Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[LawdArthas]

A question to the helfers, how would you introduce high elfs without taking away from the uniqueness of blood elfs? This is a genuine question, and I'm hoping for a genuine answer. Please don't use the "but Pandarens" as an answer. They were introduced as neutral. In the case of high/blood elves, we're discussing a topic that effectively makes the high elven race neutral. Which to me is unfair to the Horde.

Here is my take on how the high elves take away from blood elven identity:

1) Blood elves are the redefinition of what a high elf on Azeroth is. Their introduction in TBC was clear that the high elven story continued on through blood elves. Adding playable high elves to me blurs the definition of what "high elves" are. Most players associate blood elves as the high elves of WoW. Even lead WoW developers have acknowledged this. I saw a few pages back someone sharing a quote from Chris Metzen that blood elves are the high elves of WoW. So ultimately, although a small group of high elves are affiliated with the Alliance and call themselves the high elves, they aren't the legacy of high elven society.. the blood elves are. And it would be unfair to blur this definition by making high elves more focal by making them an AR.

2) Apart from political views (Horde or Alliance), what differences are there between the two groups? The OP on this thread and on the official forums seems to focus on a woodland elf thematic. Again, to me this detracts from blood elven identity, and to a degree night elven. The farstriders are a group of rangers predominantly belonging to the blood elves, and we know in game that there are references of the blood elven farstriders having a connection to nature and feeling at home in the forests and finding allies in the wilderness.

This is from the quest 'Seek the Farstriders': <name>, it is good you have come. Our list of allies grows thin, and even those who share our cause are not completely trusted. It is because of this that we, the rangers, turn to nature for aid. In the allies of the forest we find a deep bond that does not know deceit.

This sounds like a woodland elf to me. So woodland elves are already manifested via the blood elves, and if anything the woodland theme should be further portrayed through the blood elven farstriders, not the Alliance high elf rangers in highvale who are a significantly smaller group than the farstriders. The book Tides of Darkness also talks about the farstriders being intimately bound to the wildlands.

The only other identity we see from Alliance high elves is magi. But again, the blood elves already fill that fantasy so high elves would bring nothing new but double down on the elven ranger or elven magi theme. Also, the high elves of Dalaran share the exact same history as the Sunreavers. I see people focusing on how some high elves have been living in Dalaran for 2000 years, but so have the blood elven Sunreavers. So again, what distinction is there between the SC and the Sunreavers? Both are high elven groups who have lived in Dalaran for a long time, and have a heavy focus on Magic.

Some talk about high elf paladins. But again, the whole concept of elven paladins began with the blood knights, who are blood elves. So this is another feature unique to blood elves that high elves would detract from.

Blood elves and high elves are biologically the same, have the same thematics, share 99% of the same culture, history and lore (apart from the last decade or so, which is miniscule when compared to their longevity). So back to my opening question, how do you introduce high elves without blurring faction lines and detracting from the blood elves in so many ways?

[Ielenia]

1) Blood elves are the redefinition of what a high elf on Azeroth is. Their introduction in TBC was clear that the high elven story continued on through blood elves. Adding playable high elves to me blurs the definition of what "high elves" are. Most players associate blood elves as the high elves of WoW. Even lead WoW developers have acknowledged this. I saw a few pages back someone sharing a quote from Chris Metzen that blood elves are the high elves of WoW. So ultimately, although a small group of high elves are affiliated with the Alliance and call themselves the high elves, they aren't the legacy of high elven society.. the blood elves are. And it would be unfair to blur this definition by making high elves more focal by making them an AR.

You wrote a lot there, but you never explained how the addition of playable high elves to the Alliance would "blur the definition" of 'high elf'.

2) Apart from political views (Horde or Alliance), what differences are there between the two groups? The OP on this thread and on the official forums seems to focus on a woodland elf thematic. Again, to me this detracts from blood elven identity, and to a degree night elven. The farstriders are a group of rangers predominantly belonging to the blood elves, and we know in game that there are references of the blood elven farstriders having a connection to nature and feeling at home in the forests and finding allies in the wilderness.

There is their culture, or in the case of blood elves, their new culture. Blood elves will do anything to survive, to the point of draining mana from living beings, and enslaving a Naaru to forcibly enslave the power of the Light. That's something high elves would not do, for one.

The only other identity we see from Alliance high elves is magi. But again, the blood elves already fill that fantasy

Troll druids already fill the "troll druid" fantasy, so why can Zandalari be druids? Human mages already fill the "human mage" fantasy, so why can Kul'tirans be mages?

Some talk about high elf paladins. But again, the whole concept of elven paladins began with the blood knights, who are blood elves. So this is another feature unique to blood elves that high elves would detract from.

Huh? What you wrote that doesn't make sense. "Paladins" are not something "unique" to blood elves. Just because blood elves can be paladins doesn't mean that other elven races cannot be paladins. That's like saying that "human mages" are unique to humans, but we have Kul'tiran mages.

Even then, the "blood knights" and "high elf paladins" would have completely different lore, considering the blood knights were born out of the enslavement, torture and experimentation of a captured Naaru. I doubt high elf paladins (if playable high elves are allowed to be paladins) would follow the same lore.

So back to my opening question, how do you introduce high elves without blurring faction lines and detracting from the blood elves in so many ways?

Nothing would be "detracted" from the blood elves. Everything a blood elf is will remain unchanged. You would have a point about "detracting from blood elves" if high elves did not exist in the world. But they do exist. And are quite prominent considering they're called a race people claim is "near extinction".

Not a single piece of lore is being asked to be changed, other than the Alliance "officially recognizing" the high elves to make them a playable race.

[LawdArthas]

You wrote a lot there, but you never explained how the addition of playable high elves to the Alliance would "blur the definition" of 'high elf'.

So no genuine answer? Just a troll response.

Blood elves are the definition of the high elven fantasy in the Warcraft universe. Making alliance high elves playable would detract from the already playable Horde high elven group who are known as the blood elves. It would dull their uniqueness, it would blur the definition of what high elves are and what they've become. All this, simply because of a small group of elves who chose the Alliance. High elves are not a significant force, they are not a major society. They are a dwindling group, and shouldn't further impede on the definition of "high elves". Making them playable would suggest that they're either thriving or moving forward in the world of Azeroth, but we know from countless in and out of game references that this is not the case. They're assimilating into human culture, they're losing their identity. They're dwindling. They have no real culture or direction, and simply are a small group following their human allies. Why blur the high elven identity, which is blood elves, with a dwindling group? Create a blood elf and you'll see that they are the next chapter of the high elf story. The story has moved forward via blood elves, and I don't think it fair for this small group of Alliance high elves to blur that story.

There is their culture, or in the case of blood elves, their new culture. Blood elves will do anything to survive, to the point of draining mana from living beings, and enslaving a Naaru to forcibly enslave the power of the Light. That's something high elves would not do, for one.

Again, Alleria says hi.

To some, Alleria is the pinnacle of what it means to be a high elf. Yet she's dabbled in dangerous magics and she's absorbed a fallen Naaru. Does that resemble your description of Blood Elves to some degree? Yes. High elves are not as different from blood elves as you may like to believe.

[Aldo Hawk]

Some talk about high elf paladins. But again, the whole concept of elven paladins began with the blood knights, who are blood elves. So this is another feature unique to blood elves that high elves would detract from.

High elves (before the scourge invasion) had genuine belief on the light, until they felt betrayed by it and started enslaving a naaru and later on drawing their powers from the Sunwell. That is not the case for High elves since they still maintain their old ways.

A High elf Paladin is exactly the same kind of Paladin as human and dwarf ones. They didn't enslave a Naaru, they don't get their powers from the light-infused Sunwell, those were, and are the Blood Knights, High elves share the same culture about the light as humans and dwarves.

Simply put. Blood knights were formed -after- the scourge invasion. Before that, High elves believed in the light and those who separated/were separated from Silvermoon, rejects the horde and the ways of their old brethren, and still maintain the name High elf, are still Paladins and Priests who believe in the light.

Also, Chris Metzen referred to Blood elves as 'our' High elves making reference as to what a High elf is pertaining various fantasy worlds. And, after that, he explained what would be their own spin on them. And since they still added (and added non blood elf NPCs before) High elves as a separate people from the Blood elves... It cannot by any logic mean that Blood elves have replaced what a High elf is in the world of warcraft, since they still exist.

Blood elves still are Blood elves in all it's wholeness to this day while High elves have already appeared and that didn't damaged the Blood elves in any way, why do you think that making them playable would damage their identity? It's an existing group. That's why Pandaren are brought up, because they have -zero- (0) differences between them, while a High elf allied race would with 100% certainty by linear logic develop on those differences as any pre-existing race that became playable did.

I hope you felt satisfied by at least one of the explanations i displayed.

[Ielenia]

So no genuine answer? Just a troll response.

I would be careful when using that word. Especially how you disregard over half my post to simply say "you got no answer". Which, again, is false.

Blood elves are the definition of the high elven fantasy in the Warcraft universe. Making alliance high elves playable would detract from the already playable Horde high elven group who are known as the blood elves. It would dull their uniqueness, it would blur the definition of what high elves are and what they've become.

It would not. You would have a point if a group called "high elves" did not already exist in the game. But they do. And they existed since vanilla day one. High elves exist, so do they lore. They are a separate group from blood elves, and even have reasons to join the Alliance.

All this, simply because of a small group of elves who chose the Alliance.

A group, mind you, that is highly likely to be bigger than the group of blood elves that were kicked out of Silvermoon for dealing with the void.

They are a dwindling group, and shouldn't further impede on the definition of "high elves".

They are high elves. Blood elves are now blood elves. Anything the word "high elf" means now are the thalassian elves that decided to stay with the Alliance and refused to follow Kael'Thas' teachings to extract mana from living beings.

Making them playable would suggest that they're either thriving or moving forward in the world of Azeroth,

And that would be a bad thing... why, again?

but we know from countless in and out of game references that this is not the case.

In-game references? Please, show me some of those.

They're assimilating into human culture,

You do realize that, assuming that is true, you just gave further examples of the differentiation between blood elves and high elves, culturally-speaking?

They have no real culture or direction,

They have their culture, and direction can be given. They can be given a new purpose.

Why blur the high elven identity, which is blood elves, with a dwindling group?

There is no "blurring". High elves already exist, and have existed since forever. Nothing would be changed in terms of lore for the blood elves. Even better: every new story development would give the blood elves more uniqueness. Hell, they already have, being avid practitioners of blood/anima magic.

Create a blood elf and you'll see that they are the next chapter of the high elf story.

Not quite. They are a different chapter. Not exactly "next chapter". They're a branching path, not the next step. To say they're the "next chapter" implies there is no more potential development in the "previous chapter", which is false.

Again, Alleria says hi.

I don't recall Alleria ever "capturing and enslaving a naaru, torturing it to gain its power" or "destroying innocent living beings for the sake of their nourishment."

[FlubberPuddy]

The story has moved forward via blood elves, and I don't think it fair for this small group of Alliance high elves to blur that story.

This portion really doesn't make sense. A lot of what you say doesn't, but I wanted to focus on this in particular.

When the High Elf and Blood Elf split occurred, High Elves stopped being part of what the Blood Elf story moved toward. High Elves go onto having a different tangent. This doesn't do any "blurring" because everything the Blood Elves are doing - from a renewed Sunwell (not taking Light by force anymore), to utilizing Anima, to doing whatever it takes to survive - are all things specific to Blood Elves.

High Elves don't step on the toes of any of that. Unless you can show me that the High Elves in Alliance are utilizing the Blood Elf story beats, this "blurring" isn't occurring nor can occur. What does it even mean to "blur that story"? How does a playable High Elf blur that?

High Elves have a different culture and different direction than their Blood Elf brethren.

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The "high elven identity" bit is weird too. What is "high elven identity" even mean when we have developers saying "Blood Elves kinda are High Elves" and "Void Elves are another flavor of High Elves"? Both of these groups are also high elves so what is "high elven identity"?

It's like how there's 3 humans on the Alliance. What is the "human identity", is it Stormwindian, Kul Tiran, or Gilnean? Those are all humans, which one is the "human identity"?

[Neverafter]

First, if I am coming off condescending, I do apologize. That is not my intentions. I have stated several times, I support a High Elf option and I am sympathetic to this cause. I am simply trying to point out where I feel the strongest weaknesses are in these arguments for the Pro High Elf community.

As for the "Blue Eyed Blood Elf" comments, as I have said previously, thus far, in game, in lore, in every respect, that is what a High Elf is. Simply stating you want a High Elf to anyone outside of your community is read as you want Blood Elves. It has been stated several times that isn't what the High Elf community wants, but at no point has anyone explained what difference a High Elf would have as opposed to Blood Elves, even after being asked several times to define a High Elf without Blood Elves with regard to implementation. Any potential compromises or additions have been summarily shot down as "not what we asked for" or "not High Elven" enough. This begs the question, that I have asked repeatedly, what would be enough. If "Blue Eyed Blood Elves" aren't what you want, High Elven options, whether through Void Elves or some other method should be welcomed and encouraged.

The continuum was supposed to show how these requests are being viewed in the community, one extreme to another. The further you go, the harder the pushback is going to be. It was also supposed to give a visual representation as to the requests of the community. Like a rubberband, if it is stretched too far, it breaks. This is the fear of the Anti High Elfs. (Most) everyone here loves this game, or their wouldn't be such passion from both sides.

I am not a WoW Developer. Chances are no one in this discussion is. That is why we can only use their own words. Dismissing them as wrong because there have been minor retcons or changes in the past doesn't do the Pro High Elf community any favors. Like it or not, Ion has said Lightskinned Blue Eyed Elves are on the Horde. Ok. We still want High Elves. The developers have said not to give up hope and such. If you view Void Elves as a compromise and not the end of possible High Elven Alliance options, there are still opportunities. We aren't developers, but we can brainstorm potential solutions. As long as the Pro High Elf community continues to attack and ostracize anyone who doesn't keep with the mantra "High Elves or Nothing", sadly, nothing is what you will probably get.

[ddi2]

You are right on the first part. In game, these terms, for the most part, are not used interchangeably. Once a Void Elf has become a Void Elf, they will identify themselves as a Void Elf, because as a gameplay component, they are now a Void Elf. We as players however, know their lore and history, and know that they are a splinter faction of the Blood Elves, which themselves came from High Elves. There is even indications, though none explicit enough for some readers, that Void Elves are allowing other elves to study and potentially become Void Elves, including High Elves that have remained loyal to the Alliance.

It's not a gameplay component at all, in the lore itself "Blood Elf", "High Elf" and "Void Elf" are not used interchangeably as well. There are quest lines and cinematics where Blood Elves and High Elves were specifically told to be different groups hence it is part of the lore. If you want to find a word that refers to all three, you can call them Thalassian Elves.

As for being obtuse, I have to disagree. I have plainly and clearly laid out the facts of the game.

Obviously, you don't base your facts of the game from the game.

I have payed attention to the topic. Evidently the purpose of this thought experiment has alluded you.

It is easy to talk about hypotheticals and abstract ideas. "I want to play a High Elf". That is fine. That is a perfectly reasonable request to make, just as much as any other race or class or any other suggestion.

The problem is in the details. You say "Ultimately it doesn't matter". I and many others big to differ. It absolutely matters, and that is why I brought up the continuum. Based on your own words, it sounds like you would place yourself somewhere between a 5 and 6. You would not be happy with Void Elves receiving more options, even though the lore is and could be made to fit such an option.

The problem is, however, that with Void Elves having already been introduced and not "High Elven Enough" but much of the community, the question has to be asked, what would suffice? What would make the High Elven community happy? Simply stating playable High Elves completely misses the point that in lore, in game, and for all intents and purposes, that equates to copy and pasting a Horde race to the Alliance. That is the most extreme end of the continuum for a reason. The other end being elves would never exist, something we can observe in the game to have already been broken.

This also speaks to the "Faction Diversity" point. That is a term that, to my knowledge, has not been defined by Blizzard and thus players are using their own interpretations. For this continuum, Blizzard had been at a 2 previously. Each faction had distinct elves. With BFA, they moved to a 3, now each faction had the distinct elves they had before, as well as a version of the distinct elves of the other faction. Many players are apprehensive and some outright hostile to moving past a 3 at all. The further someone moves past Option 3, the more hostile people become.

You can argue that players wanted High Elves and not Void Elves. That is a perfectly reasonable statement and I am sure has been made several times already. The problem is, Blizzard likes to make decisions conservatively. Once something is made available to players, it is much more difficult to pull back. Even in 8.2, they are loosening the rules that have been placed on Transmog since its inception. Void Elves were Blizzard's first attempt at giving players a version of High Elves, but still remained distinct from Blood Elves. A large portion of the audience, as this thread can speak to, has rejected Void Elves as not "High Elven enough".

Again, I ask what would be enough? If someone can come up with a viable Option 5 that does more than give Void Elves more customization options but does not go so far as copy and pasting Blood Elves to the Alliance, I am all ears. This is meant to attempt to take the abstract ideas and accusations and bring them down to something we can all visualize.

"Ultimately it doesn't matter" means that personally me and many others don't care how High Elves are implemented as long as their implementation is true to High Elf lore as it stands now in the game.

As for your question about if Void Elfs are not enough what is enough then, this is where you show your ignorance about the topic which in turn makes your knowing tone condescending and your questionnaire ridiculous. Because people have been posting the suggestions for how to implement High Elves for them to be still High Elves and not Blood Elves with blue eyes for a loong time already, and these suggestions include huge write-ups, loads of art, 3D model, etc., many of which you wouldn't just find by reading the High Elf threads but just clicking on the opening post of this megathread, or go to official Blizzard forums and read the opening post there where many of the arts, write-ups, models are collected. You can also simply search in Google, Youtube, Reddit, 4chan, you'll find this information literally everywhere. Asking here on page 555 how High Elf fans would want High Elves to be implemented means that no, you did not pay attention to the topic at all and it's also disrespectful to the people that did a colossal work that answered your question a long time before you asked it.

[Neverafter]

"Ultimately it doesn't matter" means that personally me and many others don't care how High Elves are implemented as long as their implementation is true to High Elf lore as it stands now in the game.

As for your question about if Void Elfs are not enough what is enough then, this is where you show your ignorance about the topic which in turn makes your knowing tone condescending and your questionnaire ridiculous. Because people have been posting the suggestions for how to implement High Elves for them to be still High Elves and not Blood Elves with blue eyes for a loong time already, and these suggestions include huge write-ups, loads of art, 3D model, etc., many of which you wouldn't just find by reading the High Elf threads but just clicking on the opening post of this megathread, or go to official Blizzard forums and read the opening post there where many of the arts, write-ups, models are collected. You can also simply search in Google, Youtube, Reddit, 4chan, you'll find this information literally everywhere. Asking here on page 555 how High Elf fans would want High Elves to be implemented means that no, you did not pay attention to the topic at all and it's also disrespectful to the people that did a colossal work that answered your question a long time before you asked it.

I'm not addressing the other points in your post because I'm not responding to personal attacks or name calling. We simply disagree on a very minor point in the overall scheme of things.

If the question regarding High Elves had been answered, this thread would have ended hundreds of pages ago. Unfortunately, tattoos, feathers, sea farring Thalassian Elves, and any other recommendation that I have seen ultimately fails to either remain true to High Elven lore, be separate from Blood Elves. The implementation cannot just simply be hand waved away. I have even offered examples to show how this could be done. Sorry if I come off condescending to you, but given the attitude of the Pro High Elf community, I can't help but be defensive. I want High Elven options on the Alliance.

Ultimately, the future of High Elves comes down to 2 possible paths.
1). Void Elves are given a questline that sees High Elves fully embracing the Void along with Void Elves leading to Void Elves having High Elven customization options.
2). A group of High Elves, whether it be Silver Covenant (The most likely and most numerous and well known group of remaining High Elves) or some other fully committing to the Alliance and being inducted into the Alliance as full members.

The problem with the first scenerio is many have already dismissed it as not being what they want, not being High Elven enough, or have some other reason for not liking it. Given Blizzard's conservative nature, it is more likely than the second scenario. It also avoids a major problem with scenario 2. That is, in scenario 2, if the Alliance is given a new race, what race would the Horde get? Especially if Allied Races are planned for an eventual retirement or at least not used to the extent they have been in BFA. Furthermore, their is the question of models and depiction in game. Silver Covenant are not shown to have tattoos, wear extravagant feathered headdresses, etc. Even if that were the case, it would still be a weak implementation. This would also increase the number of elven races and potentially diminish any future contributions the Void Elves may have had. Giving Void Elves High Elven options would make sense within the lore and avoid the pitfalls of a new race all together.

If instead, there was some further alteration to those Silver Covenant members, embracing the Light being the most likely, but maybe there is another cosmic force they could reach out to and become affiliated with. There hasn't been enough time for any sort of physical differences between Blood and High Elves. Void Elves were blasted and changed immediately, Nightborne took thousands of years. Without some other cosmic force being involved, there remains no difference between Blood and High Elves.

So please, keep the condescension and name calling to a minimum.

[FlubberPuddy]

If the question regarding High Elves had been answered, this thread would have ended hundreds of pages ago.

No, because the one who's going to answer that question to put an end to this discussion would be Blizzard themselves. Seeing as their recent spiel on the topic was encouragement to continue it, it's still something to be discussed.

If people themselves feel like this topic is done and over with, they're obviously free to not hang around after stating so. Anyone who continually comes back to the topic has some semblance this topic isn't over and is why they're either returning to defend it or break it down.

Ultimately, the future of High Elves comes down to 2 possible paths.
1). Void Elves are given a questline that sees High Elves fully embracing the Void along with Void Elves leading to Void Elves having High Elven customization options.
2). A group of High Elves, whether it be Silver Covenant (The most likely and most numerous and well known group of remaining High Elves) or some other fully committing to the Alliance and being inducted into the Alliance as full members.

The problem with the first scenerio is many have already dismissed it as not being what they want, not being High Elven enough, or have some other reason for not liking it. Given Blizzard's conservative nature, it is more likely than the second scenario. It also avoids a major problem with scenario 2. That is, in scenario 2, if the Alliance is given a new race, what race would the Horde get? Especially if Allied Races are planned for an eventual retirement or at least not used to the extent they have been in BFA. Furthermore, their is the question of models and depiction in game. Silver Covenant are not shown to have tattoos, wear extravagant feathered headdresses, etc. Even if that were the case, it would still be a weak implementation. This would also increase the number of elven races and potentially diminish any future contributions the Void Elves may have had. Giving Void Elves High Elven options would make sense within the lore and avoid the pitfalls of a new race all together.

Yes, many High Elf fans don't like the first scenario because it shoehorns in two distinct groups that are not following the same direction at all, Void Elves are 90% similar to Blood Elves in terms of culture, disposition, and "majestic" aesthetics - they just utilize the Void instead of the Light. Their personality still rings true to Blood Elves more than High Elves.

Also just because a scenario is suggested by Blizzard themselves, it doesn't mean the players must accept it or that it's inevitable. Blizzard, when all the Nostalrius stuff was happening came out with a post about implementing "Pristine Servers", their idea of "old-school WoW", and that was met with a lot of negative feedback. A suggestion =/= this is how it'll be implemented.

Since we know a lot of High Elf fans don't want the first suggestion, then it's information that Blizzard can now work with (among all the information being provided on this topic overall).

And you're doing something else others come in and do but don't apply to other AR threads, why ask us what the Horde gets? No one here gives a shit what the Horde gets, Horde players can think up what a pair would be for if Alliance got High Elves. This isn't the responsibility of people requesting an Allied Race, that's Blizzard's repsonsibility.

Dark Irons weren't shown to wear tattoos either, nor have flame-wicked beards. They got those when they became an Allied Race. An NPC model =/= how the Allied Race model will look. If it were the case the Nightborne wouldn't be having the faces they do, nor the black and blonde hair options they have available either.

As for decreasing Void Elf contribution, they've barely had any in the first place. They'll most likely only ever be used for Void related things, this wouldn't conflict with the matters the High Elves would be dealing with since Void is the specialty of Void Elves. Also do you feel the same way for how Lightforged aren't used in BFA? Blizzard recently came out and said that there's just too many stories to tell so they're not always going to be able to tell every race's or character's story.

High Elves on Alliance have had more story beats than some of the playable races, they had more story to them than Draenei before WoD, and had more story to them than Gnomes until Mechagon. Blizzard sure did spend a lot of resources into giving a non-playable race its limelight.

If instead, there was some further alteration to those Silver Covenant members, embracing the Light being the most likely, but maybe there is another cosmic force they could reach out to and become affiliated with. There hasn't been enough time for any sort of physical differences between Blood and High Elves. Void Elves were blasted and changed immediately, Nightborne took thousands of years. Without some other cosmic force being involved, there remains no difference between Blood and High Elves.

I don't think there has to be any cosmic force involved, High Elves are shown to not be as reliant on magic as their Blood Elf and Void Elf counterparts: The Silver Covenant is mainly depicted as Rangers, there's a group of "Highvale Elves" who have completely given up magic outright. If anything, High Elves give you the "vanilla elf" option to play separate from their Void based and Light based counterparts. Just as "Humans" are the vanilla human and then you can play either a fat human or a cursed human or a dead human as their counterparts.

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As for the "Blue Eyed Blood Elf" comments, as I have said previously, thus far, in game, in lore, in every respect, that is what a High Elf is. Simply stating you want a High Elf to anyone outside of your community is read as you want Blood Elves.

And Blizzard themselves believed this as well, which is why Alliance literally got "Blue Eyed Blood Elves" in the form of Void Elves, who have Blue Eyes and are former Blood Elves. The hope here is that all the artwork/discussion etc after the fact of Void Elf release is showing Blizzard "hey, you guys severely missed point. this is what we've been asking for."

It has been stated several times that isn't what the High Elf community wants, but at no point has anyone explained what difference a High Elf would have as opposed to Blood Elves, even after being asked several times to define a High Elf without Blood Elves with regard to implementation.

It's been stated countless times the differences, you either refuse to acknowledge what's been said or haven't read what's been said. Take the time and read, it's not anyone's responsibility to continually have newcomers to the conversation be shown what's already been discussed to death.

[Neverafter]

I don't think there has to be any cosmic force involved, High Elves are shown to not be as reliant on magic as their Blood Elf and Void Elf counterparts: The Silver Covenant is mainly depicted as Rangers, there's a group of "Highvale Elves" who have completely given up magic outright. If anything, High Elves give you the "vanilla elf" option to play separate from their Void based and Light based counterparts. Just as "Humans" are the vanilla human and then you can play either a fat human or a cursed human or a dead human as their counterparts.

Vanilla Human, Fat Human, Cursed Human and Dead Human are still differences. Blue Eyed Elf that shares the body of a Blood Elf is not. Dark Iron have tattoos and unique hairstyles that weren't present before. They make sense though. They summoned Ragnaros, have a close relationship with fire, why not have fireheards and hair.

This isn't the case with High Elves. Theres no Arcane/Light/Shadow/Fire/Frost any defining characteristic that would separate how a Blood Elf looks in lore to a High Elf. That is the reason for some outside force to be involved.

And Blizzard themselves believed this as well, which is why Alliance literally got "Blue Eyed Blood Elves" in the form of Void Elves, who have Blue Eyes and are former Blood Elves. The hope here is that all the artwork/discussion etc after the fact of Void Elf release is showing Blizzard "hey, you guys severely missed point. this is what we've been asking for."

Which is exactly why Blizzard will be very cautious with any addition they may implement with regards to High Elves.

It's been stated countless times the differences, you either refuse to acknowledge what's been said or haven't read what's been said. Take the time and read, it's not anyone's responsibility to continually have newcomers to the conversation be shown what's already been discussed to death.

I have followed this discussion. Very closely. Stop condescending and talking down to everyone simply because they disagree with you and point out the flaws in your reasoning.

Void Elves are far from "Blue Eyed Blood Elves". They were inundated with Void, you quest and find out their history, etc. Barring some outside cosmic force, you are still stuck with a Blood Elf model with blue eyes. Silver Covenant, Hunter's Lodge, wherever you want to pull them from, it is going to look and act like a Blood Elf.

[FlubberPuddy]

Vanilla Human, Fat Human, Cursed Human and Dead Human are still differences. Blue Eyed Elf that shares the body of a Blood Elf is not. Dark Iron have tattoos and unique hairstyles that weren't present before. They make sense though. They summoned Ragnaros, have a close relationship with fire, why not have fireheards and hair.

This isn't the case with High Elves. Theres no Arcane/Light/Shadow/Fire/Frost any defining characteristic that would separate how a Blood Elf looks in lore to a High Elf. That is the reason for some outside force to be involved.

You presented it with humans, "Vanilla human, Fat Human, Cursed Human, Dead Human". I mean, what is making the "Vanilla human" vanilla? I'd like to see an answer to this.

For the Thalassians it'd be "Vanilla Elf, Light Elf, Void Elf". See the High Elves don't have to be changed by some outside force because its their brethren that have been changed by an outside force already.

But if it's that sufficient, please look at the models that showcase a more athletic build for High Elves since they're not as reliant on magic compared to their brethren. The suggestions put forth for High Elves makes sense because they're not as city-dwelling nor as pompous as the Blood Elves. Just like how you said the customization given to Dark Irons make sense.

High Elves, having groups less reliant on magic, being more often depicted as Rangers (hell just look at Alleria - visually that's High Elf aesthetic smack dab in your face), and grouping around lodges and even the Silver Covenant pledge themselves to the Hunter Order Hall rather than the Mage Order Hall of Dalaran.

A WC2 aesthetic of the Elven Ranger is fitting and makes sense for High Elves. Just as there's two types of Arcane Elves now on the Horde, there can be two types of Nature Elves on the Alliance.

Which is exactly why Blizzard will be very cautious with any addition they may implement with regards to High Elves.

Yes they will be, which is why this conversation hasn't been decided by Blizzard any which way yet and why they're encouraging the discussion on the topic.

I have followed this discussion. Very closely. Stop condescending and talking down to everyone simply because they disagree with you and point out the flaws in your reasoning.

It's not condescending to state if you don't know the differences that's been shared by now then it's you not acknowledging them or haven't been reading them. Since you're stating you followed the discussion closely, it can only be your refusal to acknowledge what's been said.

This also makes you look silly for then stating "you guys haven't talked about any differences" as if you weren't following the conversation very closely.

Void Elves are far from "Blue Eyed Blood Elves". They were inundated with Void, you quest and find out their history, etc. Barring some outside cosmic force, you are still stuck with a Blood Elf model with blue eyes. Silver Covenant, Hunter's Lodge, wherever you want to pull them from, it is going to look and act like a Blood Elf.

Void Elves are very much "Blue Eyed Blood Elves" as Ion's statement of "if you want to play a light-skinned, blue eyed, majestic elf...sorry, the horde is waiting for you." If he's stating that it can be assumed Void Elves are as such also, considering they literally are previous Blood Elves and literally have Blue Eyes.

it is going to look and act like a Blood Elf.

This bit is already false given the High Elves as they are now, don't even have the same voice lines as Blood Elves. This is Blizzard's effort to help show the differences between the two groups.

Even Ion stated the Blood Elves and High Elves have different eye colors and different relationship to magic in regards to the Sunwell. A point he makes that a lot of people seem to ignore or hand-wave away.

[Aldo Hawk]

This is obviously the biggest problem of the request and why this has got too long to be discussed.

We want High Elves, not Light Elves, Thunder Elves, Fire Elves, Nature Elves, Coolmagic Elves, etc...

It's the Alliance Thalassian what is being requested and that's why most of the suggestions doesn't involve such drastic changes. Because if they end up doing... water elves or whatever it's better for them to not do nothing, since Void elves are already enough of an aspull as it gets.

Simple and plain Alliance alligned Thalassian elves, those who we already know, those that were already there, those that we were familiar with.

And that suggestion is open for changes except if it becomes something near or similar to Void Elves.

Of course this is controversial.

[AngerFork]

This is obviously the biggest problem of the request and why this has got too long to be discussed.

We want High Elves, not Light Elves, Thunder Elves, Fire Elves, Nature Elves, Coolmagic Elves, etc...

It's the Alliance Thalassian what is being requested and that's why most of the suggestions doesn't involve such drastic changes. Because if they end up doing... water elves or whatever it's better for them to not do nothing, since Void elves are already enough of an aspull as it gets.

Simple and plain Alliance alligned Thalassian elves, those who we already know, those that were already there, those that we were familiar with.

And that suggestion is open for changes except if it becomes something near or similar to Void Elves.

Of course this is controversial.

This then leads me to wonder, are you more interested in the race design/aesthetic, the storyline of the Alliance Thalassian, or something else entirely?

For instance, let's say Blizz came to you with two specific suggestions to get this race in the game? For the first one, Alliance races are playable on Horde and vice versa. In this, you get the straight up Blood Elf model with High Elf style eyes added. For the second one, a storyline is put in place where the High Elves join with the Void Elves, but keep largely their same aesthetic. Some things change (hair styles), skin tone stays largely the same, but the story of the High Elves is continued as part of the Void Elf storyline. Which do you prefer, or are both unacceptable? If the latter, why are both unacceptable?

[FlubberPuddy]

This then leads me to wonder, are you more interested in the race design/aesthetic, the storyline of the Alliance Thalassian, or something else entirely?

Both. It doesn't have to be one or the other. And your specific suggestions aren't the only ones Blizzard can come to High Elf fans with.

If it seems complex to understand what High Elf fans want just use the Wildhammer Dwarves.

Bronzebeards are playable, they're not Wildhammer Dwarves, their story isn't Wildhammer Dwarves, sharing fair skin is moot because racials, heritage armor, mounts are all in the context of Bronzebeard dwarves who live within mountains.

Dark Iron definitely don't fit this either, despite being another aspect of the 3 council of hammers.

People want to play that last portion of the council of hammers.

Same thing bringing it back to High Elves.

Blood Elves are playable, they're not High Elves, their story isn't High Elves, sharing fair skin is moot because of racials, heritage armor, mounts are all in the context these elves who held onto their city, utilized fel magic, and joined the Horde.

Void Elves definitely don't fit either, despite being another Thalassian elf. They're corrupt, they're former Blood Elves, their story isn't the High Elf story.

And before someone gets snarky and comments "but they all share High Elf history". No shit, so did all 3 dwarves, that doesn't mean their histories didn't diverge to where they're 3 separate groups now. I still expect to see it though, some people just can't help but be purposely inane.

[Aldo Hawk]

This then leads me to wonder, are you more interested in the race design/aesthetic, the storyline of the Alliance Thalassian, or something else entirely?

For instance, let's say Blizz came to you with two specific suggestions to get this race in the game? For the first one, Alliance races are playable on Horde and vice versa. In this, you get the straight up Blood Elf model with High Elf style eyes added. For the second one, a storyline is put in place where the High Elves join with the Void Elves, but keep largely their same aesthetic. Some things change (hair styles), skin tone stays largely the same, but the story of the High Elves is continued as part of the Void Elf storyline. Which do you prefer, or are both unacceptable? If the latter, why are both unacceptable?

You know that both aren't desiderable because you took the minimum amount of bothering to read about what is being requested, so yes, both of these cases aren't desiderable.

What i'm interested about is bringing to the players another unplayable alliance member to their character creation screen, as they did with Dark Iron Dwarves which was fantastic in this regard.

- - - Updated - - -

And before someone gets snarky and comments "but they all share High Elf history". No shit, so did all 3 dwarves, that doesn't mean their histories didn't diverge to where they're 3 separate groups now. I still expect to see it though, some people just can't help but be purposely inane.

Yeah well they are gonna be against it and make biased arguments, as it has to be of course.

However... Those biased arguments are easily dismantled with just a bit of imagination put on them.

One of the most common arguments is that they were separated by only (i don't remember well) 15 or 20 years.

Well, is that an impediment or something? Obviously not since there is something called story development which they do constantly and things happen even if they are not telling since most of wow lore is in some kind of standby state until it is retaken. 15/20 years are a lot of years of things happening and time is not a stagnant thing, years keeps passing

And if someone thinks that 15/20 years 'are nothing' for an elf... That's from an anthropological life expectancy view, 15 years are the same for everyone.

[AngerFork]

Both. It doesn't have to be one or the other. And your specific suggestions aren't the only ones Blizzard can come to High Elf fans with.

If it seems complex to understand what High Elf fans want just use the Wildhammer Dwarves.

Bronzebeards are playable, they're not Wildhammer Dwarves, their story isn't Wildhammer Dwarves, sharing fair skin is moot because racials, heritage armor, mounts are all in the context of Bronzebeard dwarves who live within mountains.

Dark Iron definitely don't fit this either, despite being another aspect of the 3 council of hammers.

People want to play that last portion of the council of hammers.

Same thing bringing it back to High Elves.

Blood Elves are playable, they're not High Elves, their story isn't High Elves, sharing fair skin is moot because of racials, heritage armor, mounts are all in the context these elves who held onto their city, utilized fel magic, and joined the Horde.

Void Elves definitely don't fit either, despite being another Thalassian elf. They're corrupt, they're former Blood Elves, their story isn't the High Elf story.

And before someone gets snarky and comments "but they all share High Elf history". No shit, so did all 3 dwarves, that doesn't mean their histories didn't diverge to where they're 3 separate groups now. I still expect to see it though, some people just can't help but be purposely inane.

Agreed that they aren't the only ones by a long shot Blizz can come up with. There are plenty of other ones, including just straight up making them an Allied Race. My question was less about finding the specific answer (I see flaws with both) and more about finding the underlying specific reason behind the desire. Is it more about the aesthetic look of the High Elves, more about wanting Veressa and the High Elves to have more of a story, more about the RP purposes, or something else? As straight up adding High Elves as a new Allied Race is unlikely without at least a UI & design change (which I frankly think should happen anyhow) to go with it, it's worth looking at the other options IMO to really get the idea of what this should be across. And as the post I was responding to stated it was open to changes unless it became something similar to Void Elves, it seems fitting to find out the base desires before fully making suggestions.

I suppose the best way to describe my second option using your Wildhammer example would be as follows. A questline is set up where perhaps Aerie Peak gets destroyed by N'Zoth. The player evacuates the Wildhammer to Ironforge, which is already open to them due to the Council of Three Hammers. From here, customization options are open with all of the Wildhammer tattoos and designs open to all Dwarves, so you effectively are playing as a Wildhammer Dwarf with story matching as to why they are there. Mag'har Orcs do this quite well with various skin tones representing different clans.

You know that both aren't desiderable because you took the minimum amount of bothering to read about what is being requested, so yes, both of these cases aren't desiderable.

What i'm interested about is bringing to the players another unplayable alliance member to their character creation screen, as they did with Dark Iron Dwarves which was fantastic in this regard.

If that's the case, then what was the "open to suggestion" part about? It read to me like you were open to suggestions about how Alliance Thalassian might best fit in as a playable race, which seemed to leave the window open to other ways to make them playable that wasn't just putting them in as a full fledged Allied Race. Hence my question, trying to find the base level of what you might be looking for to see if there was a way that didn't affect the other Allied Races already coming into the game (blocking out a spot for the Worgen/Undead Allied Race variant, making two same-faction Allied Races with highly similar body types, etc).

[Aldo Hawk]

If that's the case, then what was the "open to suggestion" part about? It read to me like you were open to suggestions about how Alliance Thalassian might best fit in as a playable race, which seemed to leave the window open to other ways to make them playable that wasn't just putting them in as a full fledged Allied Race. Hence my question, trying to find the base level of what you might be looking for to see if there was a way that didn't affect the other Allied Races already coming into the game (blocking out a spot for the Worgen/Undead Allied Race variant, making two same-faction Allied Races with highly similar body types, etc).

The problem with integrating similar groups into one single playable race is that you are basically making them the same thing.

This can be easily seen with the Mag'har AR, on which they simply took the Draenor orcs, made like a 30 year (i think) time lapse due to timey wimey thing with alternate universes and made them live under the same roof, creating a new society of orcs where their differences are only those of the clans they came from.

This cannot be with Void elves and High elves, since their differences are too big for that, and mixing both playable options in one would basically broke what both of them are.

If they do it like when you select Void elf you can turn it -completely- (racials, voices, classes, NPC and world interaction, heritage armor, racial mount, racial exclusives, etc...) into a High elf, i would accept it since it would simply be selecting one race and having some kind of a display between two.

The problem i see with it is that they could end up doing a halfway of it and could end up ruining both Void elves and High elves. And even if i don't like Void elves i do like this game so much even for a race that i don't like to become ruined.

It's also important to remember that they said future allied races don't have to come necessarily in pairs or be equally distributed to both factions, so one faction could end up with one or even two allied races more than the other.

And about the 'open to suggestions' part... I just want to see the Alliance Quel'dorei made playable. Anything that can be developed on them that doesn't drive out of the most basic concept of what they are is something i can mostly accept.

[FlubberPuddy]

Agreed that they aren't the only ones by a long shot Blizz can come up with. There are plenty of other ones, including just straight up making them an Allied Race. My question was less about finding the specific answer (I see flaws with both) and more about finding the underlying specific reason behind the desire. Is it more about the aesthetic look of the High Elves, more about wanting Veressa and the High Elves to have more of a story, more about the RP purposes, or something else? As straight up adding High Elves as a new Allied Race is unlikely without at least a UI & design change (which I frankly think should happen anyhow) to go with it, it's worth looking at the other options IMO to really get the idea of what this should be across. And as the post I was responding to stated it was open to changes unless it became something similar to Void Elves, it seems fitting to find out the base desires before fully making suggestions.

They haven't ruled out adding High Elves "as is", it was answered in the context of going with Void Elves. Obviously after releasing Void Elves they're not going to immediately or soon come out with another Elf. Just like we all know someone would have to be off their rocker to think we're going to get another dwarf, human, orc, draenei, troll, etc so soon.

Ion meant what he said, "no plans in the near term for High Elves as an Allied Race". And further expanded what "near term" went when met with FarstriderRaven from Helf Discord at Blizzcon 2018, "just because they're not in bfa doesn't mean they won't be in wow ever, "the door hasn't closed".

The reason I bring this up is because if people start trying to focus on suggestions with an assumption of anything less than playing the current High Elves in the Alliance or their legacy (through Half-elves, which is even more unlikely because Blizz stated there's not much lore on half-races) then the High Elf fans can run into another situation like the Void Elves.

You're trying to piece apart what's most important, but relegating it to being one thing and the purpose of this request is to hit all the marks:

- Loyal High Elves (like Vereesa, Silver Covenant, Highvale, Allerian Stronghold etc)
- Alliance aligned

Both are important. If you take off playable High Elves you get the already playable Void Elves on Alliance. If you take off the Alliance portion and Loyal High Elves portion you end up with the already playable Blood Elves on Horde.

There isn't much splicing to be done.

I suppose the best way to describe my second option using your Wildhammer example would be as follows. A questline is set up where perhaps Aerie Peak gets destroyed by N'Zoth. The player evacuates the Wildhammer to Ironforge, which is already open to them due to the Council of Three Hammers. From here, customization options are open with all of the Wildhammer tattoos and designs open to all Dwarves, so you effectively are playing as a Wildhammer Dwarf with story matching as to why they are there. Mag'har Orcs do this quite well with various skin tones representing different clans.

And this is what I meant in an earlier post, you're merely looking at the visuals, when those Wildhammer in your suggestion would be locked out of using their own racials, their own heritage armor, their own unique mount, and hub area.

I guarantee this wouldn't be satisfying to Wildhammer Fans. Mag'har Orcs don't "do this quite well" because they were designed from the get-go to encase multiple clans which is also reflected in their racials, armor, and mount as well. It's cohesive because it's an amalgam of orc tribes.

Shoe-horning in Wildhammer into Bronzebeards doesn't give the same effect.

[DeicideUH]

Continuing my theory on BfA's last patch and the void elves betraying the Alliance and trying to turn the high elves...

I wonder if Vereesa's Hearthstone card is hinting at future developments. Things like tortollans and blood elf golden eyes were first introduced in Hearthstone before being made canon.

I know her eyes are glowing with arcane power here, but pink and purple can look alike, and I wonder if this couldn't be what a "voided high elf" could be somewhat like. Also, Thori'dal is Halduron's weapon in WoW, so I wonder if she won't get it in a future storyline (maybe the Quel'thalas warfront or something).



On another note, void elf tabard depicts an icon that looks kinda like N'Zoth's iconography:



I can't shake the idea that they'll go Wrathgate on us.