Why does gear still affect competitive pvp?

[Cosmic Janitor]

I don't see how it took them to right before 8.2 to really figure out how bad that would be received.

I think they have shaved down development cycles to the point where they plan and align them with financal goals (earning calls) in their company structure and the release has to be exactly then and there. You could splendidly see how they had fully commited to the azerite stuff in every aspect of the game and when they finally realized it wouldn't work out there were stuck with it. That was what gave us some hasty class overhauls in the last couple of weeks of beta, beause it became finally clear that random garbage procs are just no replacement for artefact weapons, tier sets and legendary slots. I think the whole overhaul and now the essence system is all just a symptom of these rigid dev cycles that neccessitate that you have to work on every actual change way before in the background, which is why we won't see actual changes before the next expansion.

It is the same with the new system. The essence system is still just glofied trinket slots, something they could have also done with azerite pieces, the main issue with them was the constant hunt for a decent piece of high level and good traits (most traits have no reason to exist tbh) while you constantly had to re-earn the actual trait unlock. None of that was neccesary for azerite pieces either, they just didn't do these simple changes before 8.2 which seems mostly stuborn to me.

Frankly I fear they still don't get why people didn't like the system. Like back in beta when everyone with a bit of logical comprehension could see how this would never truly work out like all the removed legion systems, it seems Blizzard is just flat out incapable of realizing it or their goals for the game are so far off from what the playerbase wants that they only dare to bedgrudingly admit it years later, like recently with the over-pruning of classes and the fact that removing things instead of gaining things with rising levels is just bad form in a (pseudo) RPG.

[arkanon]

They have tried making gear not matter - ppl freaked out. They have tried scaling - ppl freaked out. They have tried reduced effects in pvp - ppl freak out.

Honestly, pvp has caused a large potion of the issues wow has now. Im not saying pvp in wow is "bad" im just saying the very nature of it has been the main cause of everything wrong with the classes - and M+ has only made that worse.

The real irony here is that the adding of Arenas and 'competitive pvp, and the adding of M+, are two of the most successful additions to wow, and yet have negatively impacted other aspects of the game, in particular class design and balance.

[Otimus]

If you care about competitiveness and balance, you probably shouldn't play PVP. Blizzard tried to make it a serious esport and it failed miserably for a reason. (Frankly, PVP is mostly pointless in these kind of games anyways. In my opinion anyways. They just take gameplay concepts from other genres/styles of games, and duct tape MMORPG mechanics to it. In which case... I'd rather play, say, for example, CTF in a shooter, than CTF in WoW. The other thing does it better, and I don't have to pay a monthly fee to do it.)

[Annelie]

Couldnt agree more. They should have removed the templates from Legion from regular BGs and kept them in rated pvp. Never understood the hate for templates in Legion. I liked em and thought they long overdue.

Because your stats got F-ed up with templates.

[kaminaris]

SO basically people cried that gear has too much meaning in pvp in wow. Blizzard listened and made templates.
But that diminished gear too much so we are in situation that gear matter more but not as much as in PvE.

Looks like reasonable middle ground, so why people are still upset?

[Big Thanks]

SO basically people cried that gear has too much meaning in pvp in wow. Blizzard listened and made templates.
But that diminished gear too much so we are in situation that gear matter more but not as much as in PvE.

Looks like reasonable middle ground, so why people are still upset?

I share the same opinion as yours. The same exact one.

Its an awesome middle ground.

And just to be clear...im a casual with always only the "poor mans" item level...and i never complain about my ilvl.
You are a little bit weaker but still put up a fight.
More than enough in a random Battleground scenario.

May not be enough for a 1v1 scenario...but who cares.

[Lorianus]

They made templates in Legion and made gear nearly obsolete and suddenly no one queued up anymore because there was no reason or incentive if you lacked the skill to get some of the rewards that are gated at 2.4k+ in arena, People want to stomp their enemys.......they need the satisfaction of feeling superior when they win, it's just how it works.

[nyc81991]

It didn't in Legion (at least not much at all, extremely small 1% bonus every 10 ilvls). With BFA they made gear more relevant again but it's still nowhere as much as it was back in the day.

[kaminaris]

It didn't in Legion (at least not much at all, extremely small 1% bonus every 10 ilvls). With BFA they made gear more relevant again but it's still nowhere as much as it was back in the day.

And its good since if gear mattered to much, meaning of skill would be diminished. New players would be stomped to the ground again.

[rrayy]

Gear shouldn't affect pvp but a lot of people just like to go into pvp only when they outgear their opponents.

Actually gear should. If I have Doomhammer and you only have a stick, You should in no way do equal damage. I should be killing you easily because I have the bby far more powerful weapon. When the USA fights another country or terorist group. Their weapons a gear don't suddenly become as weak as their opponent because they are fighting. This whole idea that everyone should be equal in PvP is ridiculous and shows no understanding of how war works in real life.

- - - Updated - - -

And its good since if gear mattered to much, meaning of skill would be diminished. New players would be stomped to the ground again.

So? Those new players need to get geared up to equal their more powerful foes. IN no way should a player hbave an equal chance against a player that is more powerful than them. This welfare nonsense needs to stop.

[unbound]

If people want a power fantasy just leave it in battlegrounds; does anyone else think its the dumbest f4cking idea in existence having item level affect competitive PvP?

Yes, it is incredibly dumb.

But Blizz isn't interested in making PvP the best possible experience. They want a just good enough experience with some type of hook to keep people playing (and, thus, paying subs and possible token fees)...so they continue to push the gear route.

[Dekkers]

Gear should matter WAY more.

[kiruz]

I agree they should listen, but look first to the actions players take in game when they log in. That will be the purest way to know what the player base wants. I don't know what kind of data they collect on this game, but it should be pretty easy to figure out what people like to do and want in this game. It is somewhat baffling to me that Blizz can't seem to figure it out some times........ Take the removal of the artifacts/legiondaries. It was obviously going to be a total disaster because you can't give people free bread then take it away (and ask money for it). I don't see how it took them to right before 8.2 to really figure out how bad that would be received.

I wonder if you compared the dev times for certain features to the actual player engagement rate/ completion rate of that same feature, I wonder what features would really deliver some "bang for the buck" vs which features would almost be a waste of dev time.

That is actually bad idea to do.
There was some time ago video of ex WoW dev mentioning this particular situation and why it is bad.
The problem with this is that players usually go for the fastest way of doing things. If I have an hour and would like to progress with my gear I probably would start the day with doing Nazjatar and farming the mana pearls from wq/dailies. It is not fun for me, but will net me a better item in a shorter time. For sure I could go some m+ but time investment and reward in that time might not be equal. So every time I log during weekdays, blizz would see that im doing only this and would take assumption that it's my fav content. But to be honest I would rather do something else, like pvp or something. But it is not worth doing in that time. It is not that rewarding. So going by analytics of people daily actions, current game is game of profit in the shortest amount of time.
Better way to get, what people would like to see in game, would be just to read what community wants. Like for e.g. Mage Tower that most of the people mention as best solo content of Legion.

[Big Thanks]

So? Those new players need to get geared up to equal their more powerful foes. IN no way should a player hbave an equal chance against a player that is more powerful than them. This welfare nonsense needs to stop.

Sorry, are you trying to say "gear doesnt matter" today? Patch 8.2 BfA ?
Thats totally false.

A fresh lvl 120 stands no chance against higher item level players...

I have a Brewmaster Monk (Tank spec) with who i play Random Bgs with...and i literally do zero damage to people of my item level and higher.
Zero damage.
But i can kill fresh max levels easily with this spec...which does next to no damage.

Just an example and personal experience of mine.

[arandomuser]

templates ruined pvp

[nexellent]

Because gear is not an issue when you get the best pvp gear from pvp content.

[msdos]

There should be a trinket that puts a 40% mortal strike on the target.

Also a trinket you activate that counter spells the target and puts their school in lockout for 15 seconds.

[kenn9530]

You obtain better gear to perform better in the World, why would the same ideology not be in place for PvP?

PvP should be about skill not what gear your wearing so all players should be on equal footing and it would mean for a better game overall.

Gear should be done in a completely different way, it shouldnt be increasing power by all that much, the character itself should increase its own stats overtime, gear should be purely for what defensive stats and a few minor bonus's like tier sets.

[Appelgren]

PvP should be about skill not what gear your wearing so all players should be on equal footing and it would mean for a better game overall.

Gear should be done in a completely different way, it shouldnt be increasing power by all that much, the character itself should increase its own stats overtime, gear should be purely for what defensive stats and a few minor bonus's like tier sets.

The only issue I have is when pve-trinkets make a significant difference in competitive pvp. Sure... everyone serious with pvp will obtain those trinkets sooner or later but thats not really the point.

There shouldnt be pve-items in pvp thats better than pvp gear.

Period!

[kenn9530]

The only issue I have is when pve-trinkets make a significant difference in competitive pvp. Sure... everyone serious with pvp will obtain those trinkets sooner or later but thats not really the point.

There shouldnt be pve-items in pvp thats better than pvp gear.

Period!

current wow should be you craft your pvp gear once your max lvl then you upgrade it through PvP but its stats remain the same throughout all PvP, you just gain more powerful gear for use if PvE so PvP remains balanced as it can be, PvP rewards should just be cosmetic.

Its never going to happen though too many want to rely on having a gear advantage rather than actual skill.