How to reward 25 man raids for "logistical effort"

[Deleted]

Raiding is not about accesibility, raiding has to be different than running a dungeon. That is my personal opinion.

Raid has to be something more, raid has to be inclusive, not exclusive, it has to bring the need to bring people together to do stuff.

Really confused about this, you want to limit accessability making raids more exclusive content, but raids have to be more inclusive?

I will repeat, blizzard should fix the dungeons so people that wanna do stuff with their friends only can do them.

You are saying that people who prefer raiding in 10 man with their friends should be excluded from raiding so you can feel more special?

But the feeling you get when you see a small army jumping down to defeat Nefarian is rewarding enough for people to go through it.

Apparently many people didn't share your opinion, considering how many who today raid 10 man and prefer it.

Still i fail to see how, what it takes to run 25 fits with the 15 people raid suggestion.
It is a size in the middle and definately it doesnt need to treat raid leading or guild leading with such a size into a second job to run 15 people raids.

I'm sure 15 man raids would work very well, just that the amazing thing about 10 man is the flexibility. Maybe it's easier for you to understand if I give a concrete example. Currently I raid with my best friend an amazing player and raidleader he works nights though in a 25 man guild he wouldn't be able to make even one normal raid night as a rule. Yet thanks to the 10 man format we can raid friday saturday and another not fixed night late that his schedule permits often after midnight. This is hard going on people that need to get up early but we do it anyway because we can raid together. Now we can usually find the people for these times but not always easily of course. If we needed to find another 5 people it wouldn't be possible for us to raid in this manner.

And it seems you missed how raiding works for the average Joe. Most 10 man guilds quickly falls apart because they can't sustain a 10 man raid. If most guilds struggle to find 10 players what do you think would happen if 15 is required?

[Oldmilwaukee]

You guyz really want Paragon to go back to 25 man rofl. Giving any sort of better reward in either of the 2 mode will force all the serious guild to switch to that specific mode which is pretty damn stupid. 25 men takes more work indeed but in the end its a choice. So your making the choice of making your life harder and Blizz should reward you for it ? Just switch to 10s if its too hard for you.

[araine]

There is some incentive to do 25s in that everyone in the 25s gears faster. That works for groups that are elite and can down stuff at the same rate as in 10s. For everyone else - aka people who cannot down as many bosses in 25s as 10s - 10s gear faster and therefore that is where the bulk of players go. Its a bimodal distribution based on skill and incentive.

We have the key issue here. 25mans already gear you up faster if you clear the content. But If you are not good enough to do it, You are of course not getting up to par with raids that perform better. So can anyone explain why we should give welfare epics to struggling 25mans. If you perform up to par you already have more cookies landing in your raids and or lap.

It is pretty obvious that quite a few 25man fanatics would prefer to see 10mans DIE or become useless content and as a result of that killing of 10man guilds folks will be forced into 25mans if they want any gear anymore. This will cause so much drama and sub losses it is scary to think of what it will do to the game. I predict over 2 million subs will be lost if they go down this route. And already dead servers will become even more dead as a result of this.

Killing of well functioning 10man guilds and create a bunch of dysfunctional 25mans will just mean folks will quit or server transfer to a real 25man guild and the dead servers will die even faster. Since you are forcing 25mans and when they fail and 10mans isnt the option folks will quit or transfer. and Quit will be a very common theme trust me on that one.

[nehunter]

Oh really?

Really it is mindblowing that after so many statements on every aspect of this 10vs25 problem from the devs, you people still feel that you know better and that you are part of some great majority.

I approve of this post (Although I have done the sin of posting in a similar thread recently)

[Heathy]

We have the key issue here. 25mans already gear you up faster if you clear the content. But If you are not good enough to do it, You are of course not getting up to par with raids that perform better. So can anyone explain why we should give welfare epics to struggling 25mans. If you perform up to par you already have more cookies landing in your raids and or lap.

It is pretty obvious that quite a few 25man fanatics would prefer to see 10mans DIE or become useless content and as a result of that killing of 10man guilds folks will be forced into 25mans if they want any gear anymore. This will cause so much drama and sub losses it is scary to think of what it will do to the game. I predict over 2 million subs will be lost if they go down this route. And already dead servers will become even more dead as a result of this.

Killing of well functioning 10man guilds and create a bunch of dysfunctional 25mans will just mean folks will quit or server transfer to a real 25man guild and the dead servers will die even faster. Since you are forcing 25mans and when they fail and 10mans isnt the option folks will quit or transfer. and Quit will be a very common theme trust me on that one.

dude they nearly lost 2mil subs when they changed to this current model.

[nehunter]

why does 25man need an advantage over 10man? u play wotever u want... theres plenty of 25man guilds out there

Stone Guard (10): 29119 (96.88%)
Stone Guard (25): 2196 (94.05%)

Numbers don't lie, there aren't plenty of 25man guilds. The vast majority took the 10man path and no one took it for the glory.

Those that still care about 25man do so because they don't want to see the endgame of a Massive Multiplayer Online game downsized even more : 40man dead - 25man (only 2k guilds left)

There is no room for both formats in the same tier, this is my feeling. Even if they are separate and can't be compared either way. One of them will die out simply due to path of less resistance.

[Penguintamer]

You guyz really want Paragon to go back to 25 man rofl. Giving any sort of better reward in either of the 2 mode will force all the serious guild to switch to that specific mode which is pretty damn stupid. 25 men takes more work indeed but in the end its a choice. So your making the choice of making your life harder and Blizz should reward you for it ? Just switch to 10s if its too hard for you.

Paragon didn't want to go to 10 mans, but they couldn't get enough decent players to actually do 25 mans at the level that they wanted. Of course they'd prefer to do 25 mans on heroic again, like they have always done. Paragon dropping to 10 mans is the perfect example of why 25 mans are logistically more terrible to put together. It's not a matter of making your life harder by doing 25 mans, its a matter of doing the more difficult content, logistically and literally, - and wanting better rewards for it. Because right now, 10 mans win out in both being easier than 25 mans to complete, and by being infinitely easier to get a group for.

[pnutbutter]

-mass summons
-cauldrons
-more portals in instances
-less trash
-repair and reforger near every boss

[nehunter]

It is a fluff item in 10mans

Before firelands it was unthinkable of giving legendary items to guilds that require next to no coordination.

[Talen]

Since people keep bringing this up, i will have to point out the simplistic idea:

1) Make raid content available to 5 mans
2) Share the locks, the loot, the difficulty, the achievements between 5 and 10.
3) See 10 man dying and repeat after me!!!

If people want to raid 10 man, there will be 10 man raids.
If people don't want to raid 10 man, there wont be 10 man raids!
Simple as that,
If they die out, that simply means that nobody cares about 10 man!!!

I believe this scenario would be most likely not to happen.

Why? Because 10s offer a lot to players that 5s cannot provide and would do so without a corresponding rise in the complexities associated with logistics. The same cannot be said for 25s compared with 10s; in that case 25s offer the same pluses as 10s, with a huge increase in the complexity of logistics and several factors many players would consider major disadvantages.

You'd see 10s take a hit, but the formats are far more equal in what they offer.

EJL

[Granyala]

So the solution is more freebies and life support for your failing raids? And to kill of all 10 man guilds. Yeah that sounds like a fucking fantastic plan if you want to lose another 2 million subs.

Agreed, thats why I wrote "Incentive" and not "gief moar epixx!!".

[Drilnos]

Before firelands it was unthinkable of giving legendary items to guilds that require next to no coordination.

Yeah, you know, every time I read about the impending death of 25 mans I feel just a little bit bad. And then I read something like this. Now, 25 mans could disappear tomorrow and I'd sleep like a baby.

[Talen]

its easy to just shrug it off as simply, if they preferred it they would simply be doing it, that obviously not the case because ppl favour 10 mans for the ease of getting it formed and done

And this is wrong because....? You are correct this is likely one of the major reasons. At least, as far as PuGs go. Guilds usually operate on a timetable or have events scheduled in advance.

its common knowledge that you can do 10man, and get the same reward for doing it, there is no need to branch into 25s at any point because there is no incentive to do so.. why put yourself through the hassle when you wont get anything out of it. this is the basis of this whole discussion.

Because you like the format and what it offers?

EJL

[Heathy]

that is part of it, although its obviously not keeping ppl doing it or this topic wouldn't even exist.

[Talen]

To the people suggesting 25-man raiders should play that size just because they like it - why can't you continue playing 10-mans because you like it when Blizzard introduces higher ilevel loot in 25-mans? Or are we going on with the double standards?

Players go for the gear, so when 25s have better gear, players go there.
If the gear and other rewards is equalised however, then players have a free choice of format as they no longer need to consider gear. They can choose whatever format they want knowing they will not be denied content or rewards based upon that choice.

What is drawing players away from 25s? Opportunity in many cases - raid leaders are deterred from forming 25s due to the increased load so fewer slots are around so people go 10s. Fewer groups also means harder to get a convenient group. Progression is another - with all else equal, it is easier to skew a 10 man group with skilled players to allow you to steamroller dungeons designed for an average group. Population decline also ensures there are fewer players on various servers so harder to get more players together.

25-man raiding does need saving in the mid-tier bracket. Because just like there are people preferring 10-mans, there are people preferring 25-mans but will soon have no place to raid in, when only the top 300-400 guilds in the world continue raiding them.

So the question becomes - should 10 man players be forced to raid 25s so 25 man players have some place to raid in?

ELJL

[Heathy]

your already denying yourself the content by not running the 25mans and only running 10 man..

[araine]

your already denying yourself the content by not running the 25mans and only running 10 man..

Thats fine i dont want to have anything to do with 25m or 40m again. Just because of that you shouldnt think it is ok to force me to do them just to get the gear we need.

[Heathy]

why would you need that gear if the 10 man is balanced around the tier that drops within it ?

[araine]

I would prefer it just fine.
And i wouldn't feel bribbed at all.
Just properly rewarded.

It is bribes, you already have more perks in more tier tokens and more loot in general. anything more and it will just look obscene. Sure i am sure you would love to get 25 epics on every boss i mean all that hard work needs to pay off. 25mans already gets perks.

Let them live on its own merit if they cant so be it.

---------- Post added 2012-11-21 at 11:15 PM ----------

why would you need that gear if the 10 man is balanced around the tier that drops within it ?

than 10man is USELESS and will DIE. what part of that do you not get.

[Talen]

Raid has to be something more, raid has to be inclusive, not exclusive, it has to bring the need to bring people together to do stuff.

They do. But that doesn't mean they need to bring 25 players who don't want to raid together to do so.

I understand what it takes to GM or raid lead 25s since as i said we downsized.
But the feeling you get when you see a small army jumping down to defeat Nefarian is rewarding enough for people to go through it.

Yes...its a great feeling. However, that doesn't mean everyone feels the same way, or that it needs a small army of 25 instead of a small army of 10.

EJL