I will admit that I now believe beta testers had it right. (class mechanics)

[Malikath]

Cause the author conveniently forgot how mandatory not only talents and glyphs were, but also tier sets up to the point that you had to use them in pvp too in order to make the class work, like ret pally during dragon soul patch. Sometimes even a trinket was a gamechanger.

so, do you always have to lie to attempt to prove your delusions?
in MoP every row was defined by providing the same thing, be it mitigation, mobility, CC, AoE, or rotation change.
now we have mobility being put against CC and mitigation on the same row meanwhile the baseline of specs and classes are utterly gutted.

it's also hilarious that you mention raid tiers, another thing blizzard cut.

[Deleted]

pretty much, the fact they've taken away class baseline skills only to reintroduce them as talents is pathetic.
anyone defending this is a full-blown sycophantic apologist.

Its pretty cynical, i agree.

[MrCool]

The past was great, but hey it's hard having taste. Tell me, if/when they manage to lose half of their subscribers (in under a year) for a second time are you still going to be defending them?

That's the gist of the problem actually. Player base having terrible taste with regards to class design, they eagerly eat whatever shit, rehashed design Blizzard throws at them.

Beautiful art ruined by atrocious class design, does that ring a bell?

[Deleted]

I haven't played FFXIV in ages but man it feels like I am going to try as the jobs in that game are fantastic when it comes to carving unique identity.

Exactly. What I miss from WoW. MoP was sooooo goooood.

[Malikath]

Exactly. What I miss from WoW. MoP was sooooo goooood.

the people who complain about the cumulative skills from prior expacs are idiots, we spend hundreds if not thousands of hours on this game each expac.
if you're telling me you can't learn 1, maybe 2 if we were lucky, new skills over the course of a couple hours with it then how the fuck do you even function in the real world?

[Louz]

Glyphs & Talents were honestly nowhere near as bad as modern talents are for completing classes (ie, "Carnage" & Early Massacre).


It happened here and there, it wasn't the norm, don't pretend like it was.


The image said MoP, you goof.


Considering how poor and disjointed from reality your argument was? Yeah, probably not.


The past was great, but hey it's hard having taste. Tell me, if/when they manage to lose half of their subscribers (in under a year) for a second time are you still going to be defending them?

I'm not "defending them", I'm honestly amazed how many people fall for that stupid picture that is being pasted in every single 4chin wow general like it actually proves some point - it does not, it's on par with the virgin-chad meme level of stupidity. It only happens to support your agenda, so there you are.

I remember how I had to choose glyphs as it they were another row of talents or how I just HAD to have that 4pc or else I would fall behind etc. etc. And that was in pandas if you wanna go into semantics of a shitty meme.

[Deleted]

There are maybe 3 or 4 specs that feel and play better without artifact (two of them being the complete overhauls). The rest is just worse because it's the watered down Legion specs we're all playing.

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It cannot get better. How? There are no tools for this. No legendaries, no new talents, no set bonuses, nothing. There's just Azerite to cover all of that and it already failed. So, how should it get better?

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I fail to see how

Class - 4 (artifact skill, artifact traits, set bonuses, legendaries) + 1 (Azerite) is "more complex" or justifies the heavy pruning Blizzard did in BfA. We have 3 layers of character development less in BfA than we had in Legion PLUS a lot of pruned class abilities and talents.

Azerite bonuses can also be the bonuses you had on tier sets and legendaries. It's up to the devs to make them better. So, yes, the structure for it to get better is already in place and more systems may be introduced as the crucible did.
Baseline, the classes are better. If you compare them without artifact weapon and legendaries, legion was worse. You are comparing Legion with everything unlocked to pre-raid BfA. It's just not the same.

[Schattenlied]

Gee, if only people would start listening to beta testers instead of yelling "it's only beta!" maybe we'd stop ending up in this mess at the start of every single fucking expansion...

[Powerogue]

I feel like there's a big fat hole in outlaw without their artifact ability. Plus in order to compensate for losing my legendary ring's energy regen, I had to throw out marked for death, making me down TWO core abilities. Feels like I'm fighting everything with both hands tied behind my back, no matter how much I brute force things with the AH (RIP AH mount...). There's stretches of up to 3 seconds where I'm just kind of sitting there autoattacking due to lack of energy or things I can do without energy like cooldowns.

WW Monk was nerfed across the board too, but at least their most important abilities are all still there, they just don't obliterate things anymore.

[Thelxi]

I really like sub in BfA. If anything I think it is exactly how it should be. More haste will make it feel a bit smoother and faster.

[Ztranger]

I fail to see how

Class - 4 (artifact skill, artifact traits, set bonuses, legendaries) + 1 (Azerite) is "more complex" or justifies the heavy pruning Blizzard did in BfA. We have 3 layers of character development less in BfA than we had in Legion PLUS a lot of pruned class abilities and talents.

So how do you suggest they keep everything from every expansion and only add to it without getting hundreds of buttons?

[Aleksej89]

Battle for azeroth class design is the most shallow and boring WoW classes have ever been.

I am liking the quest zones and the overall aesthetic but the classes are SO GOD DAMN BORING.

This awful class design began in Legion (and partly in wod) but in bfa it is in full swing, i have 1 of every class at max or near max level and yet there is not a single one i want to play as main.

[Lucrece]

Of course classes are going to feel clunky after legion.

Perfect example is the example preacher makes with fire mage.

All the little things that a fire mage had, heal with blink, scorch belt, etc etc changes game play and that was interesting and made you think differently about how you played in different situations.

Every class has examples where this happened where traits and abilities changed the game play, from what seemed very small had a huge daily impact on how you played.

Now we have gone back to a system where classes are very barebones, this doesnt mean it will stay like that, it gives blizzard a blank slate to improve the classes to fit the BFA model with Azewwrite armor and future systems they may impliment. One system that springs to mind from legion was the Netherlight Crucible, whos to say there is not something in the pipeline coming in BFA that will change class game play significantly. Whos to know really.

Personally whinging about it right now 3 weeks into the xpac is kind of pointless. The xpac has yet to evolve and we have Blizzcon right around the corner where we will see what Blizzard has in store for us regarding the xpac and class development.

Except it doesn't, because you are locked to two DPS based traits at best, one minor, and those traits are not permanent gains like artifacts but also chang with gear drops you get in raiding.

So how do you suggest they keep everything from every expansion and only add to it without getting hundreds of buttons?

Same bullshit from you people all the time. From WoD to Legion the net change was zero because while it added abilities it also pruned some.

In BfA, we just lost everything and gained nothing in terms of an active skill.

The classes by Legion already had less buttons than cataclysm, wrath, or WoD. Adding 1-2 abilities per xpac would hardly make a dent in button bloat.

You people are the ones that go eating Blizzard's shit every single time.

Just like with tier sets. That we'd have more variety because they weren't restrained by class tiers.

Now look at Uldir. A single set for four armor classes. All classes using that armor class look like the same shit.

Less job for Blizzard while you continue to pay them their sub.

[Deleted]

Of course classes are going to feel clunky after legion.

Perfect example is the example preacher makes with fire mage.

All the little things that a fire mage had, heal with blink, scorch belt, etc etc changes game play and that was interesting and made you think differently about how you played in different situations.

Every class has examples where this happened where traits and abilities changed the game play, from what seemed very small had a huge daily impact on how you played.

Now we have gone back to a system where classes are very barebones, this doesnt mean it will stay like that, it gives blizzard a blank slate to improve the classes to fit the BFA model with Azewwrite armor and future systems they may impliment. One system that springs to mind from legion was the Netherlight Crucible, whos to say there is not something in the pipeline coming in BFA that will change class game play significantly. Whos to know really.

Personally whinging about it right now 3 weeks into the xpac is kind of pointless. The xpac has yet to evolve and we have Blizzcon right around the corner where we will see what Blizzard has in store for us regarding the xpac and class development.

Netherlight crucible didn't really impact in how you played your class. All of the generic azerite traits don't impact the way you play, and judging from Uldir, they'll most likely go down that route when it comes to adding more traits, generic ones that have an additional effect in the current tier raid.
Then again, they also added more legendaries during Legion with ToS, increasing variety of play with things like Chains of Ice chest for DK, Double moonfire shoulders for moonkin, etc. Which now have become talents.

I fear that they're going down the "only adding generic traits" route instead of adding more spec specific ones. And even then, grand majority of spec traits atm are pretty trash. At least for me as a moonkin, while I do have traits that impact my playstyle massively, I also have traits that might as well not be on the gear as they're borderline useless.

[Deleted]

Battle for azeroth class design is the most shallow and boring WoW classes have ever been.

I am liking the quest zones and the overall aesthetic but the classes are SO GOD DAMN BORING.

This awful class design began in Legion (and partly in wod) but in bfa it is in full swing, i have 1 of every class at max or near max level and yet there is not a single one i want to play as main.

This is how I feel tbh. I currently have 3 120s, 3 characters at 118, and 2 at 112. That's unheard of for me this early in an expansion but everything hits the same wall pretty much when legendaries stop working and the pruned classes really start to get slow as fuck.

[Ztranger]

Same bullshit from you people all the time.

I didn't ask you. You don't have any solution.

[Mafic]

I feel like there's a big fat hole in outlaw without their artifact ability. Plus in order to compensate for losing my legendary ring's energy regen, I had to throw out marked for death, making me down TWO core abilities. Feels like I'm fighting everything with both hands tied behind my back, no matter how much I brute force things with the AH (RIP AH mount...). There's stretches of up to 3 seconds where I'm just kind of sitting there autoattacking due to lack of energy or things I can do without energy like cooldowns.

WW Monk was nerfed across the board too, but at least their most important abilities are all still there, they just don't obliterate things anymore.

Rogues are designed with haste in mind to fix the specs. Which is the only way new talent options will open up eventually. Blizz wages war against secondary stats but players are still going to chase secondary stats over ilevels.

[RoKPaNda]

Weird. I actually like my main (warrior) and alts (warlock, hunter) more than I liked them in Legion.

[xcitng]

Was saying this during the beta and now its released, my opinion hasn't changed nor do I see it getting better with the azerite system still a disaster.

[Lucrece]

I didn't ask you. You don't have any solution.

What solution would I have not being the designer making the decisions and having already submitted them for close to a year in the alpha forums all for things to stay the same?

Time to go lick boots elsewhere.