Helm of Damnation

[Nekrotix]

So, Sylvanas broke the Helm of Damnation. Therefore, the Lich King is officially dead. Bolvar is no longer the Lich King, because he needed the helmet in order to control them. I'm not sure if it was ever EXPLICITLY stated that you needed the Helm of Damnation to retain your powers as Lich King, but considering Arthas nor Bolvar NEVER took it off, and the times it WAS removed is when all the power was removed FROM them, that's what makes me believe the Helm of Damnation is essential towards someone being the Lich King.

Another point, Death Knights are soldiers created by the Lich King in order to serve his will. If there was no Lich King, there would be no Death Knights.

Thus, my question.

How in the everloving FUCK is Bolvar able to make new Death Knights if he is not the Lich King? This also ties well into "Shouldn't all the undead be going crazy around Azeroth, as was hinted at in the Fall of the Lich King?" but. One question at a time, this one is probably easier to answer.

I know that Teron Gorefiend was technically the first Death Knight, yes, but that really isn't the same Death Knight as we know. These new Death Knights look exactly the same as the old Death Knights, have the same abilities as the old Death Knights, and are generally just generation 3.5, with new races being added to the old generation.

Of course, as I suspect, they're simply going to retcon that whole idea of the Helm having this godlike power to bestow upon people, and Bolvar just inherited all that power when he became the new Lich King. HOWEVER, then we have to ask, if Bolvar has all the powers of the Helmet, why did shattering the Helmet break open a portal to the Shadowlands? It should be just a normal Helmet if Bolvar has all it's powers.

So here's the conundrum. Either new races being Death Knights makes no canonical sense, or the Helm of Damnation opening a portal to the Shadowlands makes no canonical sense.

If I am wrong, and you'd like to correct me, I'd like to hear it. But from what I know about the Helm of Damnation, I can tell that there's either some really obscure, hidden lore that Blizzard managed to find that would justify all this absolute bull happening, or they're just going to retcon the entire history of the Helm of Damnation so it fits this cool, new story arc that they probably came up with in about a week.

[Alexeht]

Don't worry, it will be all explained when they allow Pandas to become DKs. Also power of DK comes from runeblades and shadowlands, I think not only Shadowmourne was hungry

[LemonDemonGirl]

It's confirmed that the new Death Knights were created before Sylvanas broke the Helm. Also like you said, the Helm opening a hole into the Shadowlands doesn't make any sense. However, Bwonsamdi says that the Frozen Throne is a 'gateway to the Shadowlands' (I'm not sure of his exact words sorry. Haven't done the 8.1 Vol'jin quests). Also, the Helm was made in it.

[Kajitheninja]

The best way to look at it would be that the Frozen Throne is a gateway to the Shadowlands, the Helm of Domination is a powerful artifact that doesnt really do much in regards to the Shadowlands but when Sylvanas broke it the immense magic that was released shattered the veil. yes i know i just described the cinematic. but so many people are saying the helm was forged by Kil'jaeden and had nothing to do with the shadowlands and it shouldnt have done what it did.

[Sagenod]

Eh, the Helm of Domination being forged by the Nathrezim vs it being stolen by the Nathrezim doesn't really change the story in a significant way. They never delved into that in game so why not make a minor retcon so they can write new, possibly better content?

[MrLachyG]

snip

are you asking how Bolvar is able to make new Death Knights in 8.3.5 and 9.0 without the Helm? the answer is quite simple: he did it before the Helm was ripped in two timeline wise.

[TSBasilisk]

It was claimed in the Arthas novel that the Nathrezim forged the sword, but given the entire schtick of the dreadlords is lying it wouldn't be too surprising if they lied about that. I'm not sure if the novel also credits who forged the helm.

Regardless, the retcon as seen in Blizzcon is that both Frostmourne and the Helm were created in the Maw. The powers of the Lich King were part of the Helm but somebody needed to wear it for those powers to actually work. Destroying the Helm released that power in one cataclysmic burst, and the fact that this happened on Icecrown which was already stated to be a place where the veil was thin made this the last straw in whatever plan the Jailer and Sylvanas were following.

[Encaitar29]

The best way to look at it would be that the Frozen Throne is a gateway to the Shadowlands, the Helm of Domination is a powerful artifact that doesnt really do much in regards to the Shadowlands but when Sylvanas broke it the immense magic that was released shattered the veil. yes i know i just described the cinematic. but so many people are saying the helm was forged by Kil'jaeden and had nothing to do with the shadowlands and it shouldnt have done what it did.

It was forged by the Nathrezim along with the Frostmourne upon the direct order from Kil'jaeden in the pre-retcon lore. Now it is stated that the Helm and the Blade were stolen by the Nathrezim from the Shadowlands.

[Feanoro]

It's almost like Shadowlands is a fucking awful idea that breaks the everloving hell out of all previous lore.

[Nnyco]

It was forged by the Nathrezim along with the Frostmourne upon the direct order from Kil'jaeden in the pre-retcon lore. Now it is stated that the Helm and the Blade were stolen by the Nathrezim from the Shadowlands.

I mean it would still make sense that the race of tricksters and liars lied about forging them.

[Kyphael]

It's almost like Shadowlands is a fucking awful idea that breaks the everloving hell out of all previous lore.

The most truthful post in the thread unless you enjoy jumping through hoops trying to make sense of Blizzard's lore and constant retcons.

It's like if R.R Tolkien wrote a follow up to The Lord of the Rings and said "nope, Sauron didn't have the Ring of Power forged in Mt. Doom! He stole it from [insert new generic bad guy name here] in the [insert new generic story location here] and now we have en enemy even greater than Sauron."

Versus you know... just having Sylvanas use shadow magic to tear open a way into Shadowlands with some ritual, and having Lich King Bolvar trying to stop here and failing to do so. But no, the Helm of Domination is no longer a God-like object and unique, because they relegated its purpose to a magical doohickey to open a portal.

[Encaitar29]

The most truthful post in the thread unless you enjoy jumping through hoops trying to make sense of Blizzard's lore and constant retcons.

It's like if R.R Tolkien wrote a follow up to The Lord of the Rings and said "nope, Sauron didn't have the Ring of Power forged in Mt. Doom! He stole it from [insert new generic bad guy name here] in the [insert new generic story location here] and now we have en enemy even greater than Sauron."

Versus you know... just having Sylvanas use shadow magic to tear open a way into Shadowlands with some ritual, and having Lich King Bolvar trying to stop here and failing to do so. But no, the Helm of Domination is no longer a God-like object and unique, because they relegated its purpose to a magical doohickey to open a portal.

Eru Illuvatar now has an evil twin, enjoy - J.R.R Tolkien, quote from the Silmarillion 2.0 :P that's pretty much how it would look like had he worked for Blizzard and had to come up with more and more powerful villians.

[Kyphael]

Eru Illuvatar now has an evil twin, enjoy - J.R.R Tolkien, quote from the Silmarillion 2.0 :P that's pretty much how it would look like had he worked for Blizzard and had to come up with more and more powerful villians.

Yikes. You either die a good writer, or live long enough to run your stories into the ground.

[Varodoc]

The most truthful post in the thread unless you enjoy jumping through hoops trying to make sense of Blizzard's lore and constant retcons.

It's like if R.R Tolkien wrote a follow up to The Lord of the Rings and said "nope, Sauron didn't have the Ring of Power forged in Mt. Doom! He stole it from [insert new generic bad guy name here] in the [insert new generic story location here] and now we have en enemy even greater than Sauron."

Versus you know... just having Sylvanas use shadow magic to tear open a way into Shadowlands with some ritual, and having Lich King Bolvar trying to stop here and failing to do so. But no, the Helm of Domination is no longer a God-like object and unique, because they relegated its purpose to a magical doohickey to open a portal.

You joke but I'm pretty sure that that almost happened. Didn't Tolkien plan to make a sequel to LOTR set 100 years after Sauron's defeat but decided not to go through with that idea because it just didn't feel right?

[Jester Joe]

It's confirmed that the new Death Knights were created before Sylvanas broke the Helm. Also like you said, the Helm opening a hole into the Shadowlands doesn't make any sense. However, Bwonsamdi says that the Frozen Throne is a 'gateway to the Shadowlands' (I'm not sure of his exact words sorry. Haven't done the 8.1 Vol'jin quests). Also, the Helm was made in it.

Was it? The way they were describing it sounded like it was in response to Sylvanas's actions, because no one knew what she was up to.

Otherwise, I always viewed the Helm as more of a conduit for the power.

Like an undead antenna that lets you broadcast your power further. I suppose naturally it also endows the power in the first place, but even the player DK was shown to be able to create more Death Knights.

[Kathranis]

Kind of late to complain about retcons if you're okay with WC3 completely rewriting the entire mythos, IMO.

[Topornic]

It's Helm of Domination not damnation.

Supposedly Arthas became a Death Knight before even reaching Frozen Throne and equipping the Helm, so it is possible. Necromancy shenenigans and abracadabra.

[Kyphael]

You joke but I'm pretty sure that that almost happened. Didn't Tolkien plan to make a sequel to LOTR set 100 years after Sauron's defeat but decided not to go through with that idea because it just didn't feel right?

Not something I ever heard about. I know he passed before he even finished working on the Silmarillion, but I have no knowledge he ever considered writing a sequel to LoTR. I know he loved writing to friends and colleagues, is this something that was found in one of his many letters? If so, interesting. I mean, he ended up going with his gut instinct which is good, but even if he wrote a sequel, it wouldn't have necessarily been bad, unless the story fundamentally retconned established lore for reasons like WoW's lore team does for lulz. I'd like to think R.R Tolkien could have written a good sequel to LoTR. It would have likely just involved humans and hobbits though, as elves and wizards were pretty much gone from that period, as he intended, but that's a whole different discussion.

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It's Helm of Domination not damnation.

Supposedly Arthas became a Death Knight before even reaching Frozen Throne and equipping the Helm, so it is possible. Necromancy shenenigans and abracadabra.

Technically, when he equipped the helm, he became The Lich King, merging with Ner'zhul. He became a Death Knight the moment he picked up Frostmourne and started doing Ner'zhul's bidding. This is where it must be clarified, Death Knights can raise the dead, but not on the same level as The Lich King; they can't control a vast army of The Scourge, the Helm of Domination was designated exactly for that purpose. Ner'zhul's mind and spirit resided in the helm. He was The Lich King until he found a proper host to merge with. That's why Bolvar had to have created the new Allied Race Death Knights before Sylvanas snapped the helm in half. Darion for example, a powerful Death Knight in his own right can't even raise Death Knights himself, to my knowledge. Unless the helm is reforged in Shadowlands (which methinks it will over the course of Shadowlands), the Allied Race Death Knights would be the last generation of Death Knights ever raised in Azeroth.

[Schattenlied]

Helm of Domination, not damnation, and as it's name implies the helm is what gives the Lich King domination over the Scourge... While he may retain general Death Knight powers after losing the helm we've already been told that he can no longer control the Scourge, which is the Lich King's power.

[Varodoc]

Not something I ever heard about. I know he passed before he even finished working on the Silmarillion, but I have no knowledge he ever considered writing a sequel to LoTR. I know he loved writing to friends and colleagues, is this something that was found in one of his many letters? If so, interesting. I mean, he ended up going with his gut instinct which is good, but even if he wrote a sequel, it wouldn't have necessarily been bad, unless the story fundamentally retconned established lore for reasons like WoW's lore team does for lulz. I'd like to thank R.R Tolkien could have written a good sequel to LoTR. It would have likely just involved humans and hobbits though, as elves and wizards were pretty much gone from that period, as he intended, but that's a whole different discussion.

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Technically, when he equipped the helm, he became The Lich King, merging with Ner'zhul. He became a Death Knight the moment he picked up Frostmourne and started doing Ner'zhul's bidding. This is where it must be clarified, Death Knights can raise the dead, but not on the same level as The Lich King; they can't control a vast army of The Scourge, the Helm of Domination was designated exactly for that purpose. Ner'zhul's mind and spirit resided in the helm. He was The Lich King until he found a proper host to merge with. That's why Bolvar had to have created the new Allied Race Death Knights before Sylvanas snapped the helm in half. Darion for example, a powerful Death Knight in his own right can't even raise Death Knights himself, to my knowledge. Unless the helm is reforged in Shadowlands (which methinks it will over the course of Shadowlands), the Allied Race Death Knights would be the last generation of Death Knights ever raised in Azeroth.

Yeah, I read it here:

https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/The_New_Shadow