SWTOR - Button Bloat

[Tekkommo]

The only dps class with a ton of buttons that I know of is the Marauder and whatever the jedi version is. Most others there are maybe 6-9 or so. Not all that bad.

Sadly that's the character I started playing on again before making this thread. I've moved to my BH now (which was my old main anyway), their rotation is much more sensible.

[Xerra]

You guys realize that if the buttons are useless you can take them off your bar right? I know I did for my lightning sorc, I dont use the melee move and the channeled lightning spell easily tossed aside. You don't need your hand held to get rid of the trash.

[Leih]

You guys realize that if the buttons are useless you can take them off your bar right? I know I did for my lightning sorc, I dont use the melee move and the channeled lightning spell easily tossed aside. You don't need your hand held to get rid of the trash.

There are buttons that are useless 90% of the time but you have to have them keybound in case of that one situation where it comes up. There are buttons which are useless because they all do the same thing, but you have to have all 3 keybound because you have to use them all either at different times or together.

What you say only applies to the replacement abilities - e.g. veiled strike replacing shiv for operatives. That's fine and all - it's needlessly confusing and misleading for new players and the clutter isn't ideal, but it's not a huge problem you can't get around by any means. That's not the only kind of button bloat in this game though

[WarpedAcorn]

There are buttons that are useless 90% of the time but you have to have them keybound in case of that one situation where it comes up.

This is the problem. Commando/Mercenary suffers this the most because over the years SWTOR has answered a lot of the issues with the class by giving them these 1-off abilities. Truthfully, most of these are relegated for PvP situations, and if you're primarily a PvE'er then you can ditch a lot of them.

[RohanV]

This is the problem. Commando/Mercenary suffers this the most because over the years SWTOR has answered a lot of the issues with the class by giving them these 1-off abilities. Truthfully, most of these are relegated for PvP situations, and if you're primarily a PvE'er then you can ditch a lot of them.

Heh, until you hit the one fight where you need them. We were doing NiM Scum and Villany the other day, and I had to rebind Leg Shot to slow the adds on Styrak.

[ItachiZaku]

The problem is, the longer a game lasts, it's hard to avoid button bloat. When you level, if you don't get new abilities, it gets dull. And when you get an expansion, you gain 5-10 levels and you HAVE to get a new ability or 2. They can't pinch lower level things after 4 expansions, cuz then you really feel like you aren't gaining anything.

[Edge-]

The problem is, the longer a game lasts, it's hard to avoid button bloat. When you level, if you don't get new abilities, it gets dull. And when you get an expansion, you gain 5-10 levels and you HAVE to get a new ability or 2. They can't pinch lower level things after 4 expansions, cuz then you really feel like you aren't gaining anything.

It's not terribly difficult to add new versions of existing abilities with improved functionality, so you're still adding a new ability but not increasing the number of keybinds necessary.

Otherwise you end up with something akin to what you see in EQ2 -_-

[Valeron]

^^

what a nightmare

[WarpedAcorn]

Reminds me of a parody I saw about mods where the whole screen was taken up with mods except for a tiny little spec in the middle.

[Edge-]

Reminds me of a parody I saw about mods where the whole screen was taken up with mods except for a tiny little spec in the middle.

http://i.imgur.com/QCk1r.jpg

This one? : P

Would be hard to do this in SWTOR, thankfully. You'd have to make everything huge and drag elements all over your screen.

[WarpedAcorn]

http://i.imgur.com/QCk1r.jpg

This one? : P

Would be hard to do this in SWTOR, thankfully. You'd have to make everything huge and drag elements all over your screen.

Ha! That's basically it!

Thank god I can play SWTOR without any mods. They can get incredibly intrusive. I'm *almost* at the point of just hiding the Ability panels, but as someone who is a former clicker, I have a hard time giving up that security of readily clickable buttons.

[Edge-]

Ha! That's basically it!

Thank god I can play SWTOR without any mods. They can get incredibly intrusive. I'm *almost* at the point of just hiding the Ability panels, but as someone who is a former clicker, I have a hard time giving up that security of readily clickable buttons.

Yeah. Pretty much any MMO that allows for full customization of the UI eliminates most of the need for mods, for me. Being able to re-arrange where everything is, scale it up/down as necessary, and especially if I can have secondary bars/windows disappear while in combat or only appear on mouse hover is pretty much all I need. SWTOR UI is basically identical to my UI in other games, with pretty much all important information stuck at the bottom as unobtrusively as possible so that I can use the remaining like 80%+ of my screen to actually see the game : P

[bloodmoth13]

Well here is an idea, some classes have abilities that basically do the same thing, merge the abilities and put them on charges!
things like mobility double ups or basic "strike target with weapon, deal x damage" type of abilities. those are bloat, abilities with identical use cases should be either merged, pruned or diversified.

Im thinking abilities like hemorrhage and backstab, their use cases are pretty weak, you use hemo once every 24 seconds for marginal dps increase (not even sure if it is an increase) or when you cant use backstab because the spec is clunky. a better use would be making hemo a shorter duration dot for a decent increase (12s?) and backstab usable from front or something.

What they did to arms warriors though was attrocious, that was exactly how to not do it correctly, hamstring is an ability that doesnt need its own button on the other hand.
Making slam a talent, whirlwind your filler and removing overpower made the spec ridiculously bland.

If i were to rework it, id make:
Slam the filler, replace auto attacks with cast time (like old slam) heavy blow that generates a chunk of rage
Mortal strike the spender, dealing HUGE damage, high rage cost (60+?) with a new awesome animation (think grom when he cleaves mannaroths face open)
Rend shorter duration (12-15s?) and some damage on the strike, used for ramping
Overpower comes back as a proc, triggered from either slam or rend (slam will be slow, this would be used to make the spec feel faster at times)
Execute to replace mortal strike in execute range, will hit hard as fuck
colossus smash to prime your mortal strikes
This would make arms feel like the heavy hitter it should with no abilities feeling soft

For Cleave fights (2/3) you would be using the same rotation, but would toggle sweeping strikes on(now a toggle), which makes slam deal 60% damage, but strike up to 3 targets and generate rage of each hit and mortal strike hit multiple targets but deal 60% damage, while multi dotting rend.
Pure aoe (5+) you keep sweeping strikes on and replace mortal strike with whirlwind

This creates different situations where you use different abilities depending on the situation, thats what makes specs interesting, but since arms aoe is identical to single target, there is no variance (other than execute) which makes the spec feel dull.

But thats just my idea.

[Edge-]

Changed the title so folks who see the thread on the front page don't assume it's a WoW thread.

[Lesane]

The problem is, the longer a game lasts, it's hard to avoid button bloat. When you level, if you don't get new abilities, it gets dull. And when you get an expansion, you gain 5-10 levels and you HAVE to get a new ability or 2. They can't pinch lower level things after 4 expansions, cuz then you really feel like you aren't gaining anything.

They can give you passives which renew your playstyle or add some new visuals without having to require extra button presses. SWTOR leveling abilities aren't really that spread out. You basically get overloaded in the early levels and then gain very few abilities for the rest of your leveling. They can easily spread them out a bit more if they're worried about leveling not feeling rewarding enough.

[Fencers]

Yea, I think skill bloat is an issue with the gameplay. There are too many secondary skills- it's all there to give rotations increased complexity but there isn't a interesting happening otherwise.

If I am playing my Sorcerer, I am just throwing lightning around. Having 6 skills that toss lightning bolts at monsters is not exactly blowing my hair back. Three or four of those lightning skills just being necessary for a skill rotation is about as dull as a plastic spoon.

SWTOR would do so well with skill design closer to Diablo 3- a few categorized skills, that have lateral adjustments. Five to six necessary combat buttons would be ideal.

[ItachiZaku]

http://i.imgur.com/QCk1r.jpg

This one? : P

FFS, I can barely keep track of grid on my Rdrooo. And I'm fucking exceptional.

- - - Updated - - -

It's not terribly difficult to add new versions of existing abilities with improved functionality, so you're still adding a new ability but not increasing the number of keybinds necessary.

The Blizz game has been doing this, which I like. Even if it is seemingly "stupid", like Holy Fire. Get it at level 18... level 24 it adds a dot. 30 it adds the heal/atonement aspect. Add that to other spells, and you get the leveling filler. Nerfing but also giving!

I did like my shadow tank having a lot of buttons, felt like I had stuff to do, yet not too much. I missed the self healing period on them.

[cuafpr]

agreed, this is an area they could learn from blizz on and break a pruning into SWTOR. my Sith Jugg has so many its like WTF just press something... and/or ignore that other one cause its pointless.

[WarpedAcorn]

agreed, this is an area they could learn from blizz on and break a pruning into SWTOR. my Sith Jugg has so many its like WTF just press something... and/or ignore that other one cause its pointless.

I decided to push my Guardian first, so yes I can now also relate to the feeling that Jugg/Guardian has too many buttons. My "offensive" bar is officially overflowing. I had to take off Slash for Concentrated Slash (no biggie), but my Riposte is also off as well as the AoE Slash. Those are back to clickies because I am out of comfortable keybinds. Not sure what I'm going to do for the new Blade Blitz...Guess I will need to get used to more keybinds and modifiers. 0.o

[Katchii]

Yeah I'm a little worried about my Guardian/ Juggernaut keybinds. My bars are already full and I'm only level 60, and I use a lot of them pretty often, just because I can..... Guard/Juggs effectively have like 4 interrupts (2-4 depending on the fight and whether push and/ or choke/freeze are usable), it's awesome.

I'll need to take a hard look at my action bars to see what abilities I can relegate to being on the side clicky bar.