Welfare Tier Sets

[Lyllian]

I will never understand people that say stuff like this.

They try to act hardcore, say they represent the majority of players, and they can't even get their history right. The OP says welfare epics started in Wrath...then ends by saying Blizzard is going back to Wrath and that this is a good thing(?)

Either way, you're wrong - BC is when "welfare epics started. You could PvP for sets that were functional for the raid tier below them (skipping progression), BS/LW/Tailoring could make partial epic sets, Engineers epic helms, and Heroic 5mans awarded an epic from the final boss. Then, of course, came Emblems of Justice.

Actually you have got it wrong, 'Welfare epics' were introduced towards the end of vanilla wow. Firstly when Blizzard allowed people to farm them from the world event with the Naxramas patch and subsequently tier 2 equivalent pvp epics were easily farmable with the final pre-TBC patch. All of my alts went into TBC in full epics, something that has only happened in one other expansion, Cataclysm.

[Aboubacar]

Everything you said is personal anecdotal evidence, that seems to be highly exaggerated.
Tanks spending 10 mins to pull the boss, really?

It's pretty obvious you don't actually run LFR, or do so very sparingly.

Yes, it's my personal experience, but a frequent occurrence in my experience that LFR is a higher time commitment than the higher difficulties at this point in the expansion. It's definitely not an exaggeration, if you don't believe me try it yourself. I've presented far more evidance than you did regardless, considering most of what you've been talking about is what you think "work" means and disputing that when the actual definition is right there.

[Theendgamelv3]

Well when I am binge watching a show, sometimes I get hungry so I go and prepare a snack, or I occasionally scratch my butt. That isnt work. Now imagine if I was trying to set the world record for longest TV watching ever. I cannot take my eyes off the screen for 48 hours straight. That is work.

The first scenario is similar to LFR. Both are casual, and I can calmly do the task at hand, without actually putting in what I would call "work".
The 2nd scenario is similar to heroics.

I disagree, if you do 50k dps and you're actively are trying to be good, that is still work. People can do jobs and tasks poorly, that doesn't mean they aren't working. To me not putting effort in LFR is basically auto attacking and that is it. Example, I build a house and it took me a long time to do it and a contractor sees and says that is the worst house ever due my lack of knowledge on how to build a house. It took effort and work, it is the job was bad cause I don't know how to build a house.

[Normie]

It's pretty obvious you don't actually run LFR, or do so very sparingly.

Yes, it's my personal experience, but a frequent occurrence in my experience that LFR is a higher time commitment than the higher difficulties at this point in the expansion. It's definitely not an exaggeration, if you don't believe me try it yourself. I've presented far more evidance than you did regardless, considering most of what you've been talking about is what you think "work" means and disputing that when the actual definition is right there.

I've stuck to the "runestones" wings the past month or so and have been fine for the most part. Lots of 100-200k dps in ToT these days. Not as many, ironically, in SoO.

Flex 1 and 3 pugs can also be fine. Flex 2 if you're in the mood for it.

If you try to color outside those lines then there can be some pretty sorry experiences in store for you.

- - - Updated - - -

All of my alts went into TBC in full epics, something that has only happened in one other expansion, Cataclysm.

Shit, dude, if you had a SINGLE max-level alt, as in, if you had TWO max-level characters, that put you in sub 5 percent of the population at the end of Vanilla.

[Mormolyce]

It should not exist to force others to do it for the tier sets.

Good thing it doesn't.

[stomination]

I'm stressed about it because it upsets me that people think that because they're normal/heroic raiders that only they should have the privilege of gear or a look at the raid instance and want to take away content from everyone else.

No one is losing content. Its all there for anyone to go get.

[seta-san]

I'd prefer if LFR could still have tier set art, just without the set bonus, if that would make higher ups happy. If I miss out on completing my set before the guild moves on to the next tier, I just won't be able to get the look anymore. Even BC had welfare Tier gear look alikes, in season 1-3 armor sets.

Lfr was my favorite way of progressing. I let my my sub lapse for the fist time since BC for reasons other than finances because flex basically killed LFR. Before it was something that I could casually enjoy. Now it's nothing but a wipefest and not fun. Because of choices like this.. This is the first xpac I just won't buy.

[Aboubacar]

I've stuck to the "runestones" wings the past month or so and have been fine for the most part. Lots of 100-200k dps in ToT these days. Not as many, ironically, in SoO.

Flex 1 and 3 pugs can also be fine. Flex 2 if you're in the mood for it.

If you try to color outside those lines then there can be some pretty sorry experiences in store for you.

So you only do p4 ToT and p1 SoO? I'm talking about the time commitment for a full clear of either, which is pretty bad, especially if you include queue times.

p1 ToT usually gets demolished by Council of Elders, p2 is okay because i always do nests, can solo on my shitty alts even, p3 dark animus, p4 is usually fine. Seige it can take 2 hours to clear the last section, garrosh is still very hard for LFR folks, always goes to 5+ stacks. Even in ToT these tanks are in no hurry as I said, they like to stare at bosses for 5+ min before they pull it for w/e reasons

[llewllew]

Call it what it is: Bliz retrenching to reassure its hardcore addict playerbase that it knows where its bread is buttered. This is a tacit acknowledgement by Bliz that it can keep WoW profitable indefinitely by catering to an ever-smaller group of hardcores. In 2024, Bliz will still be throwing "exclusive" mounts and titles at the 100,000 hardcores who still shell out 15 bucks a month to get told how special they are.

"Oh, baby. You're so special. You're the elite. The very best. Only you deserve these sparkling pixels. Tell me again how much you love me. No, I mean, tell me with another 15 bucks."

[Darsithis]

Call it what it is: Bliz retrenching to reassure its hardcore addict playerbase that it knows where its bread is buttered. This is a tacit acknowledgement by Bliz that it can keep WoW profitable indefinitely by catering to an ever-smaller group of hardcores. In 2024, Bliz will still be throwing "exclusive" mounts and titles at the 100,000 hardcores who still shell out 15 bucks a month to get told how special they are.

"Oh, baby. You're so special. You're the elite. The very best. Only you deserve these sparkling pixels. Tell me again how much you love me. No, I mean, tell me with another 15 bucks."

Now that's just ridiculous.

[emni]

So you only do p4 ToT and p1 SoO? I'm talking about the time commitment for a full clear of either, which is pretty bad, especially if you include queue times.

p1 ToT usually gets demolished by Council of Elders, p2 is okay because i always do nests, can solo on my shitty alts even, p3 dark animus, p4 is usually fine. Seige it can take 2 hours to clear the last section, garrosh is still very hard for LFR folks, always goes to 5+ stacks. Even in ToT these tanks are in no hurry as I said, they like to stare at bosses for 5+ min before they pull it for w/e reasons

After playing tanks and healers pretty much all of MoP I've now levelled up my old mage and I'm still waiting to experience what everyone seems to rage on the forums about.

Long queue times? DPS queue on Horde side EU is 15 minutes at most. You can queue up for all the SoO parts at once and the second I clear one the next one just pops up.
Tanks taking long to pull? Just ask in chat what's happening, ask if they need help with tactics, be nice. I've never encountered people standing around for absolutely no reason whatsoever.
Wiping on a boss? Try and take control and instruct people with tactics. Don't get mad if they screw up, ask them to do it differently next time.

Of course, all of this is anecdotal stuff, but it seems strange to me that my LFR experience seems to be so much better than that of so many people complaining on the forums. Maybe the common factor here is you.

[Aboubacar]

After playing tanks and healers pretty much all of MoP I've now levelled up my old mage and I'm still waiting to experience what everyone seems to rage on the forums about.

Long queue times? DPS queue on Horde side EU is 15 minutes at most. You can queue up for all the SoO parts at once and the second I clear one the next one just pops up.
Tanks taking long to pull? Just ask in chat what's happening, ask if they need help with tactics, be nice. I've never encountered people standing around for absolutely no reason whatsoever.
Wiping on a boss? Try and take control and instruct people with tactics. Don't get mad if they screw up, ask them to do it differently next time.

Of course, all of this is anecdotal stuff, but it seems strange to me that my LFR experience seems to be so much better than that of so many people complaining on the forums. Maybe the common factor here is you.

if there wasn't 40min-1hr queue times during late night in U.S. Horde the 1hr for each seige section (except p4 seige, thats the really bad one) this wouldn't be a big deal. I don't queue for this stuff at peak times. I raid farm w/ guild at normal times, then when I can't sleep i work on alts for cloak or something, get them geared for flex/normal runs. Also early morning is completely pointless too. Worse hours often gets worse players or more bots as well/

also idk about helping w/ tactics, generally you will get people that argue with it, but not always that bad. The best example I can give is Council of Elders LFR and people just trying to burn sul w/o the dps to do it, not switching to the empowered boss. Idk that boss is usually pretty shit w/ high determination stacks. garrosh usually has a lot of drama too in raid chat. I don't really talk to people in lfrs.

[Seezer]

Call it what it is: Bliz retrenching to reassure its hardcore addict playerbase that it knows where its bread is buttered. This is a tacit acknowledgement by Bliz that it can keep WoW profitable indefinitely by catering to an ever-smaller group of hardcores. In 2024, Bliz will still be throwing "exclusive" mounts and titles at the 100,000 hardcores who still shell out 15 bucks a month to get told how special they are.

"Oh, baby. You're so special. You're the elite. The very best. Only you deserve these sparkling pixels. Tell me again how much you love me. No, I mean, tell me with another 15 bucks."

Call what what it is? A nutjob conspiracy theory?

[Terminal Lance]

I don't know why but I just read about 11 pages worth of drama between Stonecloak and Yarathir.

Didn't know Auron could be such a condescending prick, lol.

OT... wow I forgot the OT. Oh yes, "welfare epics". Easy to get? Yes. Effort? Ofcourse. You can't just log in and literally do NOTHING. I'm a hardcore 'casual' (lol) and even though I've not raided past LFR I still put time and effort on my shammy, who's now at a reasonable iLv550, which took 3+ months of gearing and not afk'ing.
Effort can also mean having patience.

Infracted - flaming is not tolerated here

[emni]

if there wasn't 40min-1hr queue times during late night in U.S. Horde the 1hr for each seige section (except p4 seige, thats the really bad one) this wouldn't be a big deal. I don't queue for this stuff at peak times. I raid farm w/ guild at normal times, then when I can't sleep i work on alts for cloak or something, get them geared for flex/normal runs. Also early morning is completely pointless too. Worse hours often gets worse players or more bots as well/

I don't queue at peak times either, but I guess things are better on the European side. You say you have a guild though, so why not ask one of the healers to just queue you in and leave? The only reason I don't have that option is because all my friends and my raiding guild is Alliance while my mage is Horde.

[Deleted]

I just want the fucking stupid term "welfare epics" to die in a fire.

Just because there are routes to obtain lesser gear it isn't welfare. You still have to earn it. Admittedly, the bar for getting it is considerably lower than normal or heroic mode raiding, but there is work involved. From the time it took to level to 90 to gearing up (no matter how fast) through Timeless Isle and then through wipes in LFR until you finally get all that shiny item level 528 gear you earned it.

Stop trying to label it. Stop trying to make people feel bad about themselves because they're not raiding heroic modes 24/7. Just stop. You're the cause of such a shitty community. You're the one making it bad.

I`m agree with you!!!!
Especially when in every "hate" reply`s ppl says that is far more easy and fast to do flex/normal than LFR so folowing the logic on OP blizz should also to disable Sets in Normal/Heroic coz hey they are easy to be obtain

[emni]

also idk about helping w/ tactics, generally you will get people that argue with it, but not always that bad. The best example I can give is Council of Elders LFR and people just trying to burn sul w/o the dps to do it, not switching to the empowered boss. Idk that boss is usually pretty shit w/ high determination stacks. garrosh usually has a lot of drama too in raid chat. I don't really talk to people in lfrs.

Well, you admit yourself that you do not communicate in LFRs and try to turn the group around, so I'm honestly not surprised that your experience suffers. I have a strong dislike of this mentality where people just act like silent passengers and then complain when things don't go their way. I always volunteer to do tactics, I mark Paragon kill order, I kill the Engineers on Garrosh (if I'm ranged). It feels hypocritical to me to be a part of the problem (i.e. not communicating and just being there along for the ride) and then complaining how shit LFR is.

Be the change you want to be.

[Myzou]

What I don't get:

Why did they remove tier completely? Why didn't they just make it so tier from LFR doesn't activate set bonuses from the Normal and higher tier gear?

That solves everything. LFR players actually get to feel a sense of accomplishment, while not making LFR mandatory for set bonuses for actual raiders while they wait for the appropriate ilvl tier to drop.

Instead, they screw with the casual players to please only one group, rather than do a simple change to please both.

[Stonecloak]

What I don't get:

Why did they remove tier completely? Why didn't they just make it so tier from LFR doesn't activate set bonuses from the Normal and higher tier gear?

That solves everything. LFR players actually get to feel a sense of accomplishment, while not making LFR mandatory for set bonuses for actual raiders while they wait for the appropriate ilvl tier to drop.

Instead, they screw with the casual players to please only one group, rather than do a simple change to please both.

LFR is two groups. One who wants to raid. The others who get carried. The people who actually raid will jump to flex, and the other group will get a very easy version of raiding in LFR. LFR will still gets epics and should be thankful for that. Blizzard isn't trying to please one group. Thats completely narrow sided. There's three organized raiding groups which would be the majority.

[Myzou]

LFR is two groups. One who wants to raid. The others who get carried. The people who actually raid will jump to flex, and the other group will get a very easy version of raiding in LFR. LFR will still gets epics and should be thankful for that. Blizzard isn't trying to please one group. Thats completely narrow sided. There's three organized raiding groups which would be the majority.

You're wrong.

By removing tier from LFR, Blizzard did just please one group. Raiders.

Casuals got screwed.

I want to raid. However, I don't have the time to. I don't care about the new group finder. If the group deems you unacceptable due to ilvl, you'll be kicked before you can even try.

It doesn't matter if the normal mode is tuned for heroic dungeon gear. People will instantly put the ilvl requirement on normal on LFR gear. That's how it's always worked, as the raiders in WoW do that.