Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Aucald]

I would strongly disagree with the conclusion that they are distinct.

Blood Elves are High Elves. There is no difference in terms of culture and society between a modern Blood Elf and a High Elf of twenty years ago. In fact, in the vast majority of cases, the Blood Elves are the High Elves of twenty years ago.

Everything that defines what a High Elf is culturally is Blood Elven. Control of the Kingdom of Quel'thalas, control of the Magisters, the Reliquary, the Farstriders which are aped by the Silver Covenant, control of the Sunwell, control of the isle of quel'danas, control of Silvermoon city itself.

It is these other groups you mention, they just aren't viable alteratives. To argue they are distinct nationalities and societies is reaching. The Silver Covenant relies on the charity of Dalaran as they go about as wannabe Farstriders with their own Ranger General. Highvale is a hut, it's a nice hut as huts go, but it can't be seen as a nexus of high elf civilization...it's just a bunch of outdoorsy types living rough in the fringes of their kingdom whilst sticking two fingers up at the new regimé back home.

And the Allerian Stronghold elves were just a few elves in a primarily human settlement. We don't know where they've gone since the portal reopened and the outland campaign concluded. It's plausible many of them went back home.

If there is any difference to be found between an Alliance High Elf and a Blood Elf, it is the one Elisande pointed out, that they are diluting their bloodlines through their association with humans. At which point you may as well skip adding Alliance High Elves and just add Half Elves to fully realise that particular idea.

Overall, that really is the fundamental objection to the idea of Alliance High Elves. Not silhouettes, and that clearly hasn't been an issue since the Pandaren. It is the idea put forward by the pro High Elf community that those tiny groups of theirs are more authentic High Elves than the Blood Elves are, despite the clear degradations within those groups when contrasted with the, well, majesty of the Blood Elves.

If, as Blizzard has confirmed, Blood Elves ARE High Elves and if, as I have demonstrated, everything that defines what a High Elf is in the wider imagination is Blood Elven, then what can an Alliance High Elf be but a usurper of that role? And what entitles them to this claim in the view of the pro High Elf community?

That they are on the Alliance and not the Horde. That the Alliance somehow enables them to be the 'true' High Elves of the franchise, to claim that High Elves are not playable because there are no High Elves on the Alliance, that Void Elves aren't good enough because they don't match the aesthetic and the culture of what a High Elf is despite being a high elf variant crafted specifically for them. That is the threat Alliance High Elves pose to the Blood Elf racial identity, that is why they should not be added in their own right.

I don't believe it is too much to ask that while the factions are a thing, they are respected and that remain viable choices. If you want to play a traditional High Elf, that is a Blood Elf and you can join the Horde. If you cannot stomach the Horde, a variant high elf is available for you on the Alliance that was created specifically for that faction whilst respecting the integrity of the Horde faction and the identity of the Blood Elves. Things are therefore at their most equitable.

I would actually say the recent schism is more what sets them apart now - rather than making an argument of shared historicity, I would argue the more recent separation. The High Elves of the Silver Covenant and Alllerian Stronghold (which I will just call "exiled High Elves" for simplicity moving forward) have altered their heraldry; adopting blue/silver as opposed to the original red/gold solar motifs that they once had, or the red/black motifs the Blood Elves now favor. Socially as well they have moved somewhat away from their Arcane focus, given that the core of the modern exiled High Elves are likely not Magisters but rather formed more predominantly from Farstriders and members of the Priesthood of the Light (both of which seemed to be the stronger opponents of Rommath's practices such as Mana Tapping).

The dire straits of their society, such as their reliance on Dalaran's charity as well as the paucity of their settlements is even more of a defining trait - they don't have a homeland unlike their Sin'dorei peers. The High Elves on the other side of schism are effectively refugees and exiles, unwelcome in Quel'Thalas and alternatively too proud or too vengeful to forgive the Sin'dorei for the original schism and return to the fold, so to speak. Given Auric's appearance and character in WotLK during the Quel'delar questline I would say it is unlikely his people has reintegrated with the Sin'dorei, and the words of some NPC's within the Allerian Stronghold speak to a pretty open opposition to the practices of the Sin'dorei (e.g. holding the same grudge that Silver Covenant members do).

I don't disagree that racially speaking, or in terms of heritage, that Blood Elves are High Elves - I simply maintain that the schism between the two factions of High Elves, in the form of the expulsion of those who refused to adopt Rommath's practices to protect them from Arcane addiction, has resulted in two distinct and discrete factions which could constitute the core of two playable races. The exiled High Elves having a deeper closeness to Humanity and/or adopting cultural elements from Humanity is actually another defining trait that sets them apart from their more traditional brethren as well.

In my view "Blood Elves are High Elves" is a true statement that doesn't really define a strong lore-centric reason for these two factions not to be realized as distinct and discrete. Prior to the Void Elves include as a playable race I would've argued that silhouette and population would've been your main reasons not to include the exiled High Elves as a playable race - but the Void Elves' inclusion diminished both of those rationales: they are both few in number and silhouette-wise they are the exact same as the playable Blood Elves. Zandalarai Trolls are Trolls, Highmountain Tauren are Tauren, Void Elves are High Elves, and Nightborne are Night Elves - all those statements are equally true and yet those Allied Races remain a playable subset of their larger, overarching groups.

The faction argument, or what I like to think of as the balance argument, is pretty much the only argument remaining to prohibit their inclusion. The Horde has Nightborne (a Night Elf analog) as well as the Blood Elves, whereas the Alliance has the actual Night Elves and now the Void Elves (a High Elf analog), keeping a balance between the extractions of Elves. Adding the exiled High Elves to the Alliance, or to the Horde, throws this off somewhat and makes it unlikely unless *another* derivative of Elven extraction is created (which seems unlikely).

I don't disagree with the argument of equity, in that sense, I just disagree with the lore-related assertion that the two factions of High Elves aren't distinct enough.

[Doffen]

I have denied that Void Elves are High Elves in the past. And I will do so here again. Void Elves are not High Elves. Yet at the same time I have said that Void Elves are another flavour of High Elves. This is used by yourself as an example of my dishonesty.

Yet I have also explained why I can make both statements and why both are true. That your previous response isn't in good faith is not because you disagree with me, but because you disregarded the nuance of my explanation whilst at the same time acknowledging you know what I mean.

So to put it even more succinctly, when I say Void Elves are not High Elves, what I mean is that Void Elves are not High Elves in the same way most people have a mental image of High Elves. Fair skinned, blonde haired, majestic, magical elves. That isn't a Void Elf.

On the other hand, Void Elves ARE High Elves because they are transformed members of that race, another flavour of High Elf as Ion put it in the first interview, and something like a Blood Elf as he put it in the Q and A.

So Void Elves are High Elves on a racial level, albeit altered. But they are not High Elves when it comes to the cultural and aesthetic aspects that define what a High Elf is. If someone asserts that Void Elves are High Elves, that the faction wall is in fact completely broken as a result and that Alliance High Elves could therefore do no damage, that person is wrong, a Void Elf is not a High Elf in that sense. If someone says that Void Elves are another flavour of High Elf, something that is genuinely different from a Blood/Alliance High Elf yet remaining on a spectrum of 'high elfdom' then in that case yes, Void Elves are High Elves.

It is all about nuance and context and I do not appreciate your attempts to force me to conform to an either/or position to prove a point. My position is, as detailed above, more complex than that.

And Alleria is not a retort. She is a hero character, she is unique. As Anduin is unique as a sword wielding, plate armor wearing priest. Hero characters aren't bound by the same rules as player characters are. Alleria also had a specific lore behind her transformation in that she ate the heart of a fallen Naaru. Fallen Naaru are extremely rare, but if any who wish to become a Void Elf are capable of finding one and eating it's heart, then they are capable of becoming a Void Elf as she is. Remember, it is not me saying Alleria is a void elf. Alleria herself terms herself a Void Elf in the Void Elf opening quest text. As she defines herself as a Void Elf, as she has a Void Elf form, as she wields the power of the void, then she is a void elf.

You are wrong on most points, but I have told you why a few times so I'll just go cliche and say that we can agree to disagree. And I dont care what you appreciate or not, this is not your personal blog so you might not like everything people write on these forums.

[ravenmoon]

Yeah, it's a difficult situation. However, helping the Shal'dorei was a quest with the objective of defeating Elisande and by extension, the Legion. It was not just to free and help them, however just by being in need, we, as heroes, help them. Political issues are something the players don't get to have an essay on.

However, I think the idea of a factionless wow is interesting and I would like to see it in action. No more factions getting in the middle of the storytelling.

Indeed, I look forward to this the most, it should ublock the silly hurdles, but can they recover and write interesting and engaging interactions.. especially the ones without conflict, and showing conflict in other areas but with reosluitons, not an endless no stalemate, some lead to war, and some lead to peace and prosperity, they need to show the peae and prosperity too as well as the war. In Warcraft you will always have war somewhere, but the eky to a complete story is that it isn ot the case every where all the time.

So the elves who have had a conflict heat since they did them in wow, well it's time for them to find some way to recover from all their tragedy and destruction - it's time to see them get peace and prosperity, let another race be victim. And that's how you do it, while some are in trouble, some are doing well, so you have a bit of both all the time.

[Ielenia]

So lets try to recap:

- Will they happen: Nope, blizz stated it.

I think it's worth mentioning about this "Blizzard said 'no'" that Blizzard has also said "no" for over a decade regarding Vanilla WoW servers.

[FlubberPuddy]

I think it's worth mentioning about this "Blizzard said 'no'" that Blizzard has also said "no" for over a decade regarding Vanilla WoW servers.

A year or so ago I once saw a poster on MMO-C whose signature had listed all the things that "Blizzard said no to" in the past and that were in the game. I regret not keeping a screenshot of that or something because it's surprising to me how many people think what Blizzard states at one point in time stays that way forever going forward.

- - - Updated - - -

In my view "Blood Elves are High Elves" is a true statement that doesn't really define a strong lore-centric reason for these two factions not to be realized as distinct and discrete.

First, love all that you wrote. Very well written and showing true understanding of what the Pro-side is asking for while also maintaining the realities of the situation overall.

To me the saying "Blood Elves are High Elves" as used by Ion and some opposers to this request is being used as a misnomer to misrepresent the request.

You have it very correct, the pro side wants the Elves such as the Silver Covenant, Allerian Stronghold, Highvale, etc to be playable. This group in-game is always referred to as "High Elves" but they are also a race of High Elves.

Blood Elves are only ever referred to as Blood Elves, but they are also a race of High Elves. Same for Void Elves - they are a race of High Elves, but only referred to as Void Elves.

I feel that Ion and some others when using the phrase "Blood Elves are High Elves" are deliberately misrepresenting the request to not deal with it at all, especially in the recent (relatively) release of Void Elves.

It is an attempt to move attention off the groups of "Exiled High Elves" that exist such as the Silver Covenant/Allerian/Highvale who have been shown to oppose their Sin'dorei brethren and not even be welcomed back into their kingdom of origin. These Exiled High Elves who have continued to maintain their loyalty to the Alliance and never have it waver.

Saying and utilizing "Blood Elves are High Elves, so High Elves are playable" is deliberately missing the point of the request in order to not deal with what's truly being asked.

If it was obviously just about the race "High Elf" being playable then the Pro-side already has two choices with which to do that. It's no different than those who are asking for Wildhammer Dwarves or Forest Trolls to be playable. They do not care that two races of dwarves or two races of trolls are already playable, they want to play a specific grouping/faction/subset of dwarves/trolls and so make their requests for it.

It is not about "usurping the image that Blood Elves hold" as some may imply in their rhetoric. This argument actually makes the Blood Elves identity seem fragile, if people can't handle another similar looking elf to them. As we all know that Night Elves on Alliance are still the OG Night Elves of the game, and Nightborne are a variant. Their variant purple skin tones don't diminish their identities.

The same will hold true for if High Elves get added, just because they'd be a variant on a fair skin elf doesn't diminish the identity of Blood Elves, but it feels like those who oppose High Elves getting added feel this way. Reason being I've always seen them have no issue with Void Elves whose only major difference is not having a fair skin tone.

Of course for equity sake another elf would be added, and the San'layn have been propped up as being a popular Horde choice.

Regardless, this is all "for the future" discussion. Nothing we'll see resolved in BFA is what I mean. We'll just have to see how Blizzard handles Allied Races going forward and if the next iterations post-BFA will be same-races (elves, trolls, dwarves, orcs, tauren) or different (along the lines of Vulpera etc).

[Obelisk Kai]

I would actually say the recent schism is more what sets them apart now - rather than making an argument of shared historicity, I would argue the more recent separation. The High Elves of the Silver Covenant and Alllerian Stronghold (which I will just call "exiled High Elves" for simplicity moving forward) have altered their heraldry; adopting blue/silver as opposed to the original red/gold solar motifs that they once had, or the red/black motifs the Blood Elves now favor. Socially as well they have moved somewhat away from their Arcane focus, given that the core of the modern exiled High Elves are likely not Magisters but rather formed more predominantly from Farstriders and members of the Priesthood of the Light (both of which seemed to be the stronger opponents of Rommath's practices such as Mana Tapping).

The dire straits of their society, such as their reliance on Dalaran's charity as well as the paucity of their settlements is even more of a defining trait - they don't have a homeland unlike their Sin'dorei peers. The High Elves on the other side of schism are effectively refugees and exiles, unwelcome in Quel'Thalas and alternatively too proud or too vengeful to forgive the Sin'dorei for the original schism and return to the fold, so to speak. Given Auric's appearance and character in WotLK during the Quel'delar questline I would say it is unlikely his people has reintegrated with the Sin'dorei, and the words of some NPC's within the Allerian Stronghold speak to a pretty open opposition to the practices of the Sin'dorei (e.g. holding the same grudge that Silver Covenant members do).

I don't disagree that racially speaking, or in terms of heritage, that Blood Elves are High Elves - I simply maintain that the schism between the two factions of High Elves, in the form of the expulsion of those who refused to adopt Rommath's practices to protect them from Arcane addiction, has resulted in two distinct and discrete factions which could constitute the core of two playable races. The exiled High Elves having a deeper closeness to Humanity and/or adopting cultural elements from Humanity is actually another defining trait that sets them apart from their more traditional brethren as well.

In my view "Blood Elves are High Elves" is a true statement that doesn't really define a strong lore-centric reason for these two factions not to be realized as distinct and discrete. Prior to the Void Elves include as a playable race I would've argued that silhouette and population would've been your main reasons not to include the exiled High Elves as a playable race - but the Void Elves' inclusion diminished both of those rationales: they are both few in number and silhouette-wise they are the exact same as the playable Blood Elves. Zandalarai Trolls are Trolls, Highmountain Tauren are Tauren, Void Elves are High Elves, and Nightborne are Night Elves - all those statements are equally true and yet those Allied Races remain a playable subset of their larger, overarching groups.

The faction argument, or what I like to think of as the balance argument, is pretty much the only argument remaining to prohibit their inclusion. The Horde has Nightborne (a Night Elf analog) as well as the Blood Elves, whereas the Alliance has the actual Night Elves and now the Void Elves (a High Elf analog), keeping a balance between the extractions of Elves. Adding the exiled High Elves to the Alliance, or to the Horde, throws this off somewhat and makes it unlikely unless *another* derivative of Elven extraction is created (which seems unlikely).

I don't disagree with the argument of equity, in that sense, I just disagree with the lore-related assertion that the two factions of High Elves aren't distinct enough.

Yet that argument appears to be that all is required for an Allied race is a good story, that that is sufficient. After all, while you argue that Blood Elves being High Elves is not enough of a barrier for Alliance High Elves to be recognised as 'distinct and discrete', the logic you base that on can be expanded outwards. On that basis I could argue that the Defias Brotherhood Humans are a good candidate for an Allied race. After all, they have a compelling backstory of how they were pawns in the schemes of Onyxia, how they were betrayed by the nobility of the city of Stormwind, how they were driven from the city and are hated because of their participation in the events that led to the death of Queen Tiffin and how they now lead a lawless existence on the fringes of society, ekeing out an existence despite the opposition of Stormwind.

Now, we have a distinct group of Humans with a compelling backstory. You can apply the same logic to the Grimtotem Tauren who follow Magatha, or the Dragonmaw Orcs who followed Zaela, distinct groups with compelling backstories that you cannot play. Why should the logic that could be applied to Alliance High Elves to make them distinct and discrete not be applied to these groups?

But we both accept it won't be. Because beyond this apparently compelling backstory, that is redundant in the fact of the fact that Humans, Tauren and Orcs are already available to play. You need something MORE to be an Allied race candidate, you need a genuine, tangible difference between the parent race and the variant because there is more at play here than lore.

Now I disagree with you that Alliance High Elves can be made distinct and discrete. We've had enough comments from enough official sources over the years to know that they simply don't have the numbers to form a viable population and if we are primarily discussing lore, then that fact has to be borne in mind. They are fragmented and degrading. They are what the still canon Warcraft encyclopedia described as "They are a very small group of individuals scattered all over the world. As such, they do not have common opinions or goals. Indeed, modern high elves cannot even truly be said to have a culture--only a past filled with glory and regret."

You yourself validate this statement, by listing Allerian Stronghold elves, Quel'danil Elves and Silver Covenant Elves. A population that is far lower than even that of that Gnomes, and they can be divided into three groups with seemingly differing agendas and motives...scattered all over the world, not having common opinions or goals in fact.

But leaving that all aside, lore is just one facet of why Alliance High Elves were rejected by Blizzard and the corollary, why Void Elves were created in their place. Void Elves are not High Elves as may people see High Elves...but they ARE a type of High Elf. A variant. Just as all the allied races who are based off an existing race are a variant on that template. But Alliance High Elves ARE High Elves as people see High Elves. And Blood Elves ARE High Elves as people see High Elves. They are not similar, as most parent race-allied race combos are, they are identical. They fill the exact same conceptual space. Alliance High Elves therefore are making a core Horde race de facto neutral (in the sense that the race is shared between two factions) and as has been well established by the Pandaren precedent, that comes with a cost in terms of faction diversity that just isn't worth it.

- - - Updated - - -

You are wrong on most points, but I have told you why a few times so I'll just go cliche and say that we can agree to disagree. And I dont care what you appreciate or not, this is not your personal blog so you might not like everything people write on these forums.

No, you really haven't told me why. You are attempting to establish an either/or dichotomy answer in order to force a result more akin to your liking. Either I say Void Elves are High Elves, in which case you accuse me of changing my tune and/or bowing to your superior logic or I say Void Elves are not High Elves in which case you accuse me of being ignorant of the lore in general.

My actual answer, that there are complexities and nuance involved and it isn't so neat as that, doesn't seem to satisfy you and instead illicited a 'I'm right, your wrong response'. Forgive me if I treat that response with the respect it deserves.

So I reiterate. Void Elves are NOT High Elves as most peoples conceive of High Elves, but Void Elves are a type of High Elf unique to the Warcraft franchise.

If you are tired of arguing me with it, perhaps you can discuss with Aldo or other pro High Elf commentators who insist that Void Elves are not High Elves as to why they are wrong?

[Aldo Hawk]

High Elves are playable as Blood Elves as confirmed by Chris Metzen, Ion Hazzikostas and every single primary source in the game.

A High Elf variant is playable as Void Elves. Void Elves are a form of High Elf, but they are not High Elves in terms of aesthetics or culture. They are their own thing on many levels.

The concern is not about them being similar to Blood Elves. Void Elves are similar to Blood Elves. Similarity is a word that implies a level of difference. The concern is that Alliance High Elves are identical to Blood Elves and therefore undermine the faction identity of the Horde and the racial integrity of the Blood Elves. To say that concern is nonsensical is itself a nonsensical statement, as that is the precise concern Alliance High Elves were rejected over.

There are no visual differences between the two groups. All skin tones used on High Elf NPCs are available to Blood Elves. The blue eye colour is not a marker of difference, as the appearance of golden eyes proves eye colour among thalassian elves can change relatively easily depending on the magical ambience they are exposed to. Alliance High Elves are not physically, aesthetically or culturally distinct from Blood Elves. They are exactly a carbon copy.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Taela_Everstride#Quotes

And the Pandaren example has been deployed so often I have a rote response for it. That Pandaren were designed as neutral and implemented as neutral with no faction having a prior claim on them, that they proved the concept of neutrality failed, that Blizzard was not comfortable with the loss of faction diversity that resulted from Pandaren, that Blizzard has not implemented any race as neutral since despite several opportunities to do so, that there are no neutral Allied races and that Alliance High Elves were rejected on the grounds of their impact on faction diversity, which is exactly what a neutral race would inevitably do and thereby proves they regard neutral races as not worth it.

The only legitimate concern is about them being similar to Blood elves but in the Alliance, and that in itself is nonsensical.

Simply, without thinking much about it, there are already visual differences between the two, and no Allied Race that has existed prior it's implementation got introduced without any kind of development or addition to the existing assets and aesthetics. This is why Pandaren are the perfect example. They are an actual 'neutral' (in the gameplay sense of that word) race that is the exact same 1:1 in both factions that also share the exact same path from the selection screen to the moment they choose a faction and after that they keep having the exact same E V E R Y T H I N G. They ARE the carbon-copy you so much whined about. High elves -cannot- be a 'carbon-copy'.

A High elf Allied Race simply -cannot- have or do that, and nobody wants it to have or do that.

Also, any other comment apart from the 'I'm not a fan' from Ghostcrawler?

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Aurora_Skycaller

Aurora Skycaller, an Elf who lived at Quel'lithien lodge and who vanished when the lodge was destroyed by the inhabitants messing around with magical artefacts they shouldn't have been.

From "In the Shadow of the Sun"

""The Sunwell is thus returned to us," Aurora said. She turned her face to the window.
"Yes," Lor'themar replied.
The Plaguelands' absolute, dead silence fell across them. Lor'themar bowed his head,
reliving his own moment of comprehension, when the last dust of battle had settled on
Quel'Danas and the Sunwell had shone majestic and proud once again. He had stared into it with
the same paralyzed expression that had now etched itself into Renthar's and Aurora's faces, and
had found no joy in its glow. He had never dreamed the price of its return could be too much to
pay.
Aurora's voice startled him. "I had wondered why the pangs of the addiction felt so eased
lately. I have not needed... help... to cope."
"The magic in the Sunwell is different now," Lor'themar said. "It may take a while for some
to adjust."
"Some, yes." Aurora reached her hand up and seemed to grasp something that Lor'themar
could not see, twisting it between her fingers as if it were a long ribbon. "I am a priestess of the
Light. I know this magic."

That does not prove Aurora or any High elf using the light powers from the heart of M'uru.

Why would Alliance High Elves NOT have an identical connection to the Sunwell as the Blood Elves? As has been defined time and time and time again, much to your clear chagrin and denial, Blood Elves and Alliance High Elves are racially identical. For seven thousand years, every High Elf was bathed in it's radiance, sustained by it's power, and they developed a connection to the well.

Being the same race =/= Doing the same things.

You are clearly not aware about the schism in the use of the light between High elves and Blood elves.

High elves have never been harmonized with the heart of M'uru and they still use the light the same way they always did, by being classical priests and paladins.

And in case anyone labours under the misconception that you need to visit the Sunwell in order to partake of it's powers, that this is the reason for the pilgrimages and that the Alliance High Elves may have been blocked by the Blood Elves and thus have used 'meditation' or 'willpower' in order not to succumb, that's not how the Sunwell works.

I didn't said that.

In the 'Blood of the Highborne' novella, the Sunwell was revealed to have an infinite range that transcends time, space and even reality. No matter where the Elf is, as long as they are an unaltered thalassian elf, they have a connection to the Sunwell. Aurora, the light wielding priest, senses the change after all. And Blood of the Highborne was written by Chris Metzen himself after all.

I didn't denied nor mention that.

Alliance High Elves have an addiction, same as the Blood Elves because they are the same people. And even if they weren't taught how to channel through M'uru, that clearly isn't a requisite for being able to channel the power of the Sunwell post restoration.

Never denied them not having an addiction.

High elves don't draw the light from the Sunwell, they are classical paladins and priests. Blood knights do because of their harmonization with the heart of M'uru.

A political difference again.

Yes, being against the enslaving of a being of pure light to use it's powers forcibly is political. No morality is involved at all.

Goddamn you are truly obsessed with politics.

Wait and you think the Blood Elves don't? You should listen to Lady Liadrin in the warfront, she's a proper zealot now.The Blood Elves found their faith in the light again, and having a light based Sunwell greatly aids their ability to wield the powers of the light, but Alliance High Elves clearly have access to the same powers as In the Shadow of the Sun proves, and they mere fact that they have a connection to the well is enough to sate their addiction. As stated, the Sunwell's range is infinite. A thalassian High Elf can as much avoid being bathed in it's energies and being nourished by them as they can avoid the light of the sun...in both cases, only by taking refuge in the shadow.

High elves don't use the Sunwell to cast the light, they never aligned themselves with the light of M'uru, not before nor after the Sunwell's destruction and restoration.

Shadow of the sun shows that they have felt that the nature of the Sunwell's energies changed. That is not proof that High elves uses it's light energies.

The only different relationship with magic we have evidence is for is the that which caused the initial philosophical split, whether to drain mana from living beings or not and that has been resolved. It also happens to be common knowledge amongst most players that that is what the division was about. Citing a different relationship with magic is unsurprising. Trying to invent other different relationships with magic, as you are doing here, is an attempt to pretend Alliance High Elves and Blood Elves are profoundly different groups when not only is that not the case, but the answer Ion was giving when he mentioned their 'different relationship with magic' was about how Alliance High Elves didn't happen because BLOOD ELVES ARE HIGH ELVES. The small differences he cites aren't justification of how Alliance High Elves can be their own things, it's part of a small list of things the Game Developer is saying is inconsequential to the overall decision, that Blood Elves ARE playable High Elves.

Invented? Can anyone cite anything about High elves using the light from the Sunwell?

Ion mentioned their different relationship with magic and the Sunwell because... They have a different relationship with magic and the Sunwell? Perhaps? Maybe is just simple as that?

[Aucald]

Yet that argument appears to be that all is required for an Allied race is a good story, that that is sufficient. After all, while you argue that Blood Elves being High Elves is not enough of a barrier for Alliance High Elves to be recognised as 'distinct and discrete', the logic you base that on can be expanded outwards. On that basis I could argue that the Defias Brotherhood Humans are a good candidate for an Allied race. After all, they have a compelling backstory of how they were pawns in the schemes of Onyxia, how they were betrayed by the nobility of the city of Stormwind, how they were driven from the city and are hated because of their participation in the events that led to the death of Queen Tiffin and how they now lead a lawless existence on the fringes of society, ekeing out an existence despite the opposition of Stormwind.

I wouldn't actually argue that, at least not based on the precedent already pre-established. The Defias Brotherhood does indeed have all the makings of an Allied Race in the same way the Kul Tirans do - though I'd say they would need a little more iteration (like the Kul Tirans received).

Now, we have a distinct group of Humans with a compelling backstory. You can apply the same logic to the Grimtotem Tauren who follow Magatha, or the Dragonmaw Orcs who followed Zaela, distinct groups with compelling backstories that you cannot play. Why should the logic that could be applied to Alliance High Elves to make them distinct and discrete not be applied to these groups?

Same as above, really. I never claimed it couldn't or even shouldn't be applied, so I'm not really sure why that would be an issue.

But we both accept it won't be. Because beyond this apparently compelling backstory, that is redundant in the fact of the fact that Humans, Tauren and Orcs are already available to play. You need something MORE to be an Allied race candidate, you need a genuine, tangible difference between the parent race and the variant because there is more at play here than lore.

Probably not, but that really isn't an issue one way or the other. We are discussing possibilities and not likelihoods, at least not insofar as my particular context in concerned. I think you could easily add tangible variation without any kind of issues in terms of the lore that would support it, which is typically what is done for all Allied Races thus far.

Now I disagree with you that Alliance High Elves can be made distinct and discrete. We've had enough comments from enough official sources over the years to know that they simply don't have the numbers to form a viable population and if we are primarily discussing lore, then that fact has to be borne in mind. They are fragmented and degrading. They are what the still canon Warcraft encyclopedia described as "They are a very small group of individuals scattered all over the world. As such, they do not have common opinions or goals. Indeed, modern high elves cannot even truly be said to have a culture--only a past filled with glory and regret."

I don't think viability via population is really compelling argument now with the inclusion of the Void Elves, who as a small splinter-group of Blood Elves would probably be much less numerous than the exiled High Elves - and, to our knowledge, have no way of even propagating their numbers. The question of culture has already been covered, and the aegis of any playable race allows for a number of variances in any given culture (even one based on past glory and shared regrets).

You yourself validate this statement, by listing Allerian Stronghold elves, Quel'danil Elves and Silver Covenant Elves. A population that is far lower than even that of that Gnomes, and they can be divided into three groups with seemingly differing agendas and motives...scattered all over the world, not having common opinions or goals in fact.

The Void Elves also have a population far lower than the Gnomes, possibly even far lower than the High Elves themselves, and yet are represented a playable race. Bringing the exiles of Quel'Thalas together under a unifying banner would also be a great narrative mechanism for introducing as an Allied race (much in the same manner as the Highmountain tribes were unified in the events of Legion).

But leaving that all aside, lore is just one facet of why Alliance High Elves were rejected by Blizzard and the corollary, why Void Elves were created in their place. Void Elves are not High Elves as may people see High Elves...but they ARE a type of High Elf. A variant. Just as all the allied races who are based off an existing race are a variant on that template. But Alliance High Elves ARE High Elves as people see High Elves. And Blood Elves ARE High Elves as people see High Elves. They are not similar, as most parent race-allied race combos are, they are identical. They fill the exact same conceptual space. Alliance High Elves therefore are making a core Horde race de facto neutral (in the sense that the race is shared between two factions) and as has been well established by the Pandaren precedent, that comes with a cost in terms of faction diversity that just isn't worth it.

Lore was the primary reason for my responding in the first place, so beyond that I'm not going to put any more irons in the fire. I think your "variant" argument applies equally to both the Void Elves and the High Elven exiles, though. As the Void Elves have embraced the Void, the High Elven exiles have rejected Mana Tapping - as the Void Elves have become reliant on Alleria and Locus-Walker, so are the High Elven exiles reliant on the Kirin Tor or the greater Alliance. I don't think them being "identical" can stand on the face of it, and we've already acknowledged multiple ways in which they're different from society, to culture, to political affiliation. In a lore sense, as history might put it, "they're a new nationality, they require a new nation." They don't fill the same conceptual space by dint of the very reason they're exiles in the first place - they refused cultural shift that ultimately impelled the Sin'dorei to join the Horde, and as such kept or renewed their historical ties to the Alliance. A number of gameplay reasons, as previously stated, still exist that make their inclusion unlikely in my opinion - but lore isn't one of them.

[Ielenia]

Now I disagree with you that Alliance High Elves can be made distinct and discrete. We've had enough comments from enough official sources over the years to know that they simply don't have the numbers to form a viable population and if we are primarily discussing lore, then that fact has to be borne in mind.

You and I both know that this reasoning does not work because the lore of the game is not static, it is ever-changing. Just like Blizzard wrote into being a completely new tribe (sorry, tribes) of tauren and a whole capital city worth of highborne in Legion, so more high elves could be written into the game. What if there are more high elves in a yet undiscovered (i.e. not yet written in lore) landmass? Also, we brought mag'har orcs from another dimension. Why can't we bring high elves from another dimension, for example? Possibilities exist. Aplenty.

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Lore was the primary reason for my responding in the first place, so beyond that I'm not going to put any more irons in the fire. I think your "variant" argument applies equally to both the Void Elves and the High Elven exiles, though. As the Void Elves have embraced the Void, the High Elven exiles have rejected Mana Tapping - as the Void Elves have become reliant on Alleria and Locus-Walker, so are the High Elven exiles reliant on the Kirin Tor or the greater Alliance. I don't think them being "identical" can stand on the face of it, and we've already acknowledged multiple ways in which they're different from society, to culture, to political affiliation. In a lore sense, as history might put it, "they're a new nationality, they require a new nation." They don't fill the same conceptual space by dint of the very reason they're exiles in the first place - they refused cultural shift that ultimately impelled the Sin'dorei to join the Horde, and as such kept or renewed their historical ties to the Alliance. A number of gameplay reasons, as previously stated, still exist that make their inclusion unlikely in my opinion - but lore isn't one of them.

This reminds me of an idea I posited several pages ago. The high elves, refusing to drain mana from living beings to sate their thirst, could have opted to train their bodies physically to resist the physical effects of the withdrawal. That's one lore explanation I came up with to justify differences in posture, and likely slight model differences, akin to the model differences between nightborne and night elves.

[Doffen]

No, you really haven't told me why. You are attempting to establish an either/or dichotomy answer in order to force a result more akin to your liking. Either I say Void Elves are High Elves, in which case you accuse me of changing my tune and/or bowing to your superior logic or I say Void Elves are not High Elves in which case you accuse me of being ignorant of the lore in general.

My actual answer, that there are complexities and nuance involved and it isn't so neat as that, doesn't seem to satisfy you and instead illicited a 'I'm right, your wrong response'. Forgive me if I treat that response with the respect it deserves.

So I reiterate. Void Elves are NOT High Elves as most peoples conceive of High Elves, but Void Elves are a type of High Elf unique to the Warcraft franchise.

If you are tired of arguing me with it, perhaps you can discuss with Aldo or other pro High Elf commentators who insist that Void Elves are not High Elves as to why they are wrong?

Told you why in every post almost. You not wanting to understand them is not my fault. Your arguments doesn't work either, you are arguing with yourself. Contradicting arguments shows that you aren't being honest with either those you argue with, or yourself. If you really want the respect you think you deserve, then don't be disingenuous.

I am not tired of arguing with you, I guess you are, seeing you suddenly get so defensive. There are no complexities, Void Elves are High Elves seeing they are Blood Elves who went through the Void. It's very easy to understand, your description of a High Elves in any other fantasy doesn't apply here, we are talking about Warcraft High Elves. You are trying to make a point that makes no sense.

Void Elves are High Elves, that's it. You even said so yourself, then you did a u-turn and said you didn't. Why I don't know, but I can think of some reasons.

If anyone doesn't agree with me that Void Elves are High Elves, then they can quote me and say they are not. I have already said I agree that Blood Elves are High Elves, just as Alliance High Elves and Void Elves are. Common sense beats feels. The lore tells us this, why anyone argue this I can't fathom.

[FlubberPuddy]

Yet that argument appears to be that all is required for an Allied race is a good story, that that is sufficient. After all, while you argue that Blood Elves being High Elves is not enough of a barrier for Alliance High Elves to be recognised as 'distinct and discrete', the logic you base that on can be expanded outwards. On that basis I could argue that the Defias Brotherhood Humans are a good candidate for an Allied race. After all, they have a compelling backstory of how they were pawns in the schemes of Onyxia, how they were betrayed by the nobility of the city of Stormwind, how they were driven from the city and are hated because of their participation in the events that led to the death of Queen Tiffin and how they now lead a lawless existence on the fringes of society, ekeing out an existence despite the opposition of Stormwind.

Now, we have a distinct group of Humans with a compelling backstory. You can apply the same logic to the Grimtotem Tauren who follow Magatha, or the Dragonmaw Orcs who followed Zaela, distinct groups with compelling backstories that you cannot play. Why should the logic that could be applied to Alliance High Elves to make them distinct and discrete not be applied to these groups?

But we both accept it won't be. Because beyond this apparently compelling backstory, that is redundant in the fact of the fact that Humans, Tauren and Orcs are already available to play. You need something MORE to be an Allied race candidate, you need a genuine, tangible difference between the parent race and the variant because there is more at play here than lore.

I would argue these examples don't work and Alliance High Elves do is because those examples you've used are "one and done stories" of those groups. The Defias storyline for example is explored and dealt with in their Vanilla Introduction, mayhaps resurfaced a little in Cataclysm but taken in a different direction and ideals (I believe Vanessa VanCleef's story differs from Edwin's).

What more story has been shown to continue with that background you displayed on them? What of your other examples, have Grimtotem Tauren who follow Magatha been relevant since their inception? What have they done in Legion or BFA? How about the Dragonmaw Orcs who follow Zaela, what was their relevancy as a concentrated group in recent expansions aside from the ones they were introduced in?

See the Alliance High Elves while some were present in Vanilla, TBC showed their Alliance loyalties and schism with Blood Elves, Wrath followed this up with the introduction of the Silver Covenant, then Cataclysm has them dealing with a personal racial matter independent of Horde or Alliance (independent as Lor'themar didn't want them there), then Mists of Pandaria showcases this same group (Silver Covenant) commit the Purge of Dalaran against their Blood Elf brethren. Follow that up to Legion again to show the Silver Covenant joining in the Suramar Liberation effort and taking up Arms in the Hunting Lodge.

This is one group (Silver Covenant) that since their inception have been relevant across multiple expansions, not just disparate different groups of High Elves. Those would be such as you present the Allerian and Highvale Elves who are disparate groups of High Elves.

The Silver Covenant alone has been relevant to multiple expansions past their introduction expansion.

This is the major distinction that sets Alliance High Elves playable request apart from the examples you used, their relevancy to the Alliance efforts and themselves as a group going forward. It's not "one and done" or "contained" like the other group example stories are.

Not just that, but time and again we see High Elves display loyalty to the Alliance and acting as antagonists to Horde members/groups. But for the examples you utilize, they are antagonistic members to both the Horde and Alliance. Unless you can find for me High Elves as a group that are antagonists to both Alliance and Horde?

[Magnagarde]

There are no story consequences, only exaggerated headcanon consequences.

The obvious story consequences of the blood elves joining Horde stem from the fact that this race was forced into one of the two playable factions because Asian players didn't feel pretty enough while playing Horde.

It was at that point at which claiming that there's some lore-based logic for the blood elves' admission into the Horde stopped making any sense. The Alliance on the other hand has a clear and decades-long continuity when it comes to lore that supports the existence of Alliance-alligned high elves.

That is not to say that I'm ignorant of the fact that a great number of Horde players identify blood elves as essential for the theme of the present-day Horde because they've been around since TBC. This on the other hand also doesn't deny the fact that high elves have been both a lore and ingame reality of the Alliance for much, much longer than that.

[cocomen2]

High elfs can live normally without Sunwell, Blood elfs depend on external source of magic too much.
If some one gona ruin Sunwell for Blood elfs , I bet they would once again use Fel crystals.





Same race , but "before" and "after" use of meth crystals

All Fel users that we seen , undergo some kind transformation (Illidan,Guldan,Satyrs,Green orcs by drinking Mannoroth's blood who already was infused with Fel).

[FlubberPuddy]

The obvious story consequences of the blood elves joining Horde stem from the fact that this race was forced into one of the two playable factions because Asian players didn't feel pretty enough while playing Horde.

It was at that point at which claiming that there's some lore-based logic for the blood elves' admission into the Horde stopped making any sense. The Alliance on the other hand has a clear and decades-long continuity when it comes to lore that supports the existence of Alliance-alligned high elves.

That is not to say that I'm ignorant of the fact that a great number of Horde players identify blood elves as essential for the theme of the present-day Horde because they've been around since TBC. This on the other hand also doesn't deny the fact that high elves have been both a lore and ingame reality of the Alliance for much, much longer than that.

What's funny is the amount of non-lore reasons Blood Elves were added, then the post-stories written afterward to actually flesh them out.

Yet a lot of those against High Elves I often see responding as if the same cannot be done with the High Elves. I often see a lot of "no you cannot change their stories/looks from how they are currently unplayable" yet that's exactly what happened with Blood Elves.

[scubi666stacy]

What's funny is the amount of non-lore reasons Blood Elves were added, then the post-stories written afterward to actually flesh them out.

Yet a lot of those against High Elves I often see responding as if the same cannot be done with the High Elves. I often see a lot of "no you cannot change their stories/looks from how they are currently unplayable" yet that's exactly what happened with Blood Elves.

This is totally irrelevant. Real life comparison: Germany. There has been a separation of the country for some decades. Mind you, much longer than the divide in the Thallasian Elves. And with a much smaller difference in numbers. Now, after the country has been united again, there are some differences in the mindset of the people - due to the different political systems of the divided countries - but that's all. While you can argue that a Saxon and a Bavarian are to some degree different to each other, these differences come from a history which is much longer. Still, the only difference is in the mind.

High Elves are just that. A splinter group which thinks of it to be something else. Not comparable to a divided Germany by huge margins. The difference is negligable. It's just not enough to warrant a new Allied race. Slapping some blue tattoos and gear and changing the eye colour on a Blood Elf is NOT ENOUGH - and everything else could not be explained properly if they don't want to introduce just another Deus Ex Machina device. Heck, even for Alleria, they have chosen a different path. It's obvious that they did not want to leave a loophole for High Elves. It's pretty much headcanon at this point, to demand that this irrelevant, miniscule body of relics should become an Allied race. Especially after the Void Elves have been introduced. Go write your fanfiction and leave the game alone. It does not need any more Elves.

[matrix123mko]

The obvious story consequences of the blood elves joining Horde stem from the fact that this race was forced into one of the two playable factions because Asian players didn't feel pretty enough while playing Horde.

So what? Worgen were added because Alliance wanted edgy race.

It was at that point at which claiming that there's some lore-based logic for the blood elves' admission into the Horde stopped making any sense. The Alliance on the other hand has a clear and decades-long continuity when it comes to lore that supports the existence of Alliance-alligned high elves.

High elves allied with humans only when they needed them. Blood elves can't love humans after Garithos' actions. They joined the Horde because they were accepted in it. It makes more sense than Alliance night elves.

That is not to say that I'm ignorant of the fact that a great number of Horde players identify blood elves as essential for the theme of the present-day Horde because they've been around since TBC. This on the other hand also doesn't deny the fact that high elves have been both a lore and ingame reality of the Alliance for much, much longer than that.

Only if you count renegades who helped Alliance despite Anasterian's decisions.

[scubi666stacy]

I would argue these examples don't work and Alliance High Elves do is because those examples you've used are "one and done stories" of those groups. The Defias storyline for example is explored and dealt with in their Vanilla Introduction, mayhaps resurfaced a little in Cataclysm but taken in a different direction and ideals (I believe Vanessa VanCleef's story differs from Edwin's).

What more story has been shown to continue with that background you displayed on them? What of your other examples, have Grimtotem Tauren who follow Magatha been relevant since their inception? What have they done in Legion or BFA? How about the Dragonmaw Orcs who follow Zaela, what was their relevancy as a concentrated group in recent expansions aside from the ones they were introduced in?

See the Alliance High Elves while some were present in Vanilla, TBC showed their Alliance loyalties and schism with Blood Elves, Wrath followed this up with the introduction of the Silver Covenant, then Cataclysm has them dealing with a personal racial matter independent of Horde or Alliance (independent as Lor'themar didn't want them there), then Mists of Pandaria showcases this same group (Silver Covenant) commit the Purge of Dalaran against their Blood Elf brethren. Follow that up to Legion again to show the Silver Covenant joining in the Suramar Liberation effort and taking up Arms in the Hunting Lodge.

This is one group (Silver Covenant) that since their inception have been relevant across multiple expansions, not just disparate different groups of High Elves. Those would be such as you present the Allerian and Highvale Elves who are disparate groups of High Elves.

The Silver Covenant alone has been relevant to multiple expansions past their introduction expansion.

This is the major distinction that sets Alliance High Elves playable request apart from the examples you used, their relevancy to the Alliance efforts and themselves as a group going forward. It's not "one and done" or "contained" like the other group example stories are.

Not just that, but time and again we see High Elves display loyalty to the Alliance and acting as antagonists to Horde members/groups. But for the examples you utilize, they are antagonistic members to both the Horde and Alliance. Unless you can find for me High Elves as a group that are antagonists to both Alliance and Horde?

Except that all this is part of the Blood Elf Story, and can now be continued via Void Elves.
Again, another delusion.

[Obelisk Kai]

I wouldn't actually argue that, at least not based on the precedent already pre-established. The Defias Brotherhood does indeed have all the makings of an Allied Race in the same way the Kul Tirans do - though I'd say they would need a little more iteration (like the Kul Tirans received).

Yet that is a flaw in the argument, divorcing lore from gameplay. We all know WHY Kul Tirans are an Allied race and why Defias Brotherhood aren't, because Kul Tirans have a completely different build which in turn is represented by a completely different model. Now we can try and rationalise why Kul Tirans look different from ordinary Humans, some have suggested a drop of Vrykul blood, others saying it's a product of their environment and isolation (an explanation I am personally partial too) but that is after the fact that they are now an allied race and they are an allied race because they look different. Had Kul Tirans not been given a unique look, Blizzard wouldn't have given them a second look as an Allied race candidate and would have come up with an alternative in their stead.

Probably not, but that really isn't an issue one way or the other. We are discussing possibilities and not likelihoods, at least not insofar as my particular context in concerned. I think you could easily add tangible variation without any kind of issues in terms of the lore that would support it, which is typically what is done for all Allied Races thus far.

Yet that is, in the end, exactly what they did with the Void Elves. They added a tangible variation to a group of thalassian elves that differentiates them from an already available version. The solution proposed here has therefore already been attempted and was rejected on the grounds that they went too far...too far on a race that can be charitably described as a minor variation on an existing Blood/High Elf. And while for some the objection was that they 'weren't the high elves who stayed with the Alliance', the number of pro High Elven commentators who would be willing to accept Void Elves as long as they were 'fixed' i.e. made to look like Blood/High Elves is enough to draw the conclusion that Void Elves are not unacceptable because of their lore, but because of their look.

I don't think viability via population is really compelling argument now with the inclusion of the Void Elves, who as a small splinter-group of Blood Elves would probably be much less numerous than the exiled High Elves - and, to our knowledge, have no way of even propagating their numbers. The question of culture has already been covered, and the aegis of any playable race allows for a number of variances in any given culture (even one based on past glory and shared regrets).


The Void Elves also have a population far lower than the Gnomes, possibly even far lower than the High Elves themselves, and yet are represented a playable race. Bringing the exiles of Quel'Thalas together under a unifying banner would also be a great narrative mechanism for introducing as an Allied race (much in the same manner as the Highmountain tribes were unified in the events of Legion).

I am sure you have moderated this topic enough to know that there is an outstanding discussion regarding the possibility of Void Elves being able to convert other Elves, based upon comments made by Steven Danuser and the reality in game that the number of Void Elves seen does not match the number of Void Elves who were present at the ritual. Leaving aside that debate here, I believe the evidence shows that they can reproduce by converting adult elves into Void Elves. As a result, the population objection to Alliance High Elves does not apply to Void Elves.

But the population argument is the lore based rationale as to why Alliance High Elves are not playable. I can list off the occasions on which population has been cited as a reason against playable Alliance High Elves, from the Caydiem 2005 post which stated 'In short, High Elves are not playable because there are very few true "High Elves" left—far less so than Gnomes' to the Warcraft encyclopedia commentary discussed earlier to the 2017 comments by Ion Hazzikostas that High Elves do not exist in meaningful numbers. That they keep mentioning it when this topic comes up means something and it cannot be disregarded casually.

The gameplay rationale, which is far more important of course, is that high elves are already playable and adding in a race that was identical to an already existing option is redundant...and adding that race to the opposing faction undermines the distinctiveness of the two factions. Which is the logic that inevitably led to the creation of the Void Elf variant.

Lore was the primary reason for my responding in the first place, so beyond that I'm not going to put any more irons in the fire. I think your "variant" argument applies equally to both the Void Elves and the High Elven exiles, though. As the Void Elves have embraced the Void, the High Elven exiles have rejected Mana Tapping - as the Void Elves have become reliant on Alleria and Locus-Walker, so are the High Elven exiles reliant on the Kirin Tor or the greater Alliance. I don't think them being "identical" can stand on the face of it, and we've already acknowledged multiple ways in which they're different from society, to culture, to political affiliation. In a lore sense, as history might put it, "they're a new nationality, they require a new nation." They don't fill the same conceptual space by dint of the very reason they're exiles in the first place - they refused cultural shift that ultimately impelled the Sin'dorei to join the Horde, and as such kept or renewed their historical ties to the Alliance. A number of gameplay reasons, as previously stated, still exist that make their inclusion unlikely in my opinion - but lore isn't one of them.

Of course, I have to disagree. Void Elves are a genuine variant. They wield unique void based powers. They have unique skin tones, a by-product of their transformation. Some of them are even growing tentacles. The void has warped them entirely, creating a dichotomy with the increasingly light based culture of the Blood/High Elves. To argue Void Elves are equivalent to Alliance High Elves in terms of being variants is akin to saying that the Grimtotem Tauren are as much a variant from the Tauren of Thunder Bluff as the Highmountain Tauren are, or the Taunka, or the Yaungol. I don't agree with that. One is different because of political decisions made, the other has genuinely diverged as a people.

A story just isn't enough. It is definitely a part of it, but it isn't the entirety

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https://wow.gamepedia.com/Taela_Everstride#Quotes

Which is one Alliance High Elf referencing the philosophical issue that precipitated the divide and which was resolved shortly after.

[Also, any other comment apart from the 'I'm not a fan' from Ghostcrawler?

Ion Hazzikostas ruling out Alliance High Elves on the grounds that they would damage faction diversity, which Pandaren definitely did as they were the same race shared between both sides. That is what a neutral race does. If the same race shared between both sides damages faction diversity, and that is the entire point of a neutral race, then that just confirms they don't like neutral races.

That does not prove Aurora or any High elf using the light powers from the heart of M'uru.

The heart of M'uru was used to reignite the Sunwell. No thalassian elf is using the heart of M'uru to wield the light, anymore than someone warming themselves at a fire is being warmed by the match that lit it. They are using both their faith in the light and the Sunwell to wield those powers.

However, this passage comprehensively proves that the High Elves maintain a connection to the Sunwell and there is no rational reason for them not to use it's safe, infinite, light energies to sate their addiction and to aid their magics.

Being the same race =/= Doing the same things.

You are clearly not aware about the schism in the use of the light between High elves and Blood elves.

High elves have never been harmonized with the heart of M'uru and they still use the light the same way they always did, by being classical priests and paladins.

Never denied them not having an addiction.

High elves don't draw the light from the Sunwell, they are classical paladins and priests. Blood knights do because of their harmonization with the heart of M'uru.

The heart of M'uru no longer exists as you describe it. It is now the Sunwell and I guarantee you, every single Alliance High Elf now alive has experience in channeling from it.

I've done some checking and I cannot validate your claim that the Blood Knights draw their energies from the Sunwell to fuel their powers and it alone. Ask CDEV round 1, a collection of questions answered several years, contains the following information

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Ask_CDev#A...wers_-_Round_1

QUESTION: The Blood Knights of Silvermoon lack direction. None of them were seen in Northrend, and it is very unclear whether the Order still exists, or if it's been disbanded. It's also very unclear where the Blood Knights obtain their power, now. It used to be the Naaru but then... remnants of the naaru. Surely these remnants are all but tapped now. Do we obtain power from the Sunwell?

ANSWER: As of the end of the Burning Crusade expansion, blood elves who wield the Light do so through the power of the renewed Sunwell. It is a harmonious relationship, no longer one of discord caused by the blood elves' attempts to bend the Light to their will, which will likely have a positive effect on blood elf society in the long run. Look forward to updates that reflect this change in the Silvermoon and Blood Knight quests.

Mickey Neilsen, a senior writer in 2015, was asked on twitter (https://twitter.com/MickyNeilson/sta...97143083659264)

QUESTION:Hi . Like other Paladins, must Blood Knights have faith in the Light to use it, or CAN they just take it from the Sunwell?TY

ANSWER: The official answer I got was: a mixture of willpower and faith in one's own ability.

BACK to Ask Cdev

QUESTION:Can you please explain how "light" works? The lore states that undead are physically incapable of using the light, much like the Broken, but then we have Forsaken players casting healing spells, and Sir Zeliek in Naxxramas using pseudo-paladin abilities.


ANSWER: Without spoiling too much, we can tell you that wielding the Light is a matter of having willpower or faith in one's own ability to do it.


So, I can confirm that the manner in which the Blood Knights wield the light is the same as every other Paladin in Azeroth, the difference is that they can draw upon the Sunwell too. They are not stealing light from the Sunwell, the Sunwell is simply a vector which they call upon for aid. As Aurora proves, the Sunwell did not discriminate based on political opinion, all thalassian elves are connected to the well. All will, in time, be changed by the well. And there is no reason that the very few light wielding high elves who are still out there won't be able to use the Sunwell to aid them in the same way the Blood Elves can.

Yes, being against the enslaving of a being of pure light to use it's powers forcibly is political. No morality is involved at all.

Goddamn you are truly obsessed with politics.

Because that is all you have. Politics or philosophical differences. Nothing substantial. Because politics, like morality, just boils down to having a different opinion and that is not enough.

Ion mentioned their different relationship with magic and the Sunwell because... They have a different relationship with magic and the Sunwell? Perhaps? Maybe is just simple as that?

Ironic in that the whole reason he was listing these really quite minor points was to then handwave them away as insufficient differences. Because what have you proven even if did turn out that you were correct? That the minor differences judged woefully insufficient to characterize Alliance High Elves as their own distinct people are a thing?

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Told you why in every post almost. You not wanting to understand them is not my fault. Your arguments doesn't work either, you are arguing with yourself. Contradicting arguments shows that you aren't being honest with either those you argue with, or yourself. If you really want the respect you think you deserve, then don't be disingenuous.

I am not tired of arguing with you, I guess you are, seeing you suddenly get so defensive. There are no complexities, Void Elves are High Elves seeing they are Blood Elves who went through the Void. It's very easy to understand, your description of a High Elves in any other fantasy doesn't apply here, we are talking about Warcraft High Elves. You are trying to make a point that makes no sense.

Void Elves are High Elves, that's it. You even said so yourself, then you did a u-turn and said you didn't. Why I don't know, but I can think of some reasons.

If anyone doesn't agree with me that Void Elves are High Elves, then they can quote me and say they are not. I have already said I agree that Blood Elves are High Elves, just as Alliance High Elves and Void Elves are. Common sense beats feels. The lore tells us this, why anyone argue this I can't fathom.

This esoteric argument you keep pushing gets blander and blander which each iteration. There are no complexities? That will come as a surprise to many.

Void Elves are not a Blood/High Elf as the term is commonly understood. That is a fact. The Void transformed them to a degree, had the ritual not been stopped the transformation would have gone even further. The process they went through has been referred to as a transformation, meaning there are differences. You cannot establish a one to one equivalence between a Blood/High Elf and a Void Elf and say they are identical.

Void Elves are a new type of High Elf, a new flavour as Ion put it. But Blueberry Ice Cream isn't vanilla Ice cream.

[Ielenia]

Yet that is a flaw in the argument, divorcing lore from gameplay. We all know WHY Kul Tirans are an Allied race and why Defias Brotherhood aren't, because Kul Tirans have a completely different build which in turn is represented by a completely different model.

This is wrong. You're arguing that Kul'Tiran humans are an Allied Race because they have a different model from Stormwind humans, when it's the other way around: Kul'Tiran humans have a different model because they've been selected to be an Allied Race. Therefore, if high elves are chosen to become an allied race (or a full-fledged new race) then it stands to reason they're likely to undergo a similar treatment.

"Ah, but there are lore reasons for the differences in their builds." This is nothing but post-hoc. "Lore reasons" also exist for ideas to give high elves different builds, as well.

[Aucald]

Yet that is a flaw in the argument, divorcing lore from gameplay. We all know WHY Kul Tirans are an Allied race and why Defias Brotherhood aren't, because Kul Tirans have a completely different build which in turn is represented by a completely different model. Now we can try and rationalise why Kul Tirans look different from ordinary Humans, some have suggested a drop of Vrykul blood, others saying it's a product of their environment and isolation (an explanation I am personally partial too) but that is after the fact that they are now an allied race and they are an allied race because they look different. Had Kul Tirans not been given a unique look, Blizzard wouldn't have given them a second look as an Allied race candidate and would have come up with an alternative in their stead.

Except Kul Tirans weren't demonstrated to have any differences in biology or outward appearance until they became an Allied Race - and we've seen many Kul Tirans before, e.g. the events of WC3: TFT. Jaina, Daelin, the Kul Tiran infantry that occupied Theramore, all of apparent Human stock. Nothing is stopping the developers from adding the same kinds of differentiation to the Defias Brotherhood's members (though I'm hard-pressed to think of why they would), and similarly nothing is stopping them from doing the same to the exiled High Elves. Quite easy to rationalize that their time away from Quel'Thalas or even their refusal to absorb Arcane energy might have had an effect on their physiology. The point is that Kul Tirans were retroactively given a unique look, and not even one that is uniform to its own people - as an argument against, it doesn't have lot to stand on.

Yet that is, in the end, exactly what they did with the Void Elves. They added a tangible variation to a group of thalassian elves that differentiates them from an already available version. The solution proposed here has therefore already been attempted and was rejected on the grounds that they went too far...too far on a race that can be charitably described as a minor variation on an existing Blood/High Elf. And while for some the objection was that they 'weren't the high elves who stayed with the Alliance', the number of pro High Elven commentators who would be willing to accept Void Elves as long as they were 'fixed' i.e. made to look like Blood/High Elves is enough to draw the conclusion that Void Elves are not unacceptable because of their lore, but because of their look.

Void Elves ultimately have about the same differentiation as exists between the Nightborne and the Night Elves, really. Not to say they aren't different enough, but neither are they so starkly different that they fail the silhouette test. I get Void Elves confused with Blood Elves in-game all the time at first blush, the same is true of Nightborne and Night Elves. Personally speaking I think adding "High Elven" customization to Void Elves would be fine, too; though that's neither here nor there as concerns the lore argument.

I am sure you have moderated this topic enough to know that there is an outstanding discussion regarding the possibility of Void Elves being able to convert other Elves, based upon comments made by Steven Danuser and the reality in game that the number of Void Elves seen does not match the number of Void Elves who were present at the ritual. Leaving aside that debate here, I believe the evidence shows that they can reproduce by converting adult elves into Void Elves. As a result, the population objection to Alliance High Elves does not apply to Void Elves.

Still speculative, though; we have no canon sources to demonstrate it can be done, or would be done. Either way, the current population of Void Elves is likely well below that of existing exiled High Elves and Void Elves are currently an Allied Race in good standing. Population is not a strong argument against.

But the population argument is the lore based rationale as to why Alliance High Elves are not playable. I can list off the occasions on which population has been cited as a reason against playable Alliance High Elves, from the Caydiem 2005 post which stated 'In short, High Elves are not playable because there are very few true "High Elves" left—far less so than Gnomes' to the Warcraft encyclopedia commentary discussed earlier to the 2017 comments by Ion Hazzikostas that High Elves do not exist in meaningful numbers. That they keep mentioning it when this topic comes up means something and it cannot be disregarded casually.

The population argument was once a strong argument, I would agree - but that was before the addition of the Void Elves weakened the argument's standing considerably. If a small splinter group of an already small population (e.g. Blood Elves' and the loss of the majority of the population during the Third War) can be a valid playable race, the exiled High Elves would probably certainly apply as well.

The gameplay rationale, which is far more important of course, is that high elves are already playable and adding in a race that was identical to an already existing option is redundant...and adding that race to the opposing faction undermines the distinctiveness of the two factions. Which is the logic that inevitably led to the creation of the Void Elf variant.

By the existing rationale Void Elves are also High Elves. The gameplay rationale as I see is that the inclusion of Void Elves has achieved Elven parity between the factions (e.g. Nightborne and Blood Elves for the Horde, and Night Elves and Void Elves for the Alliance). This parity makes the promotion of the exiled High Elves unlikely, unless another Horde version of Elven extraction were added (Naga, Fal'dorei, etc.) I think this unlikely, but it's unrelated to lore.

Of course, I have to disagree. Void Elves are a genuine variant. They wield unique void based powers. They have unique skin tones, a by-product of their transformation. Some of them are even growing tentacles. The void has warped them entirely, creating a dichotomy with the increasingly light based culture of the Blood/High Elves. To argue Void Elves are equivalent to Alliance High Elves in terms of being variants is akin to saying that the Grimtotem Tauren are as much a variant from the Tauren of Thunder Bluff as the Highmountain Tauren are, or the Taunka, or the Yaungol. I don't agree with that. One is different because of political decisions made, the other has genuinely diverged as a people.

A story just isn't enough. It is definitely a part of it, but it isn't the entirety

You could make the same arguments for the exiled High Elves. They already have different eyes (which was originally what set the Blood Elves and exiled High Elves apart), and this would be simply to iterate on. I agree the Void Elves have a number of differences to set them apart, as well they should, but the same kind of iteration is easy to do for the exiled High Elves. Given that the original differentiation was done solely by eye-color and heraldry, it's easy enough to add further embellishment to further differentiate them. I've seen a number of proof-of-concept fan artwork with a number of ideas to make the exiled High Elves different without changing their lore - from tattoos to different glowing eyes (often purple to associate them further with Dalaran's Arcane motifs) to Half-Elven traits due to their continued closeness to Humans (having models similar to Kalecgos' humanoid form).