Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Musta]

Okay, ty, i concede. Tho the same page says they have no culture, just a glorious past. Well, im not stupid, so i was wrong about the lack of HE details. Im sorry.

[Chain Chungus]

asian thalassian :O

Asian elves confirmed.

Now Blizz just needs to get in touch with Talendrion for some cool designs!

[FlubberPuddy]

Asian elves confirmed.

Now Blizz just needs to get in touch with Talendrion for some cool designs!

Blizzard already has the capability as well:



Alexstrazsa is basically a female Blood Elf body that's modified, and Y'sera too is a modified night elf (though I think her bone structure or w/e is blood elf), and ofc Nozdormu is a modified High elf/Night elf.

This shows us the amount of variation they can do with races while still having them look like a member of that race.

Y'sera obviously looks like a Night Elf, just unique.
Alexstrasza obviously looks like a Blood Elf, just modified skin/eye colors.
Nozdormu is obviously a High Elf, just modified/unique.

It shows that you can change the proportions/looks drastically and still keep the essence of a look. Blizz knows how to do this.

For Nozdormu's look they can easily remove all the dragon related regalia/tattoos and give a more "normal" looking face/size. Boom, male High Elves that look different from Blood Elves but are still looking like a High Elf.

Just like how Y'sera is a different kind of Night Elf both different from playable Night Elves and Nightborne.

And no I do not mean because of their horns or dragon shit like that, (cuz I know some dumbos will go "BuT tHeY r DrGnS!")

They are obviously choosing to look like members of the respective races with their forms. Just like Kalec who basically looks human.

- - - Updated - - -

Better pic for reference:

[Chain Chungus]

Blizzard already has the capability as well:



Alexstrazsa is basically a female Blood Elf body that's modified, and Y'sera too is a modified night elf (though I think her bone structure or w/e is blood elf), and ofc Nozdormu is a modified High elf/Night elf.

This shows us the amount of variation they can do with races while still having them look like a member of that race.

Y'sera obviously looks like a Night Elf, just unique.
Alexstrasza obviously looks like a Blood Elf, just modified skin/eye colors.
Nozdormu is obviously a High Elf, just modified/unique.

It shows that you can change the proportions/looks drastically and still keep the essence of a look. Blizz knows how to do this.

For Nozdormu's look they can easily remove all the dragon related regalia/tattoos and give a more "normal" looking face/size. Boom, male High Elves that look different from Blood Elves but are still looking like a High Elf.

Just like how Y'sera is a different kind of Night Elf both different from playable Night Elves and Nightborne.

And no I do not mean because of their horns or dragon shit like that, (cuz I know some dumbos will go "BuT tHeY r DrGnS!")

They are obviously choosing to look like members of the respective races with their forms. Just like Kalec who basically looks human.

- - - Updated - - -

Better pic for reference:

Honestly, the Nozdormu model would be an awesome one to base it on! And with the Dragon Isles being likely, I think it would be the perfect time to meet the culture that he copied the appearance of (dragons don't invent new forms, they use forms that already exist for diplomacy, etc.).

[Aldo Hawk]

But they are the same. They are a splinter faction who did not want to take the new moniker and who did not want to use specific methods to combat their mana withdrawal problems before the Sunwell was restored. Before the Scourge had overrun Quel'thalas, all of them have been High Elves. Nothing special happened to these people except that the majority first got green glowing eyes, und the some of them got yellow glowing eyes. You know, this is the specialty of Elves, that the colour of their glowing eyes somehow depends on their "mana diet". Just like flamingos get their pink feathers because of things which they eat. Geez...

A different eye glow or colour scheme in clothing is not relevant to define a new race, just like 15 years is nothing more than a blink for such a long-living race. Void Elves are different from both because they are infused with the void. Everything else is splitting hairs.

Oh, look.

Catch this and please REMEMBER IT.

The High elf civilization from before the scourge attack is -not- the same as the one that survived and splintered into the High elves and the loyal to Kael'thas, and, in a much minor quantity, students of Umbric.

They may maintain a name that was the name everyone used back then, but that doesn't mean they are the exact same. Things changed a lot since the scourge attack, and now they -(the High elves)- are a splintered people who dislike the horde and despised the ways their former people took to survive, when there were other methods that didn't involved getting fixes for their addiction with the lives of living beings, enslaving a naaru, and entering in wars to get more power, or even mind controlling people to avoid protests.

Not even the Blood elves with their restored city are now the High elves they once were. Imagine the High elves, who escaped to the Alliance, or got exiled and don't live on their land anymore. They live in Alliance lands, with people from the Alliance. They want Silvermoon to become Alliance, not to return there while it's horde territory.

This is why saying that because they have the same name all their people had back then, it means they are the same.

The only thing in that they are the same is the race or whatever you want to call it. On the other hand, fel made changes to the Blood elves that the High elves didn't suffered and they live different lives in different places. It's like saying that we should have not got Kul'tiran because we have humans and these are also humans (OBVIOUSLY before we even knew they were going to make new human models). And the best part is that High elves would not need such a drastically different model, because they already have visual differences in the body that can be developed on.

Maybe High elves had a slightly different ear shape, maybe they were paler than the pale tones we have seen, maybe they had hair colors that can no longer be manifested in Blood elf's bodies, maybe they also had purple eyes, maybe they now wear tattoos or regalia that signifies ownership to the group of those who still call themselves High elves... Or anything that involves a: 'High elves look like this when not affected by fel radiation' and even body changes due to the different approach to the addiction.

So many options and so many possibilities that are lore friendly. Just take into account that High elf models were done just at the same time as Blood elf ones, and they, not being playable, just got the minor visual differences according to lore. That doesn't mean it can't be developed on if the appearance is too similar for the taste of some people.

[Obelisk Kai]

You misunderstand - in this particular instance I am not making a claim one way or the other. I am talking about the specific terms addressed above, not the rolling debate that has been going on for some time. In gameplay terms, "race" is completely arbitrary - it can be a species boundary, it can be an ethnic boundary, it can an entirely abstract boundary, etc. etc. What truly separates the "races" in WoW are game mechanics like racial abilities, starting locations, and class limitations (and perhaps playability and non-playability). A "variant," genuine or not, is just as arbitrary. But as long as we know what we're talking about, we can talk about it instead of talking past one another using different versions of the terms.

It is not completely arbitrary however. For most of the game's lifespan, most of the divisions were predicated on being actually different races. A Tauren is not an Elf, and an Elf is not a Human.

Allied races introduced another possible division, that of being an ethnic variant of an already playable race. Hence Highmountain Tauren, Void Elves and Lightforged Draenei.

Yet those are the only two we have concrete evidence for, species and ethnic. I would argue that the definition for race should be restricted to what Blizzard, through the races it introduces to the game, shows us what they consider to be the definition of race.

This rules out races being defined by 'an entirely abstract boundary' which seems to include the political distinction that separates High Elven exiles from the Blood Elves. After all, while a Pandaren player can choose which faction to embrace as a part of their levelling process, they are not regarded as separate races as a result of that choice, and are regarded as one people.

[Aucald]

It is not completely arbitrary however. For most of the game's lifespan, most of the divisions were predicated on being actually different races. A Tauren is not an Elf, and an Elf is not a Human.

Allied races introduced another possible division, that of being an ethnic variant of an already playable race. Hence Highmountain Tauren, Void Elves and Lightforged Draenei.

Yet those are the only two we have concrete evidence for, species and ethnic. I would argue that the definition for race should be restricted to what Blizzard, through the races it introduces to the game, shows us what they consider to be the definition of race.

This rules out races being defined by 'an entirely abstract boundary' which seems to include the political distinction that separates High Elven exiles from the Blood Elves. After all, while a Pandaren player can choose which faction to embrace as a part of their levelling process, they are not regarded as separate races as a result of that choice, and are regarded as one people.

Ultimately, from a purely gameplay position, the reason I say it is arbitrary is because it is entirely subject to what the developers want - and what they want, will permit, or what they define is entirely subject to their whims. This line can and has changed, and it can change again one way or the other. It's a fictional setting, and so it is arbitrary. An ethnicity can also be defined as a difference in cultural tradition, which pretty aptly circumscribes the High Elven exiles - they're obviously a quite different culture in their refusal to adopt the Blood Elves' use of Mana Tapping during TBC and now with their refusal to recognize Silvermoon's new allegiance to the Horde. In a world dominated by two superpower factions a society's choice of faction allegiance is a pretty significant cultural stamp, I would argue. But again, this is neither here nor there as concerns the above - it is still objectively arbitrary from the stance of the game systems.

[Obelisk Kai]

Ultimately, from a purely gameplay position, the reason I say it is arbitrary is because it is entirely subject to what the developers want - and what they want, will permit, or what they define is entirely subject to their whims. This line can and has changed, and it can change again one way or the other. It's a fictional setting, and so it is arbitrary. An ethnicity can also be defined as a difference in cultural tradition, which pretty aptly circumscribes the High Elven exiles - they're obviously a quite different culture in their refusal to adopt the Blood Elves' use of Mana Tapping during TBC and now with their refusal to recognize Silvermoon's new allegiance to the Horde. In a world dominated by two superpower factions a society's choice of faction allegiance is a pretty significant cultural stamp, I would argue. But again, this is neither here nor there as concerns the above - it is still objectively arbitrary from the stance of the game systems.

That Blizzard CAN change something is not particularly pertinent to the debate at hand in my opinion. We are debating what constitutes a race right now from what we know and the two lines we have are biological and ethnic. It also took a considerable amount of time for them to accommodate the ethnic shift, with sub-races being requested for well over a decade before the Allied race system was actually introduced, which implies the shifting of the lines is not something done on a whim.

It is also worth pointing out that when Blizzard did do a neutral race, the Pandaren, they did not allow you to choose a Huojin or Tushui Pandaren from the get go from the character creator, but instead respected their own lines and created a neutral starting experience that allowed the player to decide their faction only after a shared ten levels. While the shared experience was one of the primary motives in creating a neutral race for both sides, in terms of saving time and money, it also implicitly recognized that political division is not enough on it's own to divide a people into two races. The choice for Pandaren reflects they are one people.

And of course, as goes without saying, the Pandaren experiment of a neutral race was ultimately regarded as a failure by Blizzard with the damage done to faction diversity being the chief reason it has not been repeated.

[Aldo Hawk]

After all, while a Pandaren player can choose which faction to embrace as a part of their levelling process, they are not regarded as separate races as a result of that choice, and are regarded as one people.

A High elf would not start in Quel'thalas, or any land where they had to share with the Blood elves.

High elves would not be placed next to Pandaren on selection screen, nor in a similar position on the allied race list.

It would be just the next one on the Alliance banner in the Allied race section.

This is why Pandaren are just one single 'race choice', and not the unrealistic, made up reasons Kai have just invented on the fly to justify a nuance on his favor in some strange way.

The 'evidence' got by the 'definition of race' supposedly presented on the character selection screen will always be flawed and unreal.

Some few years ago this exact line of thinking would have ruled out Allied races entirely under the premise that: 'All races presented are totally different from one another so that is the criteria and evidence that determines what is considered a playable race and, therefore, only distinct and unique races can be added, no recolors, no reskins, no variants'.

[FlubberPuddy]

Honestly, the Nozdormu model would be an awesome one to base it on! And with the Dragon Isles being likely, I think it would be the perfect time to meet the culture that he copied the appearance of (dragons don't invent new forms, they use forms that already exist for diplomacy, etc.).

Yeah I'd love for them to base Alliance's High Elves off Nozdormu's model! It would also make sense since we know from the Encyclopedia that many High Elves used meditation as a way to deal with their mana withdrawal coupled with the fact that a lot of the High Elves we see out and about are typically rangers. It could be their "iconic" body look and is way different from the Blood Elves.

[Aucald]

That Blizzard CAN change something is not particularly pertinent to the debate at hand in my opinion. We are debating what constitutes a race right now from what we know and the two lines we have are biological and ethnic. It also took a considerable amount of time for them to accommodate the ethnic shift, with sub-races being requested for well over a decade before the Allied race system was actually introduced, which implies the shifting of the lines is not something done on a whim.

No, it is not pertinent to your historical argument in this thread, but it is pertinent to the post I recently made that you've been responding to. The time it takes them to shift their position in any direction has no bearing on its ultimate arbitrary nature, either. It is entirely at their discretion, and thus at their whim if they so choose.

It is also worth pointing out that when Blizzard did do a neutral race, the Pandaren, they did not allow you to choose a Huojin or Tushui Pandaren from the get go from the character creator, but instead respected their own lines and created a neutral starting experience that allowed the player to decide their faction only after a shared ten levels. While the shared experience was one of the primary motives in creating a neutral race for both sides, in terms of saving time and money, it also implicitly recognized that political division is not enough on it's own to divide a people into two races. The choice for Pandaren reflects they are one people.

The difference between the Houjin and Tushui Pandaren is both philosophical as well as political, given their choices of faction allegiance. The shared experience, while nice for the Pandaren as a people within the narrative, isn't really material in my opinion. The two Pandaren "races" within the game are still divided by their politics and their philosophy for approaching life.

And of course, as goes without saying, the Pandaren experiment of a neutral race was ultimately regarded as a failure by Blizzard with the damage done to faction diversity being the chief reason it has not been repeated.

That is true, but many arguments have been forth as to why that case isn't entirely applicable vis-à-vis the Blood Elves and High Elven exiles. I don't personally consider the Pandaren option a failure, myself; but that's not my distinction to make. Nor do I think the developers are either inerrant or objectively correct in several of their own conclusions about the game. The argument to authority is not generally how I approach this concern.

[FlubberPuddy]

That Blizzard CAN change something is not particularly pertinent to the debate at hand in my opinion. We are debating what constitutes a race right now from what we know and the two lines we have are biological and ethnic.

Nope, and this proves Aucald's point even further. What you are debating are "playable races" . Just because say Taunka are not playable doesn't mean they aren't a race in so far as WoW is concerned.

And what Blizzard considers a "playable race" is completely arbitrary because they do not all follow the same rules. I can make a White Draenei right now who would be similar to a Lightforged Draenei sans yellow eye color, yet it's the yellow eye color that is separating the LF Draenei from the regular Draenei. But this isn't followed with Blood Elves for example - who received Golden Eyes are still members of its same playable race.

You can make a Dark skin/Red eye Dwarf to makeshift your "Dwarf race" as a Dark Iron, but Dark Iron are still truly a separate category. Now that Classic is out the resemblance is even more crazy, your dwarf character in Classic can very easily look like a Dark Iron Dwarf.

Blizzard have gone on record for stating that Kul Tirans are Humans therefore they don't even consider Kul'Tirans a separate race but put them into a separate "playable race" category.

And this has been the whole point of Aucald's recent posts, if we aren't settling on the terms we're discussing it's just going to be a bunch of talking past one another thinking "I have the correct definition".

Besides, other than CM Ornyx, there hasn't been an actual clarification of what races mean other than his post:https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...9267207#post-6

Where he pretty much states, "it's more that when you play a Human or a Blood Elf, or any other race for that matter, your character comes from a specific "faction" within that race."

"Playable Humans are always from the nation of Stormwind. Playable Blood Elves are always from Silvermoon."

This is also why you will never get the High Elf experience players are asking for just by "making a Blood Elf". Because the Blood Elf starting experience is not the story High Elven members of the Alliance went through at all.

[Aldo Hawk]

Yeah I'd love for them to base Alliance's High Elves off Nozdormu's model! It would also make sense since we know from the Encyclopedia that many High Elves used meditation as a way to deal with their mana withdrawal coupled with the fact that a lot of the High Elves we see out and about are typically rangers. It could be their "iconic" body look and is way different from the Blood Elves.

Yeah, anything that could make sense is welcomed.

Take a look at my idea of mixing 'retrospective' developing with current history developing for their appearance.

A mix of fel untainted, different dealing High elf. It would be lore friendly, give a better concept for both groups, and solve the 'looking the same' problem some people 'have'.

Ielenia's idea of hard trained High elves in order to combat withdrawal also matches the High elf's overall military fantasy. Trained to overcome addiction they maintained these routines even after Sunwell's restoration so they are always prepared for battle.

They could even make them willingly cut themselves off the Sunwell in some final way to distance themselves from their former land, maybe leaving some kind of scar, or even giving a meaning to the tattoo idea. Magical runes meant to be used to cut the High elves' conection with the Sunwell. But in this case every one of them would have to wear them. Which is not a really big deal if you ask me.

[FlubberPuddy]

Yeah, anything that could make sense is welcomed.

Take a look at my idea of mixing 'retrospective' developing with current history developing for their appearance.

A mix of fel untainted, different dealing High elf. It would be lore friendly, give a better concept for both groups, and solve the 'looking the same' problem some people 'have'.

Ielenia's idea of hard trained High elves in order to combat withdrawal also matches the High elf's overall military fantasy. Trained to overcome addiction they maintained these routines even after Sunwell's restoration so they are always prepared for battle.

They could even make them willingly cut themselves off the Sunwell in some final way to distance themselves from their former land, maybe leaving some kind of scar, or even giving a meaning to the tattoo idea. Magical runes meant to be used to cut the High elves' conection with the Sunwell. But in this case every one of them would have to wear them. Which is not a really big deal if you ask me.

Both of those sound very interesting and welcome. Anything that makes sense for the High Elves to be further differentiated from Blood Elves I'd welcome (if Blizzard truly believes there isn't enough differences already).

Look at the point where we are now, about half-way through BFA and the Void Elves have done shit all of note, barely anyone is discussing their lore (because they have none/barely received a scrap) since their inception yet often I see High Elves are still being talked/debated about. More people care about High Elves than Void Elves, even those that oppose them care more about putting the energy forth toward High Elf talk than Void Elf talk lol.

[Ielenia]

That Blizzard CAN change something is not particularly pertinent to the debate at hand in my opinion.

Actually, it is pertinent to this debate because, at the root of it, this thread is about wanting Blizzard to change things.

The reason I think you're trying to assert it's not is because "Word of God" is one of, if not THE most used argument you have used in this thread, and the idea that Blizzard can change things, especially their minds, goes directly against "Word of God" arguments.

And of course, as goes without saying, the Pandaren experiment of a neutral race was ultimately regarded as a failure by Blizzard with the damage done to faction diversity being the chief reason it has not been repeated.

I think this is rather dishonest to assert. Yes, the pandaren situation is generally regarded in a bad light by Blizzard, but they have never gone in detail as to why.

• Was it because the pandaren are a "true neutral race"? As in, same starting zone for them before splitting when choosing factions.
• Was it because the pandaren have the exact same class choices?
• Was it because the pandaren have the exact same racials?

If it was any of all of those three, or even all three, then the same reasoning would not apply to playable high elves, since high elves are unlikely to have the same starting zone as the blood elves, are unlikely to have the same class choices as the blood elves, and are unlikely to have the same racials as the blood elves.

[Obelisk Kai]

No, it is not pertinent to your historical argument in this thread, but it is pertinent to the post I recently made that you've been responding to. The time it takes them to shift their position in any direction has no bearing on its ultimate arbitrary nature, either. It is entirely at their discretion, and thus at their whim if they so choose.

Which of course boils down to that if they want to change something they can, which I have historically acknowledged. But an interrogation of the available facts allows us to debate how likely that shift is. In this particular instance, they have never shown themselves to be adverse to sub-races and thus offering options based on ethnic lines, but have proven to be adverse to options based on political lines. It is not hard to understand why either, an ethnically diverse race can (and has been) sold as a truly distinct option from a parent race whereas a political variant is a subjective experience, most of the difference exists entirely in the mind of the player.

The difference between the Houjin and Tushui Pandaren is both philosophical as well as political, given their choices of faction allegiance. The shared experience, while nice for the Pandaren as a people within the narrative, isn't really material in my opinion. The two Pandaren "races" within the game are still divided by their politics and their philosophy for approaching life.

There is one Pandaren race. Most of them are truly neutral. There are two small Pandaren factions which are divided on a philosophical and political point and they have chosen to align themselves with the Alliance and Horde to express their beliefs. But nowhere do these differences entitle them to define themselves as distinct races. Nowhere are they defined as distinct races, neither in terms of gameplay or in terms of lore. They only reason people may have for attempting to define the Pandaren factions as distinct races is because the logic of defining the High Elf exiles as a distinct race would compel them to do so in regards to the Pandaren. The simpler answer is that the High Elven exiles are not a distinct race, but are what they have always been presented to be, a purely political faction of an already playable race.

That is true, but many arguments have been forth as to why that case isn't entirely applicable vis-à-vis the Blood Elves and High Elven exiles. I don't personally consider the Pandaren option a failure, myself; but that's not my distinction to make. Nor do I think the developers are either inerrant or objectively correct in several of their own conclusions about the game. The argument to authority is not generally how I approach this concern.

The Pandaren are not a failure. They are a great race. It is the concept of neutrality that failed in that it undermined the distinctiveness of the two factions. Pandaren would have, in hindsight, been better served by going to the Alliance with the Horde getting it's own unique option native to the continent out of the several interesting races we met there. But that is in the past.

Whilst arguments have been put forward as to why the Pandaren failure does not apply to the Blood Elves and the High Elven exiles, those arguments have never really stood up to scrutiny. Even in the Q and A where playable Alliance high elves were definitively ruled out, Ion counted off a few genuine differences between Blood Elves and the exiles with the implication being these differences were, in the grand scheme of things, minor and irrelevant in terms of providing a truly different option. Most of them were subjective, i.e attitudes...philosophies...politics and the one physical difference, eye colour, really isn't a substantial difference by any real measure (and Blood Elf players are making a good argument as to why it should be a customization for them and ironically Ion gave them more of a commitment than they have ever given High Elf advocates, albeit jokingly in the form of contact lenses).

While the developers are not inerrant, neither are the fans. For all the talk of how 'high elves are the most requested race ever' they are also, by a considerable margin, the most opposed. Whom then do the developers listen to on this topic? I believe the developers were not inerrant on this topic as their expressed opinions closely matched my own. You believe they were inerrant as the result was not to your tastes. And yet, what we are arguing over is not them coming down four square behind one point of view. We are arguing over their compromise, Void Elves.

For all intents and purposes, this discussion is over as a result of that compromise. A variant of the demanded race, but one which allowed the Horde a monopoly on the aesthetic and theme of the traditional High Elf.

Why would they ever have added Void Elves if there was even a chance they would ever add the High Elf exiles? They used the leeway they afforded themselves by shifting their lines to accommodate the ethnic differences to meet the Alliance players' request in a fashion, because they were unwilling to shift their lines to accommodate the more abstract differences you cited as hypothetical (and which they have refuted in word and deed).

- - - Updated - - -

I think this is rather dishonest to assert. Yes, the pandaren situation is generally regarded in a bad light by Blizzard, but they have never gone in detail as to why.

• Was it because the pandaren are a "true neutral race"? As in, same starting zone for them before splitting when choosing factions.
• Was it because the pandaren have the exact same class choices?
• Was it because the pandaren have the exact same racials?

If it was any of all of those three, or even all three, then the same reasoning would not apply to playable high elves, since high elves are unlikely to have the same starting zone as the blood elves, are unlikely to have the same class choices as the blood elves, and are unlikely to have the same racials as the blood elves.

It was because the same race was offered to both sides, diminishing the diversity of both factions as a result. And they have actually stated this, firstly through Ghostcrawler who addressed the situation directly when asked, and secondly through Ion who cited faction diversity as the reason behind not giving the Alliance High Elves and inventing Void Elves instead. If giving the exact same race that is currently playable on the Horde to the Alliance unacceptably blurs the lines between the two factions, then doing so in 5.0 had the same effect.

Making a mistake is not a license to repeat that mistake on a bigger scale. It is a learning experience that prevents you from making that mistake a second time. Almost makes you think that if they hadn't have gone with a neutral race in 5.0 and thus learned the downsides, they might have taken a chance on High Elf exiles in 8.0.

Oh well. At least you have Pandas.

[Aucald]

Which of course boils down to that if they want to change something they can, which I have historically acknowledged. But an interrogation of the available facts allows us to debate how likely that shift is. In this particular instance, they have never shown themselves to be adverse to sub-races and thus offering options based on ethnic lines, but have proven to be adverse to options based on political lines. It is not hard to understand why either, an ethnically diverse race can (and has been) sold as a truly distinct option from a parent race whereas a political variant is a subjective experience, most of the difference exists entirely in the mind of the player.

Which I have acknowledged, and which could be addressed in a number of ways put forth by other parties. But again, neither here nor there.

There is one Pandaren race. Most of them are truly neutral. There are two small Pandaren factions which are divided on a philosophical and political point and they have chosen to align themselves with the Alliance and Horde to express their beliefs. But nowhere do these differences entitle them to define themselves as distinct races. Nowhere are they defined as distinct races, neither in terms of gameplay or in terms of lore. They only reason people may have for attempting to define the Pandaren factions as distinct races is because the logic of defining the High Elf exiles as a distinct race would compel them to do so in regards to the Pandaren. The simpler answer is that the High Elven exiles are not a distinct race, but are what they have always been presented to be, a purely political faction of an already playable race.

There is one Pandaren people, yes - and in the ethnological sense, there is one Pandaren race. But in the gameplay sense there are three Pandaren "races": the Horde-aligned Houjin, the Alliance-aligned Tushui, and the non-playable and neutral mainland Pandaren. Again, referring to the original substance of my original and recent post, what truly defines a "race" in the gameplay sense is their game mechanics and faction, not ethnological difference. Lightforged Draenei aren't their own people, after all, they're part of the Draenei race. Kul Tiran Humans similarly aren't a different species from a Stormwindian or Lordaeronian Human - they've got some physical distinctiveness, but not enough to change their effective genotype (and both the regular Humans and Kul Turan Humans are offshoots of their Vrykul progenitors). The High Elven exiles aren't a different species from the Blood Elves, and they're of the same ethnic extraction as well, but in gameplay terms they are a different "race" in the same way the Lightforged Draenei are separate from the original Draenei in the game systems.

The Pandaren are not a failure. They are a great race. It is the concept of neutrality that failed in that it undermined the distinctiveness of the two factions. Pandaren would have, in hindsight, been better served by going to the Alliance with the Horde getting it's own unique option native to the continent out of the several interesting races we met there. But that is in the past.

Whilst arguments have been put forward as to why the Pandaren failure does not apply to the Blood Elves and the High Elven exiles, those arguments have never really stood up to scrutiny. Even in the Q and A where playable Alliance high elves were definitively ruled out, Ion counted off a few genuine differences between Blood Elves and the exiles with the implication being these differences were, in the grand scheme of things, minor and irrelevant in terms of providing a truly different option. Most of them were subjective, i.e attitudes...philosophies...politics and the one physical difference, eye colour, really isn't a substantial difference by any real measure (and Blood Elf players are making a good argument as to why it should be a customization for them and ironically Ion gave them more of a commitment than they have ever given High Elf advocates, albeit jokingly in the form of contact lenses).

While the developers are not inerrant, neither are the fans. For all the talk of how 'high elves are the most requested race ever' they are also, by a considerable margin, the most opposed. Whom then do the developers listen to on this topic? I believe the developers were not inerrant on this topic as their expressed opinions closely matched my own. You believe they were inerrant as the result was not to your tastes. And yet, what we are arguing over is not them coming down four square behind one point of view. We are arguing over their compromise, Void Elves.

For all intents and purposes, this discussion is over as a result of that compromise. A variant of the demanded race, but one which allowed the Horde a monopoly on the aesthetic and theme of the traditional High Elf.

Why would they ever have added Void Elves if there was even a chance they would ever add the High Elf exiles? They used the leeway they afforded themselves by shifting their lines to accommodate the ethnic differences to meet the Alliance players' request in a fashion, because they were unwilling to shift their lines to accommodate the more abstract differences you cited as hypothetical (and which they have refuted in word and deed).

I've never actually thought anything was wrong with what was done with the Houjin and Tushui divide in the Pandaren - if anything, I think it actually serves to make the Pandaren more culturally unique than any other playable race in WoW. Only the Pandaren could be so philosophically distinct that they could seemingly and arbitrarily choose which superpower to join with based on their own philosophies. I can understand it might've caused some upset to the status quo, but it works for the Pandaren as a people within the story itself, at least insofar as I'm concerned.

And of course the fans aren't inerrant - if that were the case we wouldn't even be having this debate, that was never a claim made to my knowledge. The fact that the developers aren't inerrant isn't a personal or subjective one - it's a patent statement of fact, we *know* they've been wrong before. They've admitted to being wrong many times. They'll be wrong again in the future, no doubt. This isn't a "your side/my side" distinction, it's just a fact of the matter like water rolling downhill. They can and have been wrong, their word or opinion on a given matter isn't the end-all or be-all of a given debate, especially in the sense of the dialectic.

This discussion is a critical exegesis on the matter of the truth of opinions - it does not, as I see it, have an objective right or wrong answer that any authority or person can provide. I'm not right in my position, and neither are you, no one is - we're just two parties with opinions on the matter in a sea of other opinions that may or may not agree with ours in whole or in part. Part of the problem of this thread has been parties trying to ram their opinion into fact, which of course parties who disagree are going to take issue with, and which will inspire some of those other parties to try to ram their own opposing positions into fact. Treating this debate as objective is wrongheaded, in my view. Subconsciously adding "in my opinion" to the end of every other sentence you read here would probably help a lot of participants.

As for the quantity and degree of specific differences in the High Elven exiles and the Blood Elves, that is a largely subjective conclusion - and it hinges wildly on the emphasis you place on certain elements. I would say one's choice of Azerothian faction/political affiliation in the Warcraft universe is a huge factor that cannot be understated - but that is my own opinion, to which others may agree or disagree. Similarly, I think the distinction between the Lightforged Draenei and the regular Draenei is exceedingly minimal, moreso than the one between the Blood and Void Elves, but that is also my opinion - to someone who RP's a Lightforged Draenei or is more immersed in the gameplay experience of them, the opposite could be true (and I can see the validity of such arguments despite not sharing in them).

[Ielenia]

It was because the same race was offered to both sides, diminishing the diversity of both factions as a result. And they have actually stated this, firstly through Ghostcrawler who addressed the situation directly when asked, and secondly through Ion who cited faction diversity as the reason behind not giving the Alliance High Elves and inventing Void Elves instead. If giving the exact same race that is currently playable on the Horde to the Alliance unacceptably blurs the lines between the two factions, then doing so in 5.0 had the same effect.

Making a mistake is not a license to repeat that mistake on a bigger scale. It is a learning experience that prevents you from making that mistake a second time. Almost makes you think that if they hadn't have gone with a neutral race in 5.0 and thus learned the downsides, they might have taken a chance on High Elf exiles in 8.0.

Oh well. At least you have Pandas.

Again, you're making huge extrapolations out of too vague information. We don't know what exactly about the pandaren situation is a negative to the developers, especially since there are so many possible reasons, and an even bigger number of possible combinations of reasons, for the developers' reaction regarding the pandaren.

Worse yet: there are two important facts regarding the developers who expressed those views regarding the pandaren: one, they worded their claims as being their personal opinion; and two, those developers no longer work at Blizzard, as far as I know. Who's to say that the 'new blood' doesn't agree with their predecessors' views?

[FlubberPuddy]

Worse yet: there are two important facts regarding the developers who expressed those views regarding the pandaren: one, they worded their claims as being their personal opinion; and two, those developers no longer work at Blizzard, as far as I know. Who's to say that the 'new blood' doesn't agree with their predecessors' views?

That in 8.2.5 Ji and Aysa become the introductory NPCs to the Allied Races shows that Blizzard continually puts the neutrality of Pandaren as one of the pillars of their identity.

The High Elves don't hold such a neutrality, with the recent War Campaign showing that the Sunreavers did not forget about the Purge from MoP and seek to destroy the Alliance yet there's some people who still think that somehow the High Elves in the Alliance would be okay with this? The logic doesn't follow and the game continually shows the High Elves that are in the Alliance do not want to be associated with their Horde kin, and neither do the majority their Horde kin want to do anything with them.

A far cry from the neutrality that exudes from the Pandaren.

[Obelisk Kai]

There is one Pandaren people, yes - and in the ethnological sense, there is one Pandaren race. But in the gameplay sense there are three Pandaren "races": the Horde-aligned Houjin, the Alliance-aligned Tushui, and the non-playable and neutral mainland Pandaren. Again, referring to the original substance of my original and recent post, what truly defines a "race" in the gameplay sense is their game mechanics and faction, not ethnological difference. Lightforged Draenei aren't their own people, after all, they're part of the Draenei race. Kul Tiran Humans similarly aren't a different species from a Stormwindian or Lordaeronian Human - they've got some physical distinctiveness, but not enough to change their effective genotype (and both the regular Humans and Kul Turan Humans are offshoots of their Vrykul progenitors). The High Elven exiles aren't a different species from the Blood Elves, and they're of the same ethnic extraction as well, but in gameplay terms they are a different "race" in the same way the Lightforged Draenei are separate from the original Draenei in the game systems.

The conflation of race and faction here is what is confusing matters. There are three distinct political factions based on their political alignment, one horde, one alliance, and the overwhelming majority who are neutral. I would point out that in terms of gameplay, there is only a single Pandaren race option with the choice of faction being made after the choice of race.

I have to say, the Lightforged Draenei are an odd hill to argue from and a poor comparison with high exiles when the Void Elves are a far more appropriate match. Both consist of individuals who were previously bog standard members of their race transformed by outside powers into something unique, and thus were differentiated along ethnic lines and justified their position as Allied races. A lightforged draenei in other words, is as distinct from an ordinary Draenei as a Void Elf is from a Blood/High Elf. Were they as close to Draenei as High Elf exiles were, they'd simply be bog-standard Draenei who had been on their spaceship for a couple of millenia and they would almost certainly not be an Allied race.

And of course the fans aren't inerrant - if that were the case we wouldn't even be having this debate, that was never a claim made to my knowledge. The fact that the developers aren't inerrant isn't a personal or subjective one - it's a patent statement of fact, we *know* they've been wrong before. They've admitted to being wrong many times. They'll be wrong again in the future, no doubt. This isn't a "your side/my side" distinction, it's just a fact of the matter like water rolling downhill. They can and have been wrong, their word or opinion on a given matter isn't the end-all or be-all of a given debate, especially in the sense of the dialectic.

This discussion is a critical exegesis on the matter of the truth of opinions - it does not, as I see it, have an objective right or wrong answer that any authority or person can provide. I'm not right in my position, and neither are you, no one is - we're just two parties with opinions on the matter in a sea of other opinions that may or may not agree with ours in whole or in part. Part of the problem of this thread has been parties trying to ram their opinion into fact, which of course parties who disagree are going to take issue with, and which will inspire some of those other parties to try to ram their own opposing positions into fact. Treating this debate as objective is wrongheaded, in my view. Subconsciously adding "in my opinion" to the end of every other sentence you read here would probably help a lot of participants.

As for the quantity and degree of specific differences in the High Elven exiles and the Blood Elves, that is a largely subjective conclusion - and it hinges wildly on the emphasis you place on certain elements. I would say one's choice of Azerothian faction/political affiliation in the Warcraft universe is a huge factor that cannot be understated - but that is my own opinion, to which others may agree or disagree. Similarly, I think the distinction between the Lightforged Draenei and the regular Draenei is exceedingly minimal, moreso than the one between the Blood and Void Elves, but that is also my opinion - to someone who RP's a Lightforged Draenei or is more immersed in the gameplay experience of them, the opposite could be true (and I can see the validity of such arguments despite not sharing in them).

Yet the reason you are able to cite previous instances of developers making mistakes is because they have admitted it and taken steps to rectify the damage. Is it not inappropriate to therefore use their own admissions of wrongdoing on occasion to say that because they were clearly wrong on X, and they admitted it, that they are clearly wrong on Y? That seems a bit of a leap. Particularly as the body of official commentary on this topic covers nearly fourteen years, from the Caydiem blue post in 2005 to the leaked CM response from the High Elf discord where a pro High Elfer was told that while they value people voicing their opinions, that that doesn't automatically mean they have to agree with them. That is the critical difference between previous occasions where they were making mistakes, and this debate, that they haven't said they were wrong and they keep reiterating their position on this matter. Those reiterated positions become the developer commentary regularly cited as the underpinnings of the 'anti High Elf' position, the body of evidence we have which we take to these debates to prove the opinions of the pro High Elf side wrong.

After all, when two groups get into an argument, how do you settle it? You cite evidence to back up your position. The inability of the other side to cite evidence,(once again evidence is something the creators have said, something written in an official work or something done in game) means that the other side dedicates itself to proving the official commentary wrong. Disagreeing with another fan's opinion can be considered one thing, disagreeing with a developer because what they say contradicts your own opinion is another thing, but disagreeing with a fan...then disagreeing with the developer...then insisting not only is the developer wrong but that you are right is pure arrogance (you have not done this of course, others have).

The developers stand behind faction diversity as the reason to deny playable High Elf exiles. As they have not accepted this is wrong, their rationales are valid and perfectly citeable in debate.