The Brexit aftermath thread

[Acidbaron]

Lets talk real world examples then.

Gov. kasich is sense as a less extreme conservative, the opposite of Trump because of ''reasons'' till you look how he governs and that he isn't really all that different in terms of policy. Maybe he would have acted less like a fucking moron but that;s only because that idiot is lowering the bar every time he does something.

Ronmey was seen as ''moderate'' then you read his ''self deportion plan'' and just general vision which again is no different from the extremist.

Just because you have extreme conservatives lowering the bar doesn't make the so called moderates less extremes. When people talk about the ''extreme'' left and how the left lost the middle it's only because the conservatives have gone so far to the right that they expect everybody to find the new ''middle''.

You are aware that by looking at american politics through european eyes, terms as moderate politicians among the conservative party are very few and far in between, they simply do not exist. Moderate conservatives for us are a certain group of democrats, Bill clinton comes to mind. Even by our standards Romney was far from moderate. The entire premise of health care being such a big debate goes beyond us. I'll keep it simple and say i have not seen a moderate conservative the last 2 decades almost in the republican party that has been in the running for the White House, and nowadays there are absolutely none and i would even argue that no policy in there is even remotely conservative and is more based on protecting certain interests and interest groups.

As this is a thread about Europe politics, an european moderate right wing politician what we call a liberal here, Guy Verhofstadt picking a big name also part of the brexit talks to remain more on topic.

Don't try to export your american political divisiveness or partisan thinking over to the EU, you will fail, horribly. We don't have A right wing party, we have multiple, we don't have A left wing party we have multiple, we don't have A center party we have multiple.

[Slant]

Lets talk real world examples then.

Gov. kasich is sense as a less extreme conservative, the opposite of Trump because of ''reasons'' till you look how he governs and that he isn't really all that different in terms of policy. Maybe he would have acted less like a fucking moron but that;s only because that idiot is lowering the bar every time he does something.

Ronmey was seen as ''moderate'' then you read his ''self deportion plan'' and just general vision which again is no different from the extremist.

Just because you have extreme conservatives lowering the bar doesn't make the so called moderates less extremes. When people talk about the ''extreme'' left and how the left lost the middle it's only because the conservatives have gone so far to the right that they expect everybody to find the new ''middle''.

Yes, a political movement is not black and white. This isn't a big surprise. In Europe, we've had this reflected by multiple-party systems for a long while now. It's just England (somewhat) and the US (strongly) that haven't gotten the memo.

This still doesn't mean that Trumpkins and Brexiters are representative of conservatism.

[ati87]

The Left lost the middle because the Right tells the middle what it wants to hear.

The Left expects the middle to vote for them out of some sense of morality and unfortunately, it doesn't work that way in an anonymous voting booth.

But thats really neither here nor there with regards to Brexit, seeing as Brexit is an issue that doesn't really have a Left/Right split despite people constantly trying to force that narrative onto it.

The left expects factual arguments to work vs the right uses fear of XYZ to get votes

Just look at those Eastern Europe like Poland where the government is rallying against Muslims. You could probably count the number of muslims by hand in Poland but just like the Brexit or Trump the current polish government used fear to get votes.

[dribbles]

52% - 48%. Either take your medicine or ditch it, something is very wrong.

No.

Over 80% voted for either conservatives or labour, both of which advocated leaving the EU at the general election, a massive majority indeed.

With many of the cabinet signing up to the latest letter to the PM here... http://www.leavemeansleave.eu/lml-letter-2-pm/ and with the EU failing to accept our generous offer of settlement, it looks like Britain will walk away from the negotiations and the massive majority will get their will fulfilled.

Well done and a big thumbs up for British democracy!

[Acidbaron]

The left expects factual arguments to work vs the right uses fear of XYZ to get votes

Just look at those Eastern Europe like Poland where the government is rallying against Muslims. You could probably count the number of muslims by hand in Poland but just like the Brexit or Trump the current polish government used fear to get votes.

I'm sorry but this is bullshit, absolute bullshit the left uses these tactics also, while not utilizing fear they utilize other emotions. For example it has been noted that during the immigration crisis the right was handing them out stuff like phones and such, while the left was giving them signs with sob stories, the right media displayed only men the left only women. And so forth.

Also you are being intentionally dishonest, you are going to argue that Poland is the moderate conservative base? The nation that has elected officials that call women inferior human beings? The Nation that is being openly critized by the EU, an EU that is for the largest part right leaning?

BOTH SIDES DO IT, you seriously need to learn to get past your thinking in boxes and and absolutes. The world is not this black and white.

[Deleted]

No.

Over 80% voted for either conservatives or labour, both of which advocated leaving the EU at the general election, a massive majority indeed.

With many of the cabinet signing up to the latest letter to the PM here... http://www.leavemeansleave.eu/lml-letter-2-pm/ and with the EU failing to accept our generous offer of settlement, it looks like Britain will walk away from the negotiations and the massive majority will get their will fulfilled.

Well done and a big thumbs up for British democracy!

So Floppa doesn't know maths, and you don't know politics?

People voted for the two major parties in the UK in the general elections, not for Brexit. The Brexit vote was 52% - 48%.

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The left expects factual arguments to work vs the right uses fear of XYZ to get votes

Just look at those Eastern Europe like Poland where the government is rallying against Muslims. You could probably count the number of muslims by hand in Poland but just like the Brexit or Trump the current polish government used fear to get votes.

Actually, the far left also use fear to get votes in Europe. Some far left parties are as nationalists as the far right.

Examples: Greece's Syriza and the French Jean-Luc Melenchon.

[Floopa]

So Floppa doesn't know maths, and you don't know politics?

People voted for the two major parties in the UK in the general elections, not for Brexit. The Brexit vote was 52% - 48%.

no the general election was about BREXIT.

liberal democrats opposed it, and got a very minor share of the vote. CON/LAB/UKIP pledged to carry out the will of the people and got 85% of the vote.

85% is an overwhelming majority.

[caervek]

a 4% lead is huge.

It really isn't, especially when it was pretty much entirely down to skewed turnout.

in the last GE, conservatives won 42% of the vote and labour won 40% of the vote. conservatives have almost 60 more seats in parliament than labour do.

That's because seats aren't allocated by votes, if they were the conservatives would only have 13 more.

[Deleted]

no the general election was about BREXIT.

liberal democrats opposed it, and got a very minor share of the vote. CON/LAB/UKIP pledged to carry out the will of the people and got 85% of the vote.

85% is an overwhelming majority.

It was about May's attempt to get more strenght for the Brexit negotiation, something that she completely failed.

Really, this history revisionism doesn't get your narrative anywhere.

[Mayhem]

no the general election was about BREXIT.

No it wasn't. Brexit was already up and running as article 50 was already invoked. Don't be that stupid, please.

[ati87]

I'm sorry but this is bullshit, absolute bullshit the left uses these tactics also, while not utilizing fear they utilize other emotions. For example it has been noted that during the immigration crisis the right was handing them out stuff like phones and such, while the left was giving them signs with sob stories, the right media displayed only men the left only women. And so forth.

Also you are being intentionally dishonest, you are going to argue that Poland is the moderate conservative base? The nation that has elected officials that call women inferior human beings? The Nation that is being openly critized by the EU, an EU that is for the largest part right leaning?

BOTH SIDES DO IT, you seriously need to learn to get past your thinking in boxes and and absolutes. The world is not this black and white.

Oh come on warning people of the dangers of for example leaving the EU wasn't god dam fearmongering, the British economy is already lagging while the UK hasn't even left the EU. The fear of leaving is already causing damage

Those sob stories are actual stories of people.....it's the story on the ground and aren't made up

VS

Turkish people are going to rape you're women
Polish people are stealing you're jobs
EU is a dictatorship

It's not the same.

[dribbles]

It was about May's attempt to get more strenght for the Brexit negotiation, something that she completely failed.

Really, this history revisionism doesn't get your narrative anywhere.

The facts are that at the time of the Brexit referendum 52% voted to exit, the election was called to strengthen the British leave position and as such the leave side increased its percentage from 52% to over 80%. Job done. What bit don't you get?

[ati87]

no the general election was about BREXIT.

liberal democrats opposed it, and got a very minor share of the vote. CON/LAB/UKIP pledged to carry out the will of the people and got 85% of the vote.

85% is an overwhelming majority.

May tried to make it about Brexit to get her own party fully behind her and in turn it became a election about her

Brexit itself was hardly something people used to determine who to vote for because freaking May doesn't even know what she wanted at that time still doesn't.

BUt I think you know this deep down at least, but it's hard for you to accept that so in you're own mind you have to say ''my side won this big'' or else you can't life with the idea that you're idea's are shit and that people actually don't support you're twisted worldview.

[Deleted]

The left expects factual arguments to work vs the right uses fear of XYZ to get votes

Just look at those Eastern Europe like Poland where the government is rallying against Muslims. You could probably count the number of muslims by hand in Poland but just like the Brexit or Trump the current polish government used fear to get votes.

The Left uses fear plenty, just peddles it in different ways.

I'm sick of people pretending one side is better than the other.

[Acidbaron]

Oh come on warning people of the dangers of for example leaving the EU wasn't god dam fearmongering, the British economy is already lagging while the UK hasn't even left the EU. The fear of leaving is already causing damage

Those sob stories are actual stories of people.....it's the story on the ground and aren't made up

VS

Turkish people are going to rape you're women
Polish people are stealing you're jobs
EU is a dictatorship

It's not the same.

It's propelling lies and playing on emotions it's the same thing. Also nobody is going to take you serious if you keep this notion up that right wing on the entire globe are one big hive mind, if you want to paint the world this black and white go ahead, it might make you feel better about yourself but it won't make it true. Even looking at the Brexit, the UK and their conservative party there has been no consensus or unanimous support for the brexit within their own ranks.

Far right targets immigrants as tools for electoral gain, not all the right majority even does not.
Right wing again is not opposed to the EU, you have those in favor, those highly skeptical of it and a small faction opposed of this, you can look up the ratio's by looking at the EU parliament seats.

The left is actually hurting refugees with telling them to go for sob stories, as they are often caught those lies and denied access based on uncertainty of all the background they have told.

The left would have you often believe we are leaving refugees to their fate, while often the refugees themselves refuse aid as to obtain aid they need to file for refugee status in that nation they are present but they often want to travel through, i am also not speaking of refusing to request asylum in some nation with lower standards, i'm speaking of their refusal to do this in nations like my own, Germany, France and so forth. The left therefor presents pictures of pregnant women and try to shame us into saying that look what we are doing to those poor folk while they could easily get support even without requesting asylum but they often simply refuse it out of fear that they might get send back, who do you think put that lie into their heads?

Also do not even get me started about the widespread corruption present in the ranks of european socialists, where they struggle to clean their own house for more than a decade since it all came out. It's the reason why new left leaning parties do far better.

So this picture of the left being a paragon of all that's good in society is absolute horse shit and you would have to hold very narrow view of the world to simply see the faults in one side. It makes you no better than a person blindly supporting trump, an alt righter really.

[Deleted]

I don't know where this idea that the Tories are all pro Leave came from, the former leader of the Conservative party was the one in charge of the Remain campaign for gods sakes.

Stop trying to force the Brexit debate into a Left vs Right debate to make it easier for you to understand.

[ati87]

The facts are that at the time of the Brexit referendum 52% voted to exit, the election was called to strengthen the British leave position and as such the leave side increased its percentage from 52% to over 80%. Job done. What bit don't you get?

HAHAHA...seriously? People say to believe in god you don't need science or facts you need faith

But what the fuck do we call people that believe this? You honestly think that brexit had at time of the snap election almost doubled it's support? You must be smoking some really good shit you're smoking because I don't think anybody believes that the brexit camp is stronger now then the daya the referendum

[dribbles]

I don't know where this idea that the Tories are all pro Leave came from, the former leader of the Conservative party was the one in charge of the Remain campaign for gods sakes.

Stop trying to force the Brexit debate into a Left vs Right debate to make it easier for you to understand.

Corbyn is one of the most enthusiastic Brexiteers there are, being opposed to the EU for 40 years. The day after the referendum he was outside parliament demanding an immediate serving of Article 50.

The EU (Notification of Withdrawal) Bill passed in parliament by 76% of eligible voters, the left and right with regard to Brexit are united as is the country. Just a few shrilling remoaners keep crying, sore losers I guess.

[Vankrys]

exactly. brexit is about wisdom vs naivety, mind vs soul.

leave voters displayed admirable courage by choosing mind over soul, and by enacting their wisdom over the naive remoaners who wanted the status quo to remain the same.

that's actually quite the contrary.

The leave vote was a passionate vote, not a reasoned one. People were fed with speech of sovereignty, self governance, forging their own laws, their own society. A big point, maybe not for you, but for the majority of leave voters, was to control the border and shut down the immigration from eastern europe. It's a "Britain for the British" kind of attitude.

The remain vote was the wisdom choice. Accepting to surrender some of your national controls (such as custom, borders, defense, etc...) to let higher European institutes (which the UK was a prominent member and could still sway some control over it) decide on those matter. In exchange, you are part of a bigger whole, get access to EU free market and workforce, and quite frankly, 40 years under the EU umbrella, the UK economy grew quite well from the 70s.

It's a mimic of the society of men in a way. To accept to live in society, you surrendering some liberties, in exchange of safety and prosperity. For example, you accept the authority of the law enforcement agencies, you accept to pay tax, you accept the rule of society, but in return, you benefit from that society as well.

UK will learn there is strength in numbers, they won't be able to negotiate beneficial deals, with either the EU or the rest of the world, by isolating themselves. The UK did commit economical suicide.

[Mafic]

exactly. brexit is about wisdom vs naivety, mind vs soul.

leave voters displayed admirable courage by choosing mind over soul, and by enacting their wisdom over the naive remoaners who wanted the status quo to remain the same.

I agree.

Nationalistic pride often transcends political boundaries which is why Brexit was a beautiful thing to watch occur. The only downside that has been talked about is less scientific collaboration but then again scientists don't view their work via political boundaries. So scientific collaboration post Brexit will continue so the only true hurdle toward Brexit is an economic one.

That makes sense because the formation of the EU originally was for economic reasons. The Eu has deviated so much from that it is now acting like a governing body and Brexit was the logical next step to move away from an EU governing body.

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that's actually quite the contrary.

The leave vote was a passionate vote, not the reasoned one. People were fed with speech of sovereignty, self governance, forging their own laws, their own society. A big point, maybe not for you, but for the majority of leave voters, was to control the border and shut the immigration from eastern europe. It's a "britain for the british" kind of attitude.

The remain vote was the wisdom choice. Accepting to surrender some of your national control (such as custom, border, defense, etc...) to let higher european institute (which the UK was a prominent member and could still sway some control over it) decide on those matter. In exchange, you are part of a bigger whole, get access to EU free market and workforce, and quite frankly, 40 years under the EU umbrella, the UK economy grew quite well from the 70s.

It's a mimic of the society of men in a way. To accept to leave in society, you surrendering some liberties, in exchange of safety and prosperity. For example, you accept the authority of the law enforcement agency, you accept to pay tax, you accept the rule of society, but in return, you benefit from that society as well.

UK will learn there is strength in number, they won't be able to negotiate beneficial deal, with either the EU or the rest of the world, by isolating themselves. The UK committed economical suicide.

How is remaining a wise choice other than economic reasons? You argue it is wisdom but if you look beyond economic reasons people argued for passion reasons as well to stay.

So the side that was more passionate than the other won. That is easy to understand.

Arguing there is no logic or wisdom for being in favor or brexit seems to be taking a narrow focus on geopolitics.