top Shadowbringers but so far nearly everything storywise since the end of Shadowbringers has been one disappointment after another and this patch’s MSQ just rubbed salt into the wound of poor writing and uninspired fan service crap that they’ve been churning out since EW. It was just bad man, you can’t seriously think that MSQ was acceptable?

It's always the sub 100 post accounts too lol. So transparent.

I’m gonna ignore this weird ass terminally online loser comment

[Arlette]

Look I don’t think they need to top Shadowbringers but so far nearly everything storywise since the end of Shadowbringers has been one disappointment after another and this patch’s MSQ just rubbed salt into the wound of poor writing and uninspired fan service crap that they’ve been churning out since EW. It was just bad man, you can’t seriously think that MSQ was acceptable?

"is bad" is not a comment worth taking seriously to even critique.

If you cannot understand the massive difference that the ending of both expansion's plot was doing that's on you for expecting Endwalker's to be serving the same purpose as Shadowbringer's.

[Ghost of Cow]

Oh I see what's going on here. Sorry I didn't know you were doing the thing that Grinning and Cow always do in this thread. That's my bad for engaging honestly.

It's like the inquisition over there, you're just eager to turn on anyone and label them heretic at the drop of a hat.

[Katchii]

Look I don’t think they need to top Shadowbringers but so far nearly everything storywise since the end of Shadowbringers has been one disappointment after another and this patch’s MSQ just rubbed salt into the wound of poor writing and uninspired fan service crap that they’ve been churning out since EW. It was just bad man, you can’t seriously think that MSQ was acceptable?

I’m gonna ignore this weird ass terminally online loser comment

I thoroughly enjoyed all of the post Endwalker MSQ leading up to Dawntrail. Yes, I thought it was acceptable. It wasn't nearly as hype inducing and masterful as some of the previous ones, but that doesn't mean it was trash.

Comments that insinuate stuff like that, where anything less than perfection = trash are just hard to take seriously. It sounds contrarian just for the sake of it, which is cringe inducing.

You're entitled to your opinion, just like everyone else is entitled to theirs.

[Grinning Serpent]

I thoroughly enjoyed all of the post Endwalker MSQ leading up to Dawntrail. Yes, I thought it was acceptable. It wasn't nearly as hype inducing and masterful as some of the previous ones, but that doesn't mean it was trash.

Comments that insinuate stuff like that, where anything less than perfection = trash are just hard to take seriously. It sounds contrarian just for the sake of it, which is cringe inducing.

You're entitled to your opinion, just like everyone else is entitled to theirs.

The whole void thing should've been tossed in the bin, but it was playable I guess. But like... compared to post-5.3, it's not even close.

Arlette talked about how it's different cuz it was setting up for EW being the culmination of a whole saga... but shouldn't there be equal weight given to setting up a new saga?

All of the stuff involving the void should have just been EW's version of Sorrow of Werlyt, leaving the post-EW stuff to be dedicated to WoL visiting old friends and comrades. See how they're doing, check in on the various city-states and such. You know, actually move the world's setting forward? Like how Admiral Werlyb or whatever her stupid name is made big strides in meeting the kobolds in the middle, and how Ul'dah took steps towards reconciliation with the amal'jaa during the Pagl'than arc. Essentially, spend the first 2 or 3 patches letting the player have their victory lap - you saved the world, now you get a chance to walk around and see the fruits of your labor while your favorite NPCs lavish praise on you. It's a power fantasy, after all - let players have that closure!

Then you have 2 or 3 patches to introduce new characters and the plot lines leading the WoL to DT's regions. You'd need to replace the void dungeon with something else (and it would probably become a solo duty that unlocks a Scarmaglione trial), but you could reuse lapis manalis as-is and just replace Cagnazzo with a different boss.

I dunno. I think EW's post-patch stuff is probably the worst since ARR's. I think the expansion really suffers from making the trials part of the MSQ instead of making them a separate, self-contained narrative.

[Katchii]

The whole void thing should've been tossed in the bin, but it was playable I guess. But like... compared to post-5.3, it's not even close.

The whole void thing....you mean the delving more into the lore of the 13th and exploring options for how to save it from it's fate? That's a completely relevant storyline from all the way back to ARR and very MSQ worthy. Sounds like you just didn't like how it was done, which is fair. It could have been done better, but what they did was fine to me. Not great, not terrible.

Arlette talked about how it's different cuz it was setting up for EW being the culmination of a whole saga... but shouldn't there be equal weight given to setting up a new saga?

Again, just because you didn't like the way it was set up compared to previous expansion set-ups doesn't mean it was trash. It being a whole new saga means it can't have as much weight as one you know has been set-up for 10 years. There's no lore, no background, no stakes to give weight to the completely new saga. How do you expect a completely new saga, with completely new settings, lore, characters, etc... to have as much weight as a saga you've been living for the last 10 years? That seems like a completely unreasonable expectation to me.

All of the stuff involving the void should have just been EW's version of Sorrow of Werlyt, leaving the post-EW stuff to be dedicated to WoL visiting old friends and comrades. See how they're doing, check in on the various city-states and such. You know, actually move the world's setting forward?

You're entitled to your opinion, but this sounds like you're disappointed the game didn't do what you wanted/ expected and are now complaining about it like some kind of petulant child.

This is not your game to run or story to tell.

I've always felt like a minority on this forum because I have the viewpoint that I am literally just along for the ride and am content experiencing the story the company (whether it's Blizzard, SE, or any other MMO company) just wants to tell me. I can still be disappointed, but it's a far cry from the reactions I see here, like this one where the game is bad and should feel bad because it didn't do what I expected.

Like how Admiral Werlyb or whatever her stupid name is made big strides in meeting the kobolds in the middle, and how Ul'dah took steps towards reconciliation with the amal'jaa during the Pagl'than arc. Essentially, spend the first 2 or 3 patches letting the player have their victory lap - you saved the world, now you get a chance to walk around and see the fruits of your labor while your favorite NPCs lavish praise on you. It's a power fantasy, after all - let players have that closure!

Pretty sure we did that "victory lap"....It just didn't take 2-3 whole patches to do it. I remember doing it, I'm just not 100% clear as to when as it may have been interspersed throughout the post MSQ stuff. If I'm completely wrong let me know.

Then you have 2 or 3 patches to introduce new characters and the plot lines leading the WoL to DT's regions. You'd need to replace the void dungeon with something else (and it would probably become a solo duty that unlocks a Scarmaglione trial), but you could reuse lapis manalis as-is and just replace Cagnazzo with a different boss.

I felt that they would have done a disservice to the void narrative if they cut it short and not included it as part of the MSQ. The 13th is an MSQ worthy piece of lore. You didn't like that narrative, that's fair criticism but saying it should have been a separate thing not within the MSQ feels completely disconnected from the lore and setting of FFXIV. The Source and it's fragments are a core piece of the FFXIV narrative, relegating one of the most significant fragments (the source of all voidsent, enemies we've been fighting since before ARR) as basically a side quest instead of putting it front and center as part of the MSQ would be ridiculous.

I dunno. I think EW's post-patch stuff is probably the worst since ARR's. I think the expansion really suffers from making the trials part of the MSQ instead of making them a separate, self-contained narrative.

I disagree. I think having the trials as part of the MSQ gives weight to those encounters. The WoL is supposed to face powerful foes, if they all got pushed to the side it would feel awkward to me.

[Ghost of Cow]

Post-EW (and Endwalker in general) wasn't up to previous standards in my opinion, but it wasn't bad by any means.

The whole void thing....you mean the delving more into the lore of the 13th and exploring options for how to save it from it's fate? That's a completely relevant storyline from all the way back to ARR and very MSQ worthy. Sounds like you just didn't like how it was done, which is fair. It could have been done
better, but what they did was fine to me. Not great, not terrible.

The 13th thing felt weird because we've heard different stories about it over time, and it finally culminates in, "What if we just had some Light?" which feels really weird given that previously we were led to believe that even the Ascians felt that they had to write the entire world off completely as a total loss.

It may just be me, but I feel like sometimes it's fine for there to be things in a story that simply can't be fixed or magicked away. The events of a story can quickly start to lose gravity when there's literally nothing that can't just be fixed. (Including imminent demise, in many cases!)

[zealo]

It's incredibly obvious that the whole void story is a lengthy setup for an eventual Lightbringers expansion on the 13th in a couple of years time.

It's a less than optimal lead-up to dawntrail narrowing it down to a single .55 patch, but that doesn't mean what the post-EW story did was entirely useless in a wider sense.

[Tech614]

It's incredibly obvious that the whole void story is a lengthy setup for an eventual Lightbringers expansion on the 13th in a couple of years time.

It's a less than optimal lead-up to dawntrail narrowing it down to a single .55 patch, but that doesn't mean what the post-EW story did was entirely useless in a wider sense.

If copy pasting the FF4 story was a setup for a future xpac, that xpac will suck because they already showed their hand.

Granted I'm not saying there isn't some things they can use, there is but I don't see the 13th ever being the primary setting of a new xpac more like a future single zone in a future xpac.

[Ghost of Cow]

If copy pasting the FF4 story was a setup for a future xpac, that xpac will suck.

I still don't understand how you think that Post-EW MSQ is "Copy Paste of FF4"

It has literally nothing to do with FF4's storyline in any way, other than the names and nostalgia references.

[Tech614]

I still don't understand how you think that Post-EW MSQ is "Copy Paste of FF4"

It has literally nothing to do with FF4's storyline in any way, other than the names and nostalgia references.

It is literally the exact same plot, cliff notes version I already explained this to you and you would realize it if you actually played FF4.

The characters are not the same, even though some have the same names but they follow the exact same character arc progression. Literally go play FF4 before you try to have this conversation with me again. The pixel remaster is nice and cheap. Go for it.

You try to make it sound like it's the weapon quest line from ShB where that was just fan service for FF7 when the literal story arc is the same here. You try to make it sound like anima from EW which was again just fan service not the literal same story arc.

[Ghost of Cow]

It is literally the exact same plot, cliff notes version I already explained this to you and you would realize it if you actually played FF4.

No, you just keep repeating that it's the same. You've never actually managed to make the point.

Where in FF4 is the "Darkness-ravaged world that the antagonists are trying to escape so they can die", exactly? Where's the interdimensional invasion into our world from that world? Where are ANY of the same plot points?

Seriously, find ONE plot point that's copy pasted from FF4.

The characters are not the same, even though they have the same names but they follow the exact same character arc progression.

Uh...so you think Golbez in FF4 was actually Cecil? You think the Four Fiends were voidsent trying to suicide-by-WoL? You think Zeromus was an amalgamation of Zodiark and a dragon that we - in part, at least - eventually redeem and save?

And you're telling ME I didn't play FF4?

[Tech614]

And you're telling ME I didn't play FF4?

Yes, because you don't even realize Durante is Theodore, aka Golbez and Golbez or that Zero is the stand in for Cecil. And you're telling me I think Golbez is cecil lmfao.

Instead you're strawmanning an argument about how they made the story work for the 13th and XIV universe as a whole and completely ignoring the fact their motivations and character arcs are exactly the same.

[Ghost of Cow]

Instead you're strawmanning an argument about how they made the story work for the 13th and XIV universe as a whole and completely ignoring the fact their motivations and character arcs are exactly the same.

"Trying to invade the source to escape their infinite wheel of rebirth in a world turned into a void of darkness" is totally the same motivation and character arc?

Do you remember Zemus or Golbez from FF4 at all? Or the overarching story of FF4?

Again, you just keep repeating that they're the same, but you never actually explain how.

[Aucald]

Yes, because you don't even realize Durante is Theodore, aka Golbez and Golbez or that Zero is the stand in for Cecil. And you're telling me I think Golbez is cecil lmfao.

Instead you're strawmanning an argument about how they made the story work for the 13th and XIV universe as a whole and completely ignoring the fact their motivations and character arcs are exactly the same.

The post-MSQ of EW (Buried Memory on into Growing Light) is meant to be a pretty weighty allusion to the events and characters of FF4, but it's not a 1:1 copy and the backstory of both the characters and events diverge pretty significantly in places. Golbez's characterization and plot are significantly different, as Golbez in FF4 is simply a misguided (or mind-controlled) Lunarian under the thumb of Zemus, whereas FF14's Golbez is a Voidsent suffering from an identity crisis who nonetheless is looking for a way to allow him and his fellow Voidsent servants to be able to die and end their tormented and endless existences within the Void of the Thirteenth. Zeromus, too, is an entirely different character between FF4 and FF14 - in FF4 he's simply a distillation and creation of Zemus' hatred for all things. In contrast, in FF14 it's a creation of Golbez formed from the remnant of Azdaja tainted by the Void and turned into a powerful Voidsent.

Zero herself is more an expy of Kain than she is Cecil, IMO - though to be honest, she ultimately bears little relation to either despite her heel-face conversion into a Paladin at the end of the storyline.

[Grinning Serpent]

I disagree. I think having the trials as part of the MSQ gives weight to those encounters. The WoL is supposed to face powerful foes, if they all got pushed to the side it would feel awkward to me.

And yet that's literally how the game worked for three entire expansions. Trials came in two forms - part of the core MSQ (including the trial that ends the core story and a second trial that concludes the patch content for that story arc), and then a second set exploring a separate but related narrative released during and after the patch MSQ.

HW had Warring Triad, SB had Four Lords, ShB had Sorrow of Werlyt. EW bucked the trend and the entire product suffered for it. There's a reason they kept doing what they were doing, it fucking works. And just because it isn't the core MSQ doesn't mean it's not relevant or important. All three narratives have been tied back into the MSQ and referenced numerous times.

[Ghost of Cow]

The post-MSQ of EW (Buried Memory on into Growing Light) is meant to be a pretty weighty allusion to the events and characters of FF4

Yeah, and some of the references (or references turned on their head) are pretty fun.

The "Protagonists Dragon vs. Golbez's Dragon" battle for instance. Basically the reverse of what happens in FF4, and it's pretty funny.

[Aucald]

Yeah, and some of the references (or references turned on their head) are pretty fun.

The "Protagonists Dragon vs. Golbez's Dragon" battle for instance. Basically the reverse of what happens in FF4, and it's pretty funny.

Yeah, I had a lot of fun with the FF14 story arc, especially since FF4 (or FF2 as I knew it way back when) was one of the first RPGs I cut my teeth on as a younger kid. I actually played FF2 before FF1 back on the NES.

[Ghost of Cow]

Zero herself is more an expy of Kain than she is Cecil, IMO - though to be honest, she ultimately bears little relation to either despite her heel-face conversion into a Paladin at the end of the storyline.

Forgot to quote this part, but yeah...other than "Started with some Dark, got some Light" there's really no reason to see Zero as a Cecil copy/paste - or a copy of any other FF4 character, really.

(Even as a "Dark Knight", Cecil was never a true antagonist or bad guy. He starts off questioning his own actions from Day 1.)

Again, the references are there - but claiming that it's a copy/paste job of FF4 in any way is simply off-base. Zero's personality, motivations, background, abilities, participation in events, character arc, etc all have absolutely nothing to do with Cecil. There's only the Dark/Light transition and that's just a reference like much of the other parts of the Post-EW material.