Welfare Tier Sets

[Deleted]

The term Welfare is pretty stupid, but the people pulling the "BUT IN CLASSIC YOU HAD TO AFRM FOR 6 WEEKS TO GET ONE ITEM YOU WOULD THEN REPLACE IN MOLTE NCORE IT WAS A GREAT WAY TO PLAY TEH GAME I DON'T MISS SLEEP AT ALL NOPE NOT ONE BIT LOL" card are really annoying, please stop that.

[Yarathir]

You followed up with even more brilliance. Lol, what you said has no relevance to anything I did. The joke is on your stupid attempt to attack me. Let me guess? Your an entitled LFR player? Or a fake heroic raider who wholly supports LFR. I've been on this thread for a while. I didn't hide anything, anybody that's literate knows my stance. Though you don't seem literate. You seem the type that makes up things in your head and believes it. Stay entitled bud. Getting the feeling this is yarv too. What a sick person.

You're still mad because you got called out on your shit? Grow up, man. Stop being such a baby, and stop being so obsessive, because that is what is starting to seem sick.


Your behaviour is hurting your cause. I'm sure everyone on your side must be facepalming at the sea of immaturity you have dropped in this thread so far.


In the end: stop being such an obsessive little petulant child. Slandering me is not gonna make you any more right, or your defeat earlier on in the thread any less embarrassing. If anything, you're just showing that you're a sore loser.

[Magicalcrab]

There is no dedication to anything in flex either. You can run with anyone at any given time while leaving and joining a different group whenever you want.

They are not limiting you. You are limiting yourself by choice.

I don't think it's particularly productive to make sweeping assumptions about the motivations and playstyles of others.

Besides, if Flex raiding is so easy and such a godsend, why would having tier sets drop from LFR be a problem for progression? Can't the people who don't want to do LFR just do Flex raiding instead? Is it just to limit people's options?
This worries me, because forcing players into playing "the right way" has generally been at the root of a lot of the most poorly received design decisions in Blizzard's games, for obvious reasons.

[Pickynerd]

What we need less is of players with your mentality that you deserve everything handed to you on a silver platter just because you pay a sub fee.

Tier set bonuses serve no purpose for people who are not going to go into progression raiding. They already said they are keeping LFR gear power levels above heroic 5 mans, but below flex normal mode in WoD. Why do you demand more? Its the exact same except no tier sets, and no tier bonuses. Your gear will still be relatively powerful compared to current LFR.

It is nothing more than pixels on a fictional character along with some stats to make things easier. The game is about having fun, who care who got what and where. Do you have fun killing bosses and getting loot? Good, but don't piss on someone else who wants to have fun doing something else. WoW is and always has been very casual, its all about handing people power, some things you have to work for and others you don't.

Only people really crying are the end game exploiters who can't sit in town afk for the next six months "ooh look at me, I has sparkles", get over yourself.

[Sansnom]

Welfare epics is never a good idea. I think Blizzard gets that, but they have to keep some welfare ways to obtain purples for the lesser skilled players. There is no free lunch, no matter how much people think there should be.

So, lesser skilled people doing lesser skilled contents is getting is considered to be getting "Welfare" gear. Where are all these "free" gear that people like you keep branding about that is available?

Why is there this deep deep deep desire to introduce segregation, classes, labels etc to people simply because they do not fit in your ideal image of a raider?

[Renathras]

The dungeon sets weren't the same level of the raid sets though.

I don't have a negative view of casuals, I have a negative view of casuals that want things handed to them and that is exactly what LFR is, a gear vending machine that costs next to nothing. Flex is a far better way to actually progress in the raiding scene and see real content while having fun, it isn't difficult requires next to no progression but you can't afk or troll in it. Flex isn't having the tier/trinkets taken away and it is not even close to as hard to find groups for as people like to think.

Well, I tanked in it (now heal more). Yes, I will accept your condolences. Honestly, other than one or two DPS meter witches that try to start shit, most people try and if someone will shut up the troublemakers (being a tank helps tremendously with shutting up people like that...)

Gotta say, I've never AFKed a run. I do my best to make it work so I can see the fight and story and get a shot at gear.

My employ is such that I don't have a set schedule or extended time for raid guilds. So LFR is what I have. I did get some lug action in 4.2 with Firelands rep grinding, but other than that, I need activities I can do in relatively small chunks. That's why I used to like crafted epics like from BC when I could make the Tailoring sets on my Mage.

Dungeon Sets were different, you're right - you might notice they no longer are in the game. They were treated as proto-tier, they were sets, they took effort (but not raiding) to earn, and modern WoW has no equivalent.

What I've wanted to see for a Joe are alternate sets of gear for different types of gameplay. For example, raiding P E has some pretty set standards for set bonuses - mostly overall DPS increases. Gear from 5 mans or crafting or soloing could all be set up to provide different benefits to the types of gameplay they come from, like how PvP gear is itemized and bonused for P P instead.

But I don't know who these legions of LFR AFKers are, but I don't seem to meet them.

I meet noobs and bads some, yeah...and a lot of casuals and gearing raiders or alts...but AFKers? Not many. And they tend to get kicked quickly. Kicked = no loot.

.

As for people with negative views of casuals - look at every post Stone has made. See how he's insisting anyone that does LFR sucks at the game or is just making excuses and wants things handed to them for free? I've been in some pretty painful LFR runs. "Free" is not the word I'd use to describe groups that have to get several stacks of determination and talk out strategies to beat Nazgrim.

And you are doing it yourself, btw - did you notice your own implication? That all LFR players afk for loot?

Consider for a moment how absurd that is - 25 people asking...how is the boss dying? And if it's just two tanks, three healers, and 3 dos - they can be the best geared players pushing #1 on world of logs - it'll still hit the enrage timer and be a wipe.

I honestly don't understand this mentality, this core assumption that, somehow, 25 people go into LFR, they all go AFK, and then magically the bosses die and all these bads get showered with free loot. I've never SEEN that happen myself.

If that's how your LFR runs go, I need to join your groups - apparently I'm doing things horribly wrong, lol

[Deleted]

Because people like this are shallow, pathetic shells who reduce their entire life to a succeeding in a fantasy world with very strict rules. It's why they get SO agitated when those rules change - because it breaks their illusion of control. You never see these kinds of posts from even-tempered, mature gamers, because they know it's a GAME. /facepalm

Nah, it's just that having content that teaches lesser skilled players nothing at all is such a dumb feature.

''Let lesser skilled players do lesser hard content without any learning factor and be rewarded things.''

No. Bad players should be teached and they should feel the urge to attack harder content for better items because they want to become better.

[Jaylock]

So, lesser skilled people doing lesser skilled contents is getting is considered to be getting "Welfare" gear. Where are all these "free" gear that people like you keep branding about that is available?

Why is there this deep deep deep desire to introduce segregation, classes, labels etc to people simply because they do not fit in your ideal image of a raider?

The really good thing about this change is that we will be able to visually see weather a player is a raider or not by the gear they are wearing now. Before, you would have to inspect them, know which color scheme was for what level of raid they did, and more often than not, inspecting someone only to see "Raid Finder" in their gear was a major let down.

Now we dont have to worry about that because we can just look at them and know weather or not we should bring them to our raids if we need an extra person.

Its going to be like it was back in TBC where you knew a player was good simply by the raid gear they were wearing.

[lupii]

We also had the magic of "Welfare Epics" in BC, aka Arena gear that you could buy for honour... This is not a new thing!

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The really good thing about this change is that we will be able to visually see weather a player is a raider or not by the gear they are wearing now. Before, you would have to inspect them, know which color scheme was for what level of raid they did, and more often than not, inspecting someone only to see "Raid Finder" in their gear was a major let down.

Now we dont have to worry about that because we can just look at them and know weather or not we should bring them to our raids if we need an extra person.

Its going to be like it was back in TBC where you knew a player was good simply by the raid gear they were wearing.

Because being exclusionary in a Massively-Multiplayer-Online-Roleplaying-Game is always healthy. We need more ways to enter Raiding,not more excuses to exclude people from raiding.

[saucywench]

I just want the fucking stupid term "welfare epics" to die in a fire.

Just because there are routes to obtain lesser gear it isn't welfare. You still have to earn it. Admittedly, the bar for getting it is considerably lower than normal or heroic mode raiding, but there is work involved. From the time it took to level to 90 to gearing up (no matter how fast) through Timeless Isle and then through wipes in LFR until you finally get all that shiny item level 528 gear you earned it.

Stop trying to label it. Stop trying to make people feel bad about themselves because they're not raiding heroic modes 24/7. Just stop. You're the cause of such a shitty community. You're the one making it bad.

Thank you for saying that, I just want to hug you

[Jaylock]

We also had the magic of "Welfare Epics" in BC, aka Arena gear that you could buy for honour... This is not a new thing!

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Because being exclusionary in a Massively-Multiplayer-Online-Roleplaying-Game is always healthy. We need more ways to enter Raiding,not more excuses to exclude people from raiding.

Its not an excuse to exclude people, its a way of identifying who is good and who may be not so good.

If a person only has "raid finder" gear on, chances are they are a person who's commitment and dedication to the game is lacking. Sure they may want to dabble in the higher forms of raiding at times, and good for them. However, like i said before, if you can simply identify a person through their raid gear, and they have real current expansion tier sets on, you have a pretty good idea that they are a decent player because:

a) they have experience killing the boss that actually has mechanics they need to follow

b) were good enough to be given a piece of gear from the raid group after killing that boss

Raid finder does not give anyone a good idea of what real raiding is because the mechanics are so watered down.

Plus, it gives the casuals who would like to get into higher mode raiding eye candy to desire to actually put some effort in. The gear is there, the content is there, they just have to go out and get it.

[Deleted]

The really good thing about this change is that we will be able to visually see weather a player is a raider or not by the gear they are wearing now. Before, you would have to inspect them, know which color scheme was for what level of raid they did, and more often than not, inspecting someone only to see "Raid Finder" in their gear was a major let down. Now we dont have to worry about that because we can just look at them and know weather or not we should bring them to our raids if we need an extra person.

yeah, cause gear = skill - right! NOT! no wonder noone wants to raid with JAY-how-far-can-I-go-till-I-get-LOCKed-again

Because being exclusionary in a Massively-Multiplayer-Online-Roleplaying-Game is always healthy. We need more ways to enter Raiding,not more excuses to exclude people from raiding.

Yeah, but for that they would have to kill the ilevel crap again....

[Jaylock]

yeah, cause gear = skill - right! NOT! no wonder noone wants to raid with JAY-how-far-can-I-go-till-I-get-LOCKed-again

Yeah, but for that they would have to kill the ilevel crap again....

Gear was a pretty good indicator of skill in TBC. I would rather invite someone who was wearing tier 5 gear, over someone who was wearing kara gear if I wanted to have them join me in tier 5 content. Isnt that self explanatory?

[lupii]

Its not an excuse to exclude people, its a way of identifying who is good and who may be not so good.

If a person only has "raid finder" gear on, chances are they are a person who's commitment and dedication to the game is lacking. Sure they may want to dabble in the higher forms of raiding at times, and good for them. However, like i said before, if you can simply identify a person through their raid gear, and they have real current expansion tier sets on, you have a pretty good idea that they are a decent player because:

a) they have experience killing the boss that actually has mechanics they need to follow

b) were good enough to be given a piece of gear from the raid group after killing that boss

Raid finder does not give anyone a good idea of what real raiding is because the mechanics are so watered down.

Plus, it gives the casuals who would like to get into higher mode raiding eye candy to desire to actually put some effort in. The gear is there, the content is there, they just have to go out and get it.

So the biggest fallacy is this: If someone has raid finder gear, and they want to aspire to better, and any and every raid guild looks at their gear and scoffs (because clearly they havent put the time/effort into it) then how are they supposed to obtain that "eyecandy"? Its a catch 22.

[cabyio]

Flex 1 and 3 pugs can also be fine. Flex 2 if you're in the mood for it.

If you try to color outside those lines then there can be some pretty sorry experiences in store for you.

Oh god, not the Flex 4 is hard bull again. :S

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I disagree completely. Casuals run flex. Whatever you want to call the severely underperforming players is fine by me, but they can still run LFR. They just don't get tier, and rightfully so. This is a game, an mmo, not a Christian convention promoting equality.

Ha, Christians promoting equality? Can't...stop...laughing....

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Blizzard ***SHOULD*** have put 536 heirlooms on Garrosh LFR. People would work to get there and it would be different. But as it stands SoO LFR 4 is the worst thing that has ever been in the history of LFR. BY FAR.

Bull if you want heirlooms you are more than free to do flex+ and get them.

[Katchii]

I never liked the term welfare epic, especially in WotLK and Cata, because the player did have to work for the item...it wasn't given to them. An argument could be made for LFR epics because it is possible for people to AFK through that and get loot, but if the player actively participates in LFR it's still something they worked for and didn't get handed to them.

Anyway, MMOs are always an ongoing iterative process, so yes I do believe that Blizzard will feel things out in the future and see how it resonates with the playerbase and adjust accordingly.

[cabyio]

Again, that doesn't work for everyone because these groups that advertise in openraid chat are seldom in need of a <528 geared DPS. And good luck if you've never cleared Flex before.

You honestly have zero ability to empathize.

So maybe work a bit harder and get your damn ilvl up. Its not hard with 535 timeless stuff, tier off celestials, legendary cloak that you should already have, ordos warforged gear...

[Jaylock]

So the biggest fallacy is this: If someone has raid finder gear, and they want to aspire to better, and any and every raid guild looks at their gear and scoffs (because clearly they havent put the time/effort into it) then how are they supposed to obtain that "eyecandy"? Its a catch 22.

They find a guild that is on their level trying to progress into normal / heroic raiding (which is flex / normal today). Why should someone be carried just because they "aspire" to get into that content? The logical progression for them is to find like minded players who want to progress together. And there are plenty of people who have "starter" guilds that invite lesser geared players to begin learning real raiding.

You see, thats the exact mentality that is fucking harmful to the game. "Oh I would love to get into higher raiding, but I dont want to do the effort of wiping and learning with a starter guild, so im going to see if i can get carried in a guild that already has the boss encounters on farm." then they dont get into a guild like that and come and cry and whine on the forums that raiders are "elitist," "assholes," "<insert any other rude or derogatory term for raiders here>" when really they just dont want to bring someone who is not experienced on the content their guild is currently clearing, and they want players whos gear is capable of actually helping their guild.

If a person really wants to break the barrier from LFR to real raiding, they can. You and other people like you think that you are the "little guy" you are being treated "unfairly," but really you are just holding yourself back because you are unwilling to make the effort to get to where you want to go.

[Deleted]

Gear was a pretty good indicator of skill in TBC. I would rather invite someone who was wearing tier 5 gear, over someone who was wearing kara gear if I wanted to have them join me in tier 5 content. Isnt that self explanatory?

and that is exactly the problem with todays wow - people like you who want to be caried and creating ilevel 550 needed for 530 content - if all people like you left wow it would be fine.

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Bull if you want heirlooms you are more than free to do flex+ and get them.

right and after 6 month of flex you would probably have goten ZERO....

[Jaylock]

and that is exactly the problem with todays wow - people like you who want to be caried and creating ilevel 550 needed for 530 content - if all people like you left wow it would be fine.

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right and after 6 month of flex you would probably have goten ZERO....

How is wanting appropriate gear for the appropriate raids wanting to be "carried?" Do you not understand that in pick up groups, the reason people ask for those gear levels (although I would agree sometimes they are outrageously unnecessarily high), is because to compensate for the lack of coordination random pick ups inevitably dont have? A person whos gear matches or is close to matching the type of gear found in those raids has a higher chance of not dying, and the group has a higher chance of killing the boss. I would have thought that was common sense by now.

And for pick up groups the goal is to not have to reteach people who have no clue what they are doing and wipe on stuff that the leader has probably killed several times already.

If a LFR geared player is expecting to join groups like that, that sounds to me like they are the ones entitled because they expect people to be "nice" and "inclusive" and carry them to gear. It doesn't work that way.