"No changes/QOL" = in denial.

[Moor Shadows]

= Acting as if no one ever wanted changes back in 2004/05. Acting as if it were acceptable for Blizzard to leave hybrid classes incredibly weak compared to pures/semi-pures.

No, hybrid classes being weaker in their current state is *not* good game design - not in any reasonable way. They waited an entire Xpac to bring them up to a reasonable standard. That sucks. As long as a change is done "in the spirit of Vanilla" (to burrow a phrase from the Catholic Church) then it shouldn't be controversial. And yeah, I acknowledge that Blizzard aren't Jagex in terms of their skills at communicating with the needs/wants of their player-base. I understand if someone is worried about any potential QOL changes.

RSC is one of the most successful MMO's of all time, and it's a reboot of past game version. They have still made changes, "in the spirit of 2007". This utopia nonsense over no-change has got to stop, because trust me when I say this: Classic will not maintain its current level of popularity if it doesn't.

Want the vanilla experience replicated as much as possible in Classic? Accept calls for QoL changes.

(At any rate, what do you even want? To keep playing classic as it is right now for years? Lol)

[Doctor Funkenstein]

Not knowing how to play a hybrid class isn't a fault of the class or it's design, it's your insistent that you have to be the best at everything you do and top the meters (which aren't native to the game in the first place).

The role of the hybrid classes are to be exactly that; doing more than one thing at once. You in a DPS role? Fine, it won't be as awesome as the single focus classes you're with, but they also can't do any spot healing or hold a stray couple of mobs that get lose and start eating the healer's face that the tank can't pick up.

It wasn't until the morons at Blizzard decided that they wanted to make the game sound like it had tons of classes and thus reclassified specs as separate classes that things went downhill for them. Now, today, the "hybrid classes" are all the power players in the game, in that they can do all of their roles just as well if not better than the "pure" classes. And THAT, my friend, is what's truly bullshit.

Translation: Stop worrying about fucking asinine damage meters and learn to play your class the way it's meant to be played. You don't want to be able to do a lot of things well but just one thing great? Then PLAY A CLASS THAT DOES IT and leave the hybrids to the players who not only get how they're intended to be played, but enjoy it as well.

Entitled fucks, I tell you...

[Ezyah]

QoL != balance

[MoanaLisa]

As long as a change is done "in the spirit of Vanilla" (to burrow a phrase from the Catholic Church) then it shouldn't be controversial.

That's naive. I'm sorry that it is but it is.

There may well come a time when entertaining some serious changes to Classic can be considered but it's not now and it's not anytime soon. I think at minimum it's a year away.

[Zentail]

I mean, he's not wrong.

[Nathasil]

= Acting as if no one ever wanted changes back in 2004/05. Acting as if it were acceptable for Blizzard to leave hybrid classes incredibly weak compared to pures/semi-pures.

No, hybrid classes being weaker in their current state is *not* good game design - not in any reasonable way. They waited an entire Xpac to bring them up to a reasonable standard. That sucks. As long as a change is done "in the spirit of Vanilla" (to burrow a phrase from the Catholic Church) then it shouldn't be controversial. And yeah, I acknowledge that Blizzard aren't Jagex in terms of their skills at communicating with the needs/wants of their player-base. I understand if someone is worried about any potential QOL changes.

RSC is one of the most successful MMO's of all time, and it's a reboot of past game version. They have still made changes, "in the spirit of 2007". This utopia nonsense over no-change has got to stop, because trust me when I say this: Classic will not maintain its current level of popularity if it doesn't.

Want the vanilla experience replicated as much as possible in Classic? Accept calls for QoL changes.

(At any rate, what do you even want? To keep playing classic as it is right now for years? Lol)

Of course people demanded changes in 2004/5 - and got them with TBC. But Classic was supposed to bring the 1.x content, not TBC. Have patience, TBC will come soon enough and Hybrids will be viable.

Personally, i am glad they did not start with TBC, as the introduction of Belves into the Horde caused a wound to the soul of the game that has not even begun to heal 15 years later and will do even worse damage when TBC relaunches.

As for simply applying TBC talents+skills to the 1.x content....that would not work. It would require a complete retuning of everything + introduction of new gear. it would no longer be 1.x. Not even remotely.

[yoma]

= Acting as if no one ever wanted changes back in 2004/05. Acting as if it were acceptable for Blizzard to leave hybrid classes incredibly weak compared to pures/semi-pures.

No, hybrid classes being weaker in their current state is *not* good game design - not in any reasonable way. They waited an entire Xpac to bring them up to a reasonable standard. That sucks. As long as a change is done "in the spirit of Vanilla" (to burrow a phrase from the Catholic Church) then it shouldn't be controversial. And yeah, I acknowledge that Blizzard aren't Jagex in terms of their skills at communicating with the needs/wants of their player-base. I understand if someone is worried about any potential QOL changes.

RSC is one of the most successful MMO's of all time, and it's a reboot of past game version. They have still made changes, "in the spirit of 2007". This utopia nonsense over no-change has got to stop, because trust me when I say this: Classic will not maintain its current level of popularity if it doesn't.

Want the vanilla experience replicated as much as possible in Classic? Accept calls for QoL changes.

(At any rate, what do you even want? To keep playing classic as it is right now for years? Lol)

Then go play Runescape Classic? Problem solved.

Also, the Classic team has been HIGHLY communicative throughout the entire process. Have you been under a rock the last year+?

[bmjclark]

The role of the hybrid classes are to be exactly that; doing more than one thing at once. You in a DPS role? Fine, it won't be as awesome as the single focus classes you're with, but they also can't do any spot healing or hold a stray couple of mobs that get lose and start eating the healer's face that the tank can't pick up.

If bringing a hybrid class to a raid in a dps role (yes im aware there are a few exceptions like feral druids) was actually worth it, this argument might have a leg to stand on. But still, if you want actual viable hybrid dps classes, wait for tbc servers. Im sure they'll come eventually.

[RedBrood]

Of course people demanded changes in 2004/5 - and got them with TBC. But Classic was supposed to bring the 1.x content, not TBC. Have patience, TBC will come soon enough and Hybrids will be viable.

Personally, i am glad they did not start with TBC, as the introduction of Belves into the Horde caused a wound to the soul of the game that has not even begun to heal 15 years later and will do even worse damage when TBC relaunches.

As for simply applying TBC talents+skills to the 1.x content....that would not work. It would require a complete retuning of everything + introduction of new gear. it would no longer be 1.x. Not even remotely.

Wait...That's what in your eyes, destroyed the game? BE's?

[Mirishka]

= Acting as if no one ever wanted changes back in 2004/05. Acting as if it were acceptable for Blizzard to leave hybrid classes incredibly weak compared to pures/semi-pures.

No, hybrid classes being weaker in their current state is *not* good game design - not in any reasonable way. They waited an entire Xpac to bring them up to a reasonable standard. That sucks. As long as a change is done "in the spirit of Vanilla" (to burrow a phrase from the Catholic Church) then it shouldn't be controversial. And yeah, I acknowledge that Blizzard aren't Jagex in terms of their skills at communicating with the needs/wants of their player-base. I understand if someone is worried about any potential QOL changes.

RSC is one of the most successful MMO's of all time, and it's a reboot of past game version. They have still made changes, "in the spirit of 2007". This utopia nonsense over no-change has got to stop, because trust me when I say this: Classic will not maintain its current level of popularity if it doesn't.

Want the vanilla experience replicated as much as possible in Classic? Accept calls for QoL changes.

(At any rate, what do you even want? To keep playing classic as it is right now for years? Lol)

Hate to burst your cynical bubble but there are people who played on illegal vanilla servers for like... a decade. Some people just prefer that version of the game.

- - - Updated - - -

Of course people demanded changes in 2004/5 - and got them with TBC. But Classic was supposed to bring the 1.x content, not TBC. Have patience, TBC will come soon enough and Hybrids will be viable.

Personally, i am glad they did not start with TBC, as the introduction of Belves into the Horde caused a wound to the soul of the game that has not even begun to heal 15 years later and will do even worse damage when TBC relaunches.

As for simply applying TBC talents+skills to the 1.x content....that would not work. It would require a complete retuning of everything + introduction of new gear. it would no longer be 1.x. Not even remotely.

'Wound to the soul of the game'? Loooool.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

f course people demanded changes in 2004/5 - and got them with TBC. But Classic was supposed to bring the 1.x content, not TBC. Have patience, TBC will come soon enough and Hybrids will be viable.

Personally, i am glad they did not start with TBC, as the introduction of Belves into the Horde caused a wound to the soul of the game that has not even begun to heal 15 years later and will do even worse damage when TBC relaunches.

Dial it back a tad, son. There's a ton of problems int he game currently...but Blood Elves joining the Horde is not one of them. And, really, after the Alliance was pretty much using the Blood Elves as little more than conscripted slaves... why wouldn't they join the Horde instead?

[horbindr]

i used to think no changes would be the way to go, that the game itself would foster community at least a little bit like back then. but the attitude in classic is a lot more BFA than it is vanilla.

So now i'm like, this dev team has demonstrated that they know what they are doing, so go ahead and make changes focused on improving the community aspects of the game.

[unbound]

Want the vanilla experience replicated as much as possible in Classic? Accept calls for QoL changes.

As someone else pointed out, this is simply naive thinking. Do you really think the people who developed BfA are going to replicate Vanilla as much as possible? If you do, please send a private message as I have a number of lovely bridges for sale around the country.

BC was the expansion that improved upon Vanilla while keeping the vast majority of the experience intact. Wrath was already deviating too much (hence, no further growth, statistically, in subs), and Cata took the trend downhill. Most of it was because of QoL improvements.

Take a hard look at BfA. That is what the constant QoL improvements got us to. Retail WoW is just an MMO...it isn't an RPG anymore. It is trying to be some hybrid Action MMO pseudo-RPG...and it fails miserably. While Legion was tolerable by virtue of Blizz at least putting in pretty good effort for that expansion, it was still a pale candle next to Wrath, much less BC.

Sorry, but only a fool would trust the current crew at Blizz to "improve" Vanilla without destroying it.

[Seranthor]

= Acting as if no one ever wanted changes back in 2004/05. Acting as if it were acceptable for Blizzard to leave hybrid classes incredibly weak compared to pures/semi-pures.

No, hybrid classes being weaker in their current state is *not* good game design - not in any reasonable way. They waited an entire Xpac to bring them up to a reasonable standard. That sucks. As long as a change is done "in the spirit of Vanilla" (to burrow a phrase from the Catholic Church) then it shouldn't be controversial. And yeah, I acknowledge that Blizzard aren't Jagex in terms of their skills at communicating with the needs/wants of their player-base. I understand if someone is worried about any potential QOL changes.

RSC is one of the most successful MMO's of all time, and it's a reboot of past game version. They have still made changes, "in the spirit of 2007". This utopia nonsense over no-change has got to stop, because trust me when I say this: Classic will not maintain its current level of popularity if it doesn't.

Want the vanilla experience replicated as much as possible in Classic? Accept calls for QoL changes.

(At any rate, what do you even want? To keep playing classic as it is right now for years? Lol)

So you didn't want 'Vanilla'... you wanted Frankenvanilla... Good to see folks finally admitting it (although it was known all along)

[Coffeh]

Nah, #nochanges is about authenticity. And 1.12 is authentic Vanilla. The steps between 1.1 and 1.12 are also authentic, but this is the data Blizzard has. What the troll OP is talking about are things that never existed during Vanilla. Obviously that's not authentic and won't happen.

[BananaHandsB]

The point of classic isn't to try to improve upon vanilla. It's to try and recreate a specific experience as close as possible, that a host of people enjoyed, despite it's "flaws". I don't want to get too philosophical but just try to imagine a world without "flaws". That world is completely subjective to each individual and it's impossible to try and and create something that everyone will agree is better. That's been the goal of retail for the past 15 years and just look how many people despise it. Classic is fulfilling the goal it set out to accomplish. A real goal that is actually relatively possible to accomplish to a high degree. It isn't trying to be perfect, it isn't trying to appeal to everyone, it's just trying to recreate a game as close to how it played out 15 year ago as possible, because many people loved that game despite some of the obvious imperfections.

Perhaps, in time, they will experiment with making small changes to classic on separate servers, to see how it plays out, but currently that simply isn't the goal of classic. They're not trying to appeal to everyone, that's a completely futile goal anyways. If you don't like it, you simply do not have to play it. In the end, not everyone will, and that's totally fine. The same changes that some people will love, will turn others off the game. Games that try to appeal to everyone, often end up sacrificing what makes them so beloved to many. It's like the uncanny valley. Often, the harder you try to make something that is already good, perfect, the more it starts to put off many people, as weird as that may seem. Often it's best to just accept something that is clearly great and beloved, even if some people don't love it, because in the end, it's impossible to please everyone anyways.

[Milfshaked]

Let me first state that a ton of shit in classic is horrible and easily be improved. I do not think anyone, or at the very least 99% of classic player, think that no changes is the best thing possible. I think every classic player agrees that a lot of things could be better than it is and that it is certainly not a perfect game.

That said, I think a lot of people distrust Blizzard and do not trust them to make changes. In many peoples eye, no changes is better than the changes Blizzard would make. Having a solid principle prevents it from getting worse, while at the same time preventing it from getting better. The argument in the end will most of the time break down into if you trust Blizzard to make good changes or not.

[Lionhearte0]

= Acting as if no one ever wanted changes back in 2004/05. Acting as if it were acceptable for Blizzard to leave hybrid classes incredibly weak compared to pures/semi-pures.

No, hybrid classes being weaker in their current state is *not* good game design - not in any reasonable way. They waited an entire Xpac to bring them up to a reasonable standard. That sucks. As long as a change is done "in the spirit of Vanilla" (to burrow a phrase from the Catholic Church) then it shouldn't be controversial. And yeah, I acknowledge that Blizzard aren't Jagex in terms of their skills at communicating with the needs/wants of their player-base. I understand if someone is worried about any potential QOL changes.

RSC is one of the most successful MMO's of all time, and it's a reboot of past game version. They have still made changes, "in the spirit of 2007". This utopia nonsense over no-change has got to stop, because trust me when I say this: Classic will not maintain its current level of popularity if it doesn't.

Want the vanilla experience replicated as much as possible in Classic? Accept calls for QoL changes.

(At any rate, what do you even want? To keep playing classic as it is right now for years? Lol)

It's Classic, not Classic Refined. No changes, bitch. And I say that as a Feral/Cat Druid.

/thread.

[Eveningforest]

Of all the possible changes they could implement, trying to re-balance classes would be the most disastrous to the Classic experience. I really doubt they will be making any changes, period. They gave us what people have been asking for and some will love it, some will not. Trying to cater to everyone is what Retail does. Classic should stay authentic to what it once was.

As far as the comment about blood elves wounding the soul of the game in BC, I think flying wounded it much more. It ruined the game, imo.

[Nohara]

I feel a few things could have changed without a ‘it’s not Classic’ debate. The Auction House for example, the price sorting in Classic was just ridiculous. Would it really hurt to be able to sort on buyout price without an add-on?

Or a chat class colors option in the menu instead of: /console SET chatClassColorOverride "0"

Or what about being able to inspect someone from, let’s say, 20 yards instead of 5.