Saving is fighting for them, not working with the enemy to kill them for the enemy.
No, but Saurfang is.
That's the fricking problem here, the Horde is being saved by the Alliance once again. MoP 2.0. At least Vol'jin organized the rebellion before getting Alliance's help, Saurfang is being used as an Alliance trump card since day one.
I think Saint Anduin is referring to the time Saurfang knocks him on his ass instead of cleaving him in two. It's kind of a blink and you miss it moment in the cinematic, but as Anduin fights two random grunts Saurfang comes up to him in the background, lifts his axe, then decides to butt the king with the handle instead, sending him flying.
I thought at first this would be because Varian let him carry Dranosh's body from ICC- a favor for a favor, a son for a son and all that. I think Saurfang's actual motivation at the time is pretty weak and the closest to actually being treasonous as he wants his side to lose the battle he's fighting (literally, what, an hour after Zappyboi makes him fight for the Horde) so that Sylvanas dies.
Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.
Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.
Yes and no. To him she's a traitor because he believes she betrayed the horde. He is a traitor to the Horde if there are any negative repercussions to his aiding the Alliance. He is a traitor to the current government not matter what point of view you have. Anyone who goes against a government in their country is a traitor until said government is deposed. It's the definition of the word. If I did what Saurfang is doing and caught, I would be tried for treason. In the US you can be executed for treason if there was a war going on. Spying for another nation in the US or declaring allegiance to them and giving secrets is treason in the real world.
Judging by the character "growth" he's gone through, I'm not so confident in his willingness to fight good wars anymore. Beyond that, does Saurfang even deserve to be called an Orc at this point? He's arguably surpassed Thrall.
Desolate Council were traitors. Horde PC helps get those caught in the blight out of it. Saurfang specifically wasn't betrayed in any sense by Sylvanas.
I've already told you why these examples are dumb and false equivalencies.Elisande, Kael'thas, we went through the list already. Plenty of leaders betrayed their subjects by working against their best interests. The nightborne would have all been thrown into the soul furnaces, one by one, with Elisande being the last one in, if their people hadn't stepped up and stopped her.
That's exactly what they are though. There's really nothing else to call them aside from dumb, maybe. I highly doubt you're going to make a compelling case on the Warcraft Youtube comments section being anything but.
I'm not calling for blind obedience to Sylvanas, I'm just stating that Saurfang wasn't betrayed. That's not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of fact. Regarding his own disagreements with Sylvanas, he's not obligated to sit and follow her. There's a mechanism in-place for hashing out disagreements with the Chieftain/Warchief.
So is every other Horde institution that she's benefitting from. What's she going to do? say no? She loses all credibility among the Horde at that point.Mak'gora is an orc/ogre tradition. Sylvanas likely wouldn't even be interested in having one
If she cheats, she loses all credibility among the Horde.certainly wouldn't fight fairly if she did.
And such a contingency doesn't end with her retaining her position.She would absolutely have a contingency plan in case she was overpowered, like flooding the arena with Blight or something similar.
Because both participants are only allowed one weapon?Plus she's already dead. So what now, how does she lose in a fight where her opponent is only allowed a single weapon while she possesses all the powers of a banshee?
How is she an illegitimate warchief? Did she kill Vol'jin and declare herself in charge? Previous warchiefs of the horde have handed power to a successor. Thrall to Garrosh, Garrosh was beaten and Thrall and the leaders passed it to Vol'jin but mostly Thrall, Vol'jin to Sylvanas. Just because you don't like her doesn't make her not legitimate. Thrall made a misinformed decision on Garrosh, doesn't make Garrosh illegitimate. Vol'jin had someone influence him, doesn't make the passing illegitimate.
Regardless, he is committing acts that are treason. He is a traitor.
Fuck you Anduin. The Alliance isn't fighting to end the war, it's fighting for Survival !
Seriously, you pathetic loser !
The Alliance being weeks away to defeat the Horde my ass...
Go reread the post I was responding to, and maybe you'll get the point.
Orgrim didn't collaborate with Llane and Lothar. He crushed Blackhand's skull in a duel that's explicitly sanctioned in Horde culture, and then went on to burn Stormwind.
I hope you can see the difference.
This would be an epic "gotcha" if I hadn't made this point repeatedly.
"Ermagerd, perpet!" I must have missed the part in the cinematic where Saurfang was given orders, made to swear loyalty, or fucking ANYTHING beyond "You want a shot at her, go for it." So not only did we handwave every single advantage Alliance had at the end of Legion (you know, that made this war idiotic from the moment it was announced), it says we're too weak to stop the New Scourge.
For Horde side, it says all your leaders and people are too weak and ineffectual to so much as say "No, we're not going to do that." to the Lich Queen. For those who like the New Scourge, did you really think it was the new normal? For the actual Horde players, I'm sorry we all have to suffer Garrosh again. Don't worry, we'll hear all about the Horde took care of itself and the Alliance just tagged along, again.
It's cute you think it has anything to do with the story. Horde had better racials for pve and pvp, with entire raid guilds transferring for them. Would be recruits followed them. Eventually, it hit a point where the recruiting pool was greater on Horde than Alliance.
GC slipped up and admitted they wouldn't change them until they thought they had made all the transfer money they could. Even when they did "balance" them, it wasn't enough to stop the shift, because there was no reason for guilds to pay to go back. Most players don't give a damn about the story. Also, you must have missed how every interview about BFA was about telling the Horde not to worry, all would be fine.
But but but, the Sylvanas Tactical Defense assured me there's no Horde bias?!
Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/
Why does him being let out of prison mean he's a puppet? Anduin is hoping for political fallout from his release, but it doesn't mean they're in cahoots going forward.
The Germans sent Lenin to Russia to start a revolution in WW1. Were Lenin and the Bolsheviks also German puppets?
Boy that worked out well for them.