Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Hey, I just pointed out that priest mages existed, so being a follower to the light is not tied to being a priest or a paladin.

In fact, human peasants can believe in the light and go to church and all, and never ever be a priest. It's just an spiritual thing in which if you delve enough, you can end up being somebody in the ranks of the organization.

Oh I agree with you, I was mostly going on in relationship to the whole reply telephone.

They didn't limit golden eyes to class color because while it's informed by the classes with the most practical use of their belief, it's at the core a belief/faith issue that exists beyond playable class.

I could only perhaps say they could have limited warlocks to it.

[Aldo Hawk]

Oh I agree with you, I was mostly going on in relationship to the whole reply telephone.

They didn't limit golden eyes to class color because while it's informed by the classes with the most practical use of their belief, it's at the core a belief/faith issue that exists beyond playable class.

I could only perhaps say they could have limited warlocks to it.

Well, the case of warlocks sound strange, but in the most part I would not see fel resisting holy light, given we have seen the holy light being a good tool to cleanse fel, so a sin'dorei warlock who follows the light could have a great advantage in that the light from the Sunwell would cleanse most of the residual energies from the fel magic they use, resulting in a reduction of the damage it could cause to their bodies (although this would be more the case with inexperienced warlocks but you get the idea). But overall, I don't see why one can't happen with the other.

But yeah, sounds strange.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Well, the case of warlocks sound strange, but in the most part I would not see fel resisting holy light, given we have seen the holy light being a good tool to cleanse fel, so a sin'dorei warlock who follows the light could have a great advantage in that the light from the Sunwell would cleanse most of the residual energies from the fel magic they use, resulting in a reduction of the damage it could cause to their bodies (although this would be more the case with inexperienced warlocks but you get the idea). But overall, I don't see why one can't happen with the other.

But yeah, sounds strange.

I mean yeah, it can be justified even if it is on a self-contradictory way -but like, a glutton for punishment kinda deal, or ultra pragmatic- I think that actually demonology Warlocks are the most removed from actual fel usage; we have actually seen high elven warlocks out there with blue eyes, so we do know some warlocks don't get like, seeped in fel magic. And while yeah, I would imagine these warlocks wouldn't be particularly light worship-ey, they could be?

[Aldo Hawk]

I mean yeah, it can be justified even if it is on a self-contradictory way -but like, a glutton for punishment kinda deal, or ultra pragmatic- I think that actually demonology Warlocks are the most removed from actual fel usage; we have actually seen high elven warlocks out there with blue eyes, so we do know some warlocks don't get like, seeped in fel magic. And while yeah, I would imagine these warlocks wouldn't be particularly light worship-ey, they could be?

We have seen -one- High elf warlock NPC. And it may have been there for utilitarian purposes, and is not even called a warlock, but a summoner, it's just a warlock instructor. So until we get some clarification on that I would take it with a pinch of salt, given it is a kinda obscured subject.

On the other hand, I feel that a Blood elf shadow priest with golden eyes is the most fucked up thing a Blood elf with golden eyes could be. That is something I would... not call contradictory... but outright nonsensical. Even with the possibilities of reasons it being placed on your character being pretty flexible, that is the one combination that simply stood out as merely impossible.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

We have seen -one- High elf warlock NPC. And it may have been there for utilitarian purposes, and is not even called a warlock, but a summoner, it's just a warlock instructor. So until we get some clarification on that I would take it with a pinch of salt, given it is a kinda obscured subject.

On the other hand, I feel that a Blood elf shadow priest with golden eyes is the most fucked up thing a Blood elf with golden eyes could be. That is something I would... not call contradictory... but outright nonsensical. Even with the possibilities of reasons it being placed on your character being pretty flexible, that is the one combination that simply stood out as merely impossible.

I'm also referring to some HE shadowsworn mobs and the like, not just Nolric. But even so, he falls under the Warlock umbrella, and maybe being a summoner, he deals little with fel. The point is, we have evidence that being a warlock elf doesn't necessarily give you green eyes.

And TBH, a BE shadow priest with golden eyes is as nonsensical as a LFD shadow priest; there will always be some race/spec combos that don't make sense and are gameplay segregated from the story.

[Obelisk Kai]

That you know DK and DH eyes are part-and-parcel of their customization whereas for other BE classes it isn't means you intentionally made an obtuse post, for why, who knows.

The bold is not what I "maintain", I said throughout my whole post, numerous times in-fact, that the Golden Eyes are a player race choice, but the eyes of DH/DK are part of their class choice. Maintaining the overall message that Class restrictions supersede Race options in the context of this back-and-forth.

Also, certain classes being "disallowed because of their lore" again does not mean that only certain playable classes are restricted based on their class lore. I'm guilty of it in my post, but you're also turning this into a word mumbo jumbo. Let's keep it simple:

1) Moorgard states they didn't want to restrict Golden Eyes to certain classes for players.
2) Moorgard explains how they see Golden Eyes lore wise and how it will be handled for NPC Blood Elves.
3) Moorgard states players are free to RP(headcanon) whatever reason they want for their playable BEs to have Golden Eyes.
4) The Class restrictions of (or identity if you will) of Demonhunters and Deathknights supersedes Eye Color choice for players, restricting DHs and DKs to their respective eye colors due to class.

These are the facts. Interpret them however you wish as you've demonstrated (and I) that different people can interpret the same developer ("Word of God") commentary either way.

That you have tried to contact Moorgard for further clarification and received no response means your claims have yet to be validated. My claims aren't necessarily being validated either, but I'm sticking with the status quo here. You're the one that keeps putting forth "if Blood Elves are getting Golden Eyes, so too should High Elves" (the original context of all this back-and-forth) and not bringing any proof into the matter so the onus becomes on you to prove with evidence - something you lack.


Moorgard literally said they "did not want to restrict players" (paraphrasing) that by definition means it's gameplay factoring in. I'm not sure how you're still arguing it isn't when the developer, "Word of God", literally makes a separate distinction for the players, but I guess everyone's a little surprising now and then.



We don't really need to copy/paste Ornyx's comment on how our playable races are actually sub-factions within a given race, do we? Asking rhetorically.

High Elven Exiles (I prefer this term coined by Aucald. It affirms them as being 'exiled' from the main body of their race, the Blood Elves, and simultaneously confirms them as a part of that race. It also circumvents the awkwardness in trying to apply the nuance on every occasion that while most of the Exiles are Alliance aligned, they are not actually a part of the Alliance as they live in neutral Dalaran and function as a part of that society) being able to get golden eyes is not something that needs to be proven. It should be the presumed status quo. The contrary position, that they cannot get golden eyes because Blood Elves have a different relationship with the light than High Elves, is the position that requires proof as it is a radically different proposition from the presumed status quo.

We know from the two developers who have weighed on this topic that there are two pre-requisites to getting golden eyes. That is a devotion to the light and a connection to the Sunwell.

Are High Elven exiles connected to the Sunwell post-restoration? We know from In the Shadow of the Sun that they are. We know from Blood of the Highborne that physically visiting the Sunwell is not necessary for the connection, that connection is metaphysical and transcends time and space and even dimensions. It can therefore be assumed that the Sunwell is like a light in a room all unaltered thalssian elves share, and that if flicked off they are all plunged into darkness (withdrawal) and if flicked on they are bathed in it's glow and soothed by it's radiance. High Elven exiles therefore meet the first condition.

The second condition is a devotion to the light. Before the Sunwell was destroyed, all High Elves worshipped the light, the same faith as practised in the Human kingdoms. In Warcraft 3, the Priest unit were High Elves who specifically refused the recall to Silvermoon once the High Elves departed the Alliance. Whilst Priests and Paladins seem to be few and far between among the High Elven exiles, any who survived would, by their devotion to the light, be able to manifest golden eyes as any other member of their race is able should they fulfil the confirmed conditions.
Which leads neatly into the next point, that as the High Elven exiles are primarily Hunters and Mages (exiled Farstriders and Kirin Tor), they can't have golden eyes.

This is the main point of contention. Paladins and Priests definitely can manifest golden eyes. We see NPCs in game having them. Can the other classes, not DHs and DKs, NOT have golden eyes. Is the option on any other class effectively 'not real', that while a player may select golden eyes on their Warlock, they are essentially head-canoning the entire situation and that in reality they are sporting green eyes as far as the rest of the game world is concerned.

I do not believe this is what Moorgard is saying. Firstly, because it is insulting to players to give them an option and then to imply that they are pretending, that the customization option offered as a reflection of the lore is in effect, not real. How would those players who want High Elf like skins on Void Elves be expected to react if they were granted bu told 'these skin options are for your enjoyment only...in game lore you are actually as purple as everyone else'?
If lore was to be entirely disregarded in favour of customization, with the excuse that said customizations are just head canon and not real, there would have been no reason to exclude Death Knights and Demon Hunters from having those options. That is the reason I raised their inability to have those eye colours in the first place, to demonstrate that Blizzard DID consider lore and in the end DID restrict players.

Moorgard's statement therefore can be taken not as a statement of gameplay, but of lore. That they COULD have written the lore so that only Paladins and Priests would be able to have golden eyes, but they didn't want to restrict players (except where it literally made no sense, i.e Demon Hunters and Death Knights) and so decided the golden eyes option would be open to everyone and that it would be up to them to come up with a reason for it. Sure, some classes (Warlocks) maybe a bit of a stretch when it comes to justifying golden eyes, but golden eyes on a Warlock CAN be justified (which is not the case with Demon Hunters or Death Knights).

In game Paladins and Priests are far more likely to manifest the golden eyes, but the 'potential' is there for all Blood Elves (again, except Demon Hunters and Death Knights but they are hero classes). And as the potential is there for all Blood Elves, it is there for every High Elf exile too, even though they are primarily Hunters and Mages. And nothing in that position contradicts a single thing Moorgard said.

Not sure why you're surprised about it? No one's ever been arguing that High Elves and Blood Elves are different races. They've been arguing that the High Elves on Alliance deserves to become a playable option because it's been a very popular request and this group is very much removed from what Blood Elves are thematically, culturally, and faction-wise.

Plenty of people have have argued that the political separation is tantamount to them being different races. Ielenia was arguing that recently when confronted with the parallel with the exiled Grimtotems.

Alliance High Elves of course are not thematically distinct from Blood Elves; they are fair-skinned, blonde haired 'majestic' elves.
Alliance High Elves are not culturally distinct from Blood Elves; they use thalassian, they perform pilgrimages to the Sunwell, the Silver Covenant apes the Farstriders to the point they use the same ranks.
In gameplay terms, a race that is thematically and aesthetically identical to the High Elf exiles is already available and offering that choice a second time is as redundant as asking for green skinned Orcs as an Allied race. That of course leaves aside with the undermining of the integrity of the Horde faction by duplicating a Horde race and undermining the identity of the Blood Elves which are the corollaries of playable High Elven exiles.

The one distinction that holds water is the final one you mention, faction. The High Elf exiles clearly prefer the Alliance, even if for the most part they are not formally members. That is the political distinction I have long acknowledged, which the developers have acknowledged and which is confirmed to be not enough to justify an Allied race.

Enjoy! I've been having a blast, I logged in early enough into character select to not have to be in queues. I am enjoying it immensely despite never having played Vanilla!

Shazzrah EU is quite packed and the queues substantial. In the end I didn't play for long yesterday as I got disconnected and retreated to my other gaming love, Europa Universalis 4, as I waited. When I did get in I found the game very enjoyable. Should I get in today, as I am back in the queue as I type this, I hope to reach level 10 on my Druid and head into Darkshore.

Yes, in classic, I am playing Alliance. Partly because many of my friends are, partly because Alliance was a better developed faction in classic, partly because of the superior PVE experience, partly because I missed vanilla from the Alliance perspective the first time around. I am curious to explore the old game from the blue perspective.

- - - Updated - - -

I already told you a while ago that I make concepts for dark skinned High Elves and Blood Elves, and that I would simply add it as an option for both.

The only reason dark skinned elves could be alliance only is if it's because of some dark skinned human parentage upwards the line thus is restricted to places where High Elves have lived with humans for a long time.

But while I say simply just add dark skinned options to all thalassian elves -in terms of retcons it would be barely a drop- there could be a in universe explanation of dark skinned elves belonging to a group that either separated earlier from Lor'themar, or where Highborne that survived from a different city and either were dark skinned highbrone back then, or for their environment became dark skinned High Elves.

Ideally Vereesa would recruit them as a whole so it would be a great boon population wise for the SC, but more perfect would be if the Blood Elves managed to sway some of those elves to their side, resulting in both sides getting dark skinned options.

Regardless of HE playability, I'd like to see dark skinned blood elves introduced somehow, and I do think it can be done as either a retcon or with a lore reasoning.

Fair enough, but the entire concept is also incredibly unlikely as it touches on some live wire real world issues. Were a retcon option taken, it should be to provide those tones to Blood Elf players.

Even the one dark skinned elf mentioned in lore, we don't know what that means. All thalassian elves we know of right now are pale skinned, it could be that a dark-skinned thalassian elf is one of those with a ruddy, red complexion (an option available in the character creator) as that would be dark skinned relative to some of the lighter tones available.

[Aldo Hawk]

Sin'dorei's light devotion is directly tied with the Sunwell, the golden eyes are tied to having light devotion through the Sunwell, High elves have light devotion the way they always did, and they didn't had golden eyes before the light infused Sunwell, for the reason that devotion to the light alone doesn't give golden eyes (This would have been a known thing even before the light infusing of the Sunwell), it has to be -actively- done through the Sunwell.

This doesn't go against what Moorgard said, this is exactly what Moorgard said and this is nothing that goes against what Moorgard said. A Blood elf gets golden eyes because of their devotion to the light, and the way they devote to the light, is through the light infused Sunwell.

This is not the case with High elves. The High elves devote to the light the same way Humans and Dwarves do. Through the church. And that is not the way they can get golden eyes.

What happens here is that Kai is headcanoning through an oversimplification of the information, as he often does. Nobody can create a two-point criteria with this subject and expect it to be truthful to the way the light works (thing that as I saw, is overly not known) and the way the Sunwell is involved with the light and devotion to it. Things are complex, and this is not the first time a slightly complex concept in warcraft has been mistaken with being overly simple.

Just remember him (and many others) repeating over and over how the Thalassians will end up with golden eyes because they were 'suckin'' the light from it. While we only saw paladins and priests having these. The novelty and clarification here is that there is a lore reason for non paladin or priests being able to have those with the condition of -actively- being light worshipers, and the way Sin'dorei do that, is through the Sunwell. Not Quel'dorei.

[Madkat124]

Honestly, if they get rid of factions (or relax them) just give BEs a blue eyed option and call it a day.

[FlubberPuddy]

It should be the presumed status quo. The contrary position, that they cannot get golden eyes because Blood Elves have a different relationship with the light than High Elves, is the position that requires proof as it is a radically different proposition from the presumed status quo.

I don't believe you understand how a "status quo" works then. A status quo isn't "presumed" it EXISTS. It MUST exist to be a status quo. That's how it works. This is why the onus becomes on you to prove, as my statement IS the status quo: There are no High Elves with Golden Eyes.

Your comment in contention was "since High Elves and Blood Elves are the same, if Blood Elves have Golden Eyes so too will High Elves". This is not a status quo because currently no High Elf with Golden Eyes exists.

You cannot claim something is a "presumed status quo" because by definition a status quo must already exist. Not be presumed, not be deduced, etc. It IS.

Which leads neatly into the next point, that as the High Elven exiles are primarily Hunters and Mages (exiled Farstriders and Kirin Tor), they can't have golden eyes.

This comment really makes no sense, even with all the context because originally you've been saying every non-DH/DK class can have Golden Eyes "based on lore" and now you're saying that High Elves who are Hunters/Mages cannot. Which would also then contradict your statements about how the gameplay option available to player BE characters is a lore based one.

Because if High Elves who are Hunters/Mages cannot have Golden Eyes then that means it is clearly simply a gameplay decision to allow BE Hunters/Mages the ability to have Golden Eyes. This is if we are keeping up with your logic.

Plenty of people have have argued that the political separation is tantamount to them being different races.

Even if others have argued it, I have not. Therefore I am surprised you were surprised by me saying so. I am not the entire pro-High Elf brigade, I am simply me. What others say doesn't mean I also said it. There's some individuals who think High Elves will be announced at this Blizzcon. I would find them very unrealistic imo. I think I also have gone on record for making such posts too in the past (dissuading others that High Elves will come so soon).

Anyways, I shortened a lot of what you said because this back-and-forth isn't fruitful. Maybe it wasn't fruitful for a very long time, but now with Classic out and the time that takes, as well as my other responsibilities, I am much much less inclined to continue forum conversations that may likely never end.

Shazzrah EU is quite packed and the queues substantial. In the end I didn't play for long yesterday as I got disconnected and retreated to my other gaming love, Europa Universalis 4, as I waited. When I did get in I found the game very enjoyable. Should I get in today, as I am back in the queue as I type this, I hope to reach level 10 on my Druid and head into Darkshore.

Yes, in classic, I am playing Alliance. Partly because many of my friends are, partly because Alliance was a better developed faction in classic, partly because of the superior PVE experience, partly because I missed vanilla from the Alliance perspective the first time around. I am curious to explore the old game from the blue perspective.

I'm not sure if you follow media/content creators around WoW much, but it's packed because that is decidedly the "streamer"/"content creator" server for EU therefore it's expected. It's similar to Faerlina US here. Although I found myself a cozy place on Atiesh US. Don't have time for PvP servers these days since I can't stay up with the crowd.

Hope you enjoy your Druid and time on Alliance, and it sure is the "superior PVE experience" ;D. As another streamer once said, "this is the closest you'll get to Lord of the Rings.....unless you actually play LOTRO."

I'm really enjoying my time on my Paladin and taking it slow/taking in the world. A lot of people say to play "how you want to play" with regards to first timers, so I'm doing just that.

[Traveler Voltin]

what has this devolved into?

[Ielenia]

Honestly, if they get rid of factions (or relax them) just give BEs a blue eyed option and call it a day.

That would solve none of the issues the high elf supporters have, and would be just another middle finger to the HE community.

[Frenchvince]

pilgrimages to the sunwell have probably not been possible for some time now for some high elves.

I mean, how can this be possible with Sunreaver?

We saw during the rescue of Baine that the Sunreaver want the death of Jaina and the traitors of the horde who are with the alliance, for the vengence of the purge of Dalaran.

As a result, the high elves of the silver covenant are concerned by this threat because they made this purge with Jaina.

So all the High Elves are not going to sunwell and they will surely "feed" on another source of magic.

I do not think there will be peace or neutral faction between the high elves of the covenant and the blood elves as long as there will be the Sunreaver in the horde.

[Aldo Hawk]

pilgrimages to the sunwell have probably not been possible for some time now for some high elves.

I mean, how can this be possible with Sunreaver?

We saw during the rescue of Baine that the Sunreaver want the death of Jaina and the traitors of the horde who are with the alliance, for the vengence of the purge of Dalaran.

As a result, the high elves of the silver covenant are concerned by this threat because they made this purge with Jaina.

So all the High Elves are not going to sunwell and they will surely "feed" on another source of magic.

Well, I also think that the pilgrimages would have suffered some changes due to a pair of events since MoP. (Alleria was a special case, since she was not even in Azeroth during the purge of Dalaran, and the war in BfA happened -after- her visit).

However... Unless there is a way that the Blood elves can cut the arcane magic from reaching the specific group of the High elves... I don't think they would need to find another source.

Unless they themselves decide to, so they cut even more ties with their former people. But that is just speculation. The energies of the Sunwell can reach the Thalassians anywhere they are so I'm expecting to see more info about this.

- - - Updated - - -

That would solve none of the issues the high elf supporters have, and would be just another middle finger to the HE community.

This is true.

High elves are not Blood elves. Blue eyes and no faction barrier is not a solution.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Fair enough, but the entire concept is also incredibly unlikely as it touches on some live wire real world issues. Were a retcon option taken, it should be to provide those tones to Blood Elf players.

Yeah, this is not an issue really. Again, as retcons go, saying "yeah there are more skin tones" barely affects anything. And again, there's also the option of introducing another High Elf population that joins the blood elves -and SC, if playable- to add justification.

There's simply not even an inkling of highborne descendant elves being prejudiced against skin color; of all the elves, Elisande saw the BE as the most kin to the nightborne, even when they look different, and shunned the HE's, who look just like BE's. It's pretty clear that ideology and lifestyle are far more important, and the easy friendship between NB and BE as show how close they are even when they have very opposite skin tones.

I think it's very easy to interpret NB and BE as not caring about skin tone on the slightest.

Even the one dark skinned elf mentioned in lore, we don't know what that means. All thalassian elves we know of right now are pale skinned, it could be that a dark-skinned thalassian elf is one of those with a ruddy, red complexion (an option available in the character creator) as that would be dark skinned relative to some of the lighter tones available.

When the point is to add more options, the whole deal is to read the lore to support that; One is using the lore to justify a point of view -add dark skin options for blood elves-

All you are doing when you say "well they might be referring to the already ruddier skin tones" is contesting the proposition itself, being either because you don't want dark skinned elves, or you believe lore has to be preserved to a standard.

I doubt is the first is your motivation, the second is a fool's errand: Warcraft's lore is continually evolving and being retconned, it's comic book lore, crowdsourced without a central and unique vision like a book series. Warcraft's lore evolves in relationship to the gameplay desired which includes the options they would want to give players.

I'm not saying Devi has dark skin as a "gotcha" moment, and that dark skinned elves are a must because of it; I'm simply presenting it a possibility of something that could already be in lore and not need further explanation to be added.

[Resident Rump]

Yeah, this is not an issue really. Again, as retcons go, saying "yeah there are more skin tones" barely affects anything. And again, there's also the option of introducing another High Elf population that joins the blood elves -and SC, if playable- to add justification.

There's simply not even an inkling of highborne descendant elves being prejudiced against skin color; of all the elves, Elisande saw the BE as the most kin to the nightborne, even when they look different, and shunned the HE's, who look just like BE's. It's pretty clear that ideology and lifestyle are far more important, and the easy friendship between NB and BE as show how close they are even when they have very opposite skin tones.

I think it's very easy to interpret NB and BE as not caring about skin tone on the slightest.



When the point is to add more options, the whole deal is to read the lore to support that; One is using the lore to justify a point of view -add dark skin options for blood elves-

All you are doing when you say "well they might be referring to the already ruddier skin tones" is contesting the proposition itself, being either because you don't want dark skinned elves, or you believe lore has to be preserved to a standard.

I doubt is the first is your motivation, the second is a fool's errand: Warcraft's lore is continually evolving and being retconned, it's comic book lore, crowdsourced without a central and unique vision like a book series. Warcraft's lore evolves in relationship to the gameplay desired which includes the options they would want to give players.

I'm not saying Devi has dark skin as a "gotcha" moment, and that dark skinned elves are a must because of it; I'm simply presenting it a possibility of something that could already be in lore and not need further explanation to be added.

Sounds to me like Devi has set a precedent already, meaning dark skin Thalassian elves exist. Why the devs decided to only put fair skin and purple skin options for playable elves is baffling. Maybe some sort of personal bias?

[Rhlor]

asian thalassian :O

[Keyblader]

DISCLAIMER: I AM NOT FOR OR AGAINST THE WHOLE HIGH ELF/ BLOOD ELF DEBOCLE THAT HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR AGES THIS IS JUST AN OBSERVATION

If we are to entertain the idea, that Blizzard does in fact end the faction split in the next expac, and a 3rd faction breaks off, or just both factions are merged somehow, I think this would finally give Blizzard the excuse needed to give the Alliance High Elves. I already know the argument that High Elves and Blood Elves are the same, even Blizzard has said themselves, they are basically the same. But by ending the faction split, they would finally have a valid reason to just let both factions have that race, and label them as High Elves for the Alliance.

If another faction split did happen, Blood Elves would most likely be one of the major ones to stay with the Alliance seeing as Lor'themar and Jaina came to terms in Nazjatar this patch.

[Briselody]

One of the more reasonable of those recent leaks had a bit about some/most allied races being baked in as customizations for existing core races.

If true, I could see "Thalassian elf" being a thing, with blood, high, and void all as branching options.

Only way I really see that happening though. I don't see them ever adding a third actual race with the same model.

[Kyphael]

Nice touch with the disclaimer, I had my response all ready, but you disarmed me.

And you're damn right I'm going to pay to faction change my blood elf to the Alliance like all the other suckers who want playable High Elves!

[Melsiren]

Yep, the death of the factions pretty much ends the "HE delema"

Been saying this since before BFA funny enough.