What fundamentally changed in WoW Society for so much raid selling (gold)?

[xindralol]

There was a guild selling BWL clears for 500 (or was it 5000 I can’t remember) gold back in vanilla on our server (around the time aq opened iirc). Sure it wasn’t as common but it did happen.

[Accendor]

The audience changed first, and Blizzard adapted.

The audience changed because the game changed.

[socialmaker]

Well for starters there are legal avenues where you could use (said) gold on their bnet shop so.... if previously you could sell your earned gold and risk getting banned now you can buy game time, other games, lootboxes, mounts, xfers etc...

Not only that, limited M15 runs, get your spellwing mount before BFA and other "has deadline" achievements forced people to "not miss out" thus creating a market for boosting even more.

pretty simple answer if you would have USED YOUR BRAINZ

[Deleted]

[QUOTE=socialmaker;49513980]Well for starters there are legal avenues where you could use (said) gold on their bnet shop so.... if previously you could sell your earned gold and risk getting banned now you can buy game time, other games, lootboxes, mounts, xfers etc...

Not only that, limited M15 runs, get your spellwing mount before BFA and other "has deadline" achievements forced people to "not miss out" thus creating a market for boosting even more.]

Simply, Blizzard encourages such fenomena, though not directly. If a person would like to buy a mount worth 2 mln gold (in BFA there'll be another one for 5 mln gold) and he/she is capable of carry anyone for gold to get him/her a "deadline achivment" there's no more simple way to do so. On the other hand, if mounts from past expansions (and the current ones and the ones to follow) would have 10% instead of 1% drop probability, there would be less people wanting to be carried before the deadline.

[rda]

Not discussing if its good or bad....but what occurred in WoW that toon "boosting" for gold became such a norm?

WoW token and the game reducing in players and getting apathetic = many are trying to "justify" staying there by at least not paying a sub.

- - - Updated - - -

The audience changed because the game changed.

Exactly. /10ch

[Keashaa]

Easy as it is...

- switch from raid id to loot id (you can run the raid as often as you want) outside of mythic raiding
- switch from static raid size to flexible raid size outside of mythic raiding
- switch to cross-realm-raiding outside of mythic raiding
- switch from one or two raid difficulties to four
- absurdly high item level required for PuG raids

[cparle87]

Every feature that has been added to the game has been to assist "solo play". LFG, LFR, Group Finder. Cross Realm. ETC ETC.

BFA will be the first time something was added to the game to promote communities.

None of those things you listed preclude a group of 5 or more guildies from participating in them.

[infernity]

You see it more and more, because people generally have more gold than we did before the garrison. Also, with the token being available to buy for £, gold just is around a lot more.

[Banard]

I'll even add and edit...first thing this morning...what do i see? Boost and guldan mount ad on MMO CHAMPION. Don't even have to be in game anymore!

[Accendor]

None of those things you listed preclude a group of 5 or more guildies from participating in them.

While you are right of course lets be honest: If you have 5 guildies that you regularly group with, you are not the target audience of any of those features.

[Battlebeard]

Not discussing if its good or bad....but what occurred in WoW that toon "boosting" for gold became such a norm?

back in BC i don't remember this occurring at all (never played vanilla). Maybe it was occurring, but it was at least so far "hidden" from view that I didn't see it.

WOTLK....i got some recollection of the ilevel addon ..which makes me think people were boosting....but i don't remember seeing it..

Cata/MoP...I never saw it much...but this was the first time i started to hear of "gold runs". People bidding on gear drops with gold and then the gold gets "divided" at the end. I don't even thing these runs ever occur anymore.

but since WOD ...and since mythic +...it seems there are more gold for content groups than actually runs. trade is being spammed, the LFG tool is being spammed.

What occurred?

Edit 1: NOTE you dont even have to be in game any more...right on the front page of mmo champion this morning, boosting and mythic guldan mount ad. AD AD AD.

It seems obvious to me; the rare and temporary rewards AND the dependency on achievements.

This has been going on a long time, and I blame Blizzard for unecessary cosmetic rewards mixed into PvE encounters. Like the Wolf mount you got from Garrosh in MoP, the Moose mount from Archimonde or the purple phoenix you get from Argus now. Same goes for the weapon skin you get from doing a +15.

These are temporary (they are gone next expansion) cosmetic rewards that require some effort to get. A lot of casual people, who want to collect them might not have any other choise than to buy them. I didn't need to buy any of these myself, but if I lacked the skill/time or w/e to do Heroic and +15, I would 100% buy them cause I am a collector.

The system is awful, they should not mix in cosmetic rewards into PvE. Would stop a lot of sell runs.

Another reason is the extreme depencency on Ahead of the Curve achievements, that also started in MoP. Since then, this has basically been a requirement to raid, and alot of people, primarily those who return to the game, has the skill to raid but lack the curve. Go figure, ofc they buy it to not have to deal with ignorant leaders who decline them without it.

This is awful too, these Ahead of the Curve is a disease to the game, and the people spamming trade chat and selling boost with IRL money, hurting the game, are clear symptoms, still Blizzard keep these achivs...

[Deleted]

Who is to blame for this trend? developers making the game appeal to the lowlife scum for 3 expansions and the lowlife scum that looks for a way to cheat themselves to the top without putting in the work. Its the general decline in quality of wow players that started with overall casualisation and those two things feed on one another as time goes.

[Baroclinic]

Who is to blame for this trend? developers making the game appeal to the lowlife scum for 3 expansions and the lowlife scum that looks for a way to cheat themselves to the top without putting in the work. Its the general decline in quality of wow players that started with overall casualisation and those two things feed on one another as time goes.

Those horrible low life scum! I agree, most people who want whatever dumb mount are usually murderers and pedophiles in real life.

Dude, it's a game! Get over yourself!

LOL, myself, being a horrid person that I am, paid for a couple H bosses too. I get a kick out of just being able to spout crap in "AoTC" groups like, "Well, I paid 350K for my AoTC and I can dodge the crap" and "Although I paid 350K for my AoTC, I did stay in a Holiday Inn last night, so put me in whatever pod".

Sometimes I think it might be nice to buy a full run so I wouldn't be stuck wiping to people dieing in Coven... considing how little consecutive playtime I might get some weeks.

But, actually, speaking about the horrid cheaters, wanna know the worst of em? Progression Guilds! I'm not sure what top these other guys are climbing to with their silly bird mounts, but these guilds often time lack players, so what do they do? Open up LFG and grab whatever 970+ilvl raiders that apply (alot of times me). These people practically get a ringer to help them push through whatever boss and actually claim progression out of it!

Then again, it really is just a game, and theyre honest in listing progression, I'll usually jump in to help.

[Count Zero]

The audience changed because the game changed.

You're greatly exaggerating the influence any one game or game company has.

[Volitar]

Everyone gets free gold shoved down their throat. Back in the day most players were just insanely dirt poor and could hardly afford anything. Not having your epic mount was a very common thing in BC.

[Alkizon]

Count Zero
You're greatly exaggerating the influence any one game or game company has.

You misunderstood what was meant: it was not the "former audience" that had changed (although it's almost certain, that they also changed partly with time - those who decided to "adapt" and tolerate disgrace), but composition of new "audience that been attracted". Is it clear now? Conditionally speaking (not literally, allegorically): if there was a system of crime and punishment before, now it's literal lawlessness and this is natural that such change began to attract completely different type of people (criminals) to the product and put those, who decided to stay, in front of choice - to adapt or be eaten (more callous/detached/apathetic?).

Therefore, we can say that game (its rules and content - system) is determining factor of its audience.
=> game is changing - the audience is "changing" too.

Something like - That -

very old quote (not mine) about modern elitists

5) You make content easy to learn and obtained that led to excessive growth of those who have "mastered" - "(fake) elitists" are now able to choose from those with whom to go at dungeons/raids/world-bosses and if before they had to deal with newcomers (those who don't know anything), teaching/helping people (everything they know <url>), but now they only need just ilvl and don't care/deal with understanding <url>, <url> or something of these social mechanisms <url>, <url> (can bring up hundreds such topics since time course changed <url>) add here problem spending other people's keys in vain <url>. What kind of content is that when "just had opened" raid/world boss killed and putting on farm at 1st day of its existence? Ve-e-ery challengeable...

Also:

SirBeef
people acting like dicks is not Blizzards fault

Yes and no. They contributed to painless accumulation of such experience, until it became norm. So, Blizzard isn't generally to blame for the fact that this or that person is behaving badly, but they're to blame for “characteristic” tendencies in community as a whole - they allowed/contributed to making it happen. Main principles still are the same: conditions of formation, adaptation and experience ...because conditions are controlled by game design. Probably somewhat rude to blame them for what they didn't understand and apparently continue to misunderstand, but to deny their influence is to defy healthy logic.

A simple example: is it true to blame parents for the fact that their child grew up becoming tainted cockered @$$hole?

SirBeef
Blizzard said it was time fr you guys to leave the nest

And I'd have accused your parents for not providing necessary values (but here an individual approach is important and also your example is unsuccessful as a whole, although it's logical, explanation further), but they simply lost control of situation at some stage, problem is in that notion of “what I quoted” shouldn't be in game's case at all (there is no "adulthood" as well as constancy of "content" for community: 1 educated out, 2 ill-mannered in - balance requires constant adjustment, and therefore sustentation of conditions formation must be a constant notion). It's not appropriate, because devs continue to control entire process, they continue to be responsible for conditions (since this is their main purpose and duty), and it's not true for your parents from a certain stage. Your analogue falls in “moving to different game and there already having started all serious issues” for player’s category. Is it understandable?

I apologize for a bad example, because it's partially my fault, but I didn't give you my answer and just wanted you to answer me exactly the way you answered, so you'd ask yourself this question. I understand that this falls under "monipulation" category, but I think you'll forgive me. Just wanted you to understand logical chain stages, priorities in judgments.

and about reputation itself

In my experience, most new gamers still fall under heading "impatient"/"fast player", and (often not because it's their fault, rather) since discussed system itself 1) "gameplay" not only fails to show how/in which way good could be "slow" game (because all good that was in it was drained down toilet in favor of "acceleration" and "we want all and different/more subscribers", but it didn't become "fast"), but also 2) "reputation" former/current subscription base itself, which company shamelessly mocks for so many years, speaks about game, to put it mildly, in two ways (but, as for me, rather emphasized negatively) ⇒ so that "fast" players, by nature, will have no desire to even try (waste time) on this product.

It's funny, friends painted this trend little less than 10 years ago in a very short and laconic way on old forum, but discussion didn't have much progress (it was exactly about reputation's formation and destruction). Something like "lost what they had, and didn't get what they wanted". It seems that there was comparison with heavy classic brand and light modern craft - they say each to its audience and its purpose. Which is quite simple and understandable, but goes against actions/ideology of change/marketing of you know who, right?

Using word "reputation" I don't mean general public (so-called political and not only trends; like people whose opinions majority of "adult" internet community in general and gaming community in particular have never taken into account/felt solidarity with), I'm talking about local point not biased opinions and impressions of specific participants - players. Since it's they who make final decision to play or not to play, they are end-user. By the way, difference between them is very easy to trace within communication zone - on specialized forums, rather than in "widely accessible" social networks, huh.

[kamuimac]

It seems obvious to me; the rare and temporary rewards AND the dependency on achievements.

This has been going on a long time, and I blame Blizzard for unecessary cosmetic rewards mixed into PvE encounters. Like the Wolf mount you got from Garrosh in MoP, the Moose mount from Archimonde or the purple phoenix you get from Argus now. Same goes for the weapon skin you get from doing a +15.

These are temporary (they are gone next expansion) cosmetic rewards that require some effort to get. A lot of casual people, who want to collect them might not have any other choise than to buy them. I didn't need to buy any of these myself, but if I lacked the skill/time or w/e to do Heroic and +15, I would 100% buy them cause I am a collector.

The system is awful, they should not mix in cosmetic rewards into PvE. Would stop a lot of sell runs.

Another reason is the extreme depencency on Ahead of the Curve achievements, that also started in MoP. Since then, this has basically been a requirement to raid, and alot of people, primarily those who return to the game, has the skill to raid but lack the curve. Go figure, ofc they buy it to not have to deal with ignorant leaders who decline them without it.

This is awful too, these Ahead of the Curve is a disease to the game, and the people spamming trade chat and selling boost with IRL money, hurting the game, are clear symptoms, still Blizzard keep these achivs...

blizzard keeps them because blizzard benefits direcly from selling tokens .

so you should not epxect any of those to go away - it will be different - we will see more and more temporary rewards with time.

[Nutrition]

Few features coming together for the perfect storm.

1. WoW token's value hit a level where it rewards a substantial amount of gold when purchased.
2. Gold was made easier to get though passive means.
3. Mid tier content started giving rewards usually reserved for top end (mythic gear, mounts)

This created a scenario where run of the mill players could become carriers where in the past it was fairly restricted to less then one percent of the population who could clear mythic. This applies to dungeons as well since a 15 at current gear levels is a good deal easier then what a gold clear run would be in mop and wod.

Gold is easy to get and I would hazard a guess that 20% of the player base is cable of carrying a heroic. You see a increase in buying and selling because it has been opened up past whales and mythic raiders. I asked around to a couple other guilds and there hasn't been a major uptick in mythic mount sales. It is just the new market coming into effect.

[Marrilaife]

Gold is easy to get and I would hazard a guess that 20% of the player base is cable of carrying a heroic. You see a increase in buying and selling because it has been opened up past whales and mythic raiders. I asked around to a couple other guilds and there hasn't been a major uptick in mythic mount sales. It is just the new market coming into effect.

You can't have a major increase in mythic mount sales when they're throttled so badly, for example when I play my alt on Draenor EU I see advertisements like "Pieces - world top guild - selling mythic Argus cutting edge without mount - mount is booked already until July", they can't sell more mounts unless they field second alt team, if all the lockouts are already reserved ahead by whales, if there's another, he just can't get his.

Heroic curve / mount can be sold not only by bigger margin of playerbase, but also by the same people multiple times a week. It's common practice a guy will keep Argus hc lockout, pug people, then charge some buyers to tag along, rinse and repeat.

So yeah:
- hc boss has value to be bought
- pugs can clear hc boss without much hiccup
- lockout holder can recycle the same lockout as many times as he wishes

Same with m+ 15 you only need 4 people not 19 to boost unlike mythic raiding, and there are pugs that just decide "if you have this much raider.io you can join and boost", because it's just that easy.

Yeah, you need the ilvl, and ilvl needs TIME. In the world of titanforging, you don't need to do cutting edge content to get good gear, but you need to farm A LOT to accumulate enough gear. And people cba to sink time so they buy the shortcuts.

If you pug, it's even slower, you have to farm normal a lot (it's easy, but takes time to assemble enough gear to be accepted to lower heroic pugs), then you could farm first 8 on hc skipping the pug killer bosses and get enough titanforge to be among the top pug bracket, but it takes lots of time.

People buy lvl boost from Blizzard store or get a free one from BFA, and don't want to pass all the steps: 870 greens - 880/890 WQ gear - 910 argunite gear - 915 lfr gear - 930 normal gear - 945 hc gear - farm titanforges and weekly m+15 to get to 960+. It takes too long, and they want a decked toon asap, that's why they boosted it.