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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Toppy View Post
    FFXIV is almost perfectly balanced and almost always is: only slipping up typically for the first few months of an expansion.

    Their inability to balance things has nothing to do with the classes getting stale, its just bad devs.
    Excuse me? Shadowbringers has probaly shown how little they actually know about their dps. Stuff like NIN release and SMN fix springs to mind at how grotesque they were

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toppy View Post
    FFXIV is almost perfectly balanced and almost always is: only slipping up typically for the first few months of an expansion.
    I'm not a FFXIV expert, but doesn't this game has the possibility of playing all the "classes" (or jobs, or w/e they are called) on a single character?
    If so, then class balance is kinda secondary, IMHO.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by ano2024 View Post
    Balancing is what led to the homogenization of all classes. It made the gameplay sterile and stale.

    Instead of focusing on making the classes feel fun, on giving them flavor, they focused on balancing. And as as inevitable result of that, we've seen pruning and standardization of abilities and all classes ending up playing the same like all others. Each class now has a button for X, a button for Y, a rotation that builds a resource and spends it etc...

    I'd take an unbalanced but fun game over a standardized and homogenized but polished turd any day.
    Boring and sucking out the fun of the classes has nothing to do with the word balancing. They only mean that and balancing can happen without making the classes boring as long as the changes made stick to the narrative, or class fantasy, of the class.

    It's the same as the "good is dumb" phrase.

    Good is good and dumb is dumb. Someone can be good and frighteningly competent, see also Captain Carrot Ironfunderson af the Ankh-Morpok City Watch.

  4. #104
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    Classes don't play anything alike and the game at this point with all of the corruption stuff is more unbalanced than ever.

    Good times, right?
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  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Hyeonh View Post
    It just doesn't mix that well when the rng heavy aspects from diablo worked because you had unlimited chances to keep farming while WoW is time gated and limited attempts for loot
    I see people claim WoW is to much like Diablo but in the end really isn't. Also Mythic+, the repeatable content for loot, is one of the biggest success of modern WoW according to a lot of players. Also there are a lot of developers working on WoW that have been with Blizzard or WoW for a long time. I think this is part of the problem. People aren't happy. Don't really know why they are not happy so they look for easy excuses like "not original devs" or "Diablo" or any number of the thin reasons people give.

    I mean how many times has X employee been villified as the cause all the problems only for them to leave the company and a new scape goat found.
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  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by MasterOfNone View Post
    rofl. now thats a bit of a stretch. come back to earth
    Is it really? Some random quit our raid because the tank wasn't parsing high enough? How can you parse for getting punched in the face?
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Questing and levelling is not a major part of the game anymore. People do world quests to get AP, but world quests are not enjoyable content. It's very low quality content.
    See. You are confusing "enjoy" with "major part". Questing, including world quests, are very much a major part of the game. They take up more content over all then Mythic+ and raiding. It isn't low quality content. Instanced content has always been a major part yet Blizzard keeps adding in non-instanced content for players to do. Which is directly against your point of instanced content the focus now more then ever before.
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  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    See. You are confusing "enjoy" with "major part". Questing, including world quests, are very much a major part of the game. They take up more content over all then Mythic+ and raiding. It isn't low quality content. Instanced content has always been a major part yet Blizzard keeps adding in non-instanced content for players to do. Which is directly against your point of instanced content the focus now more then ever before.
    The quality of the content matters. World Quests etc. are not fun content. It's just time gating. World Quests have the potential to be fun, but they are not.

    Getting back to the topic of the thread. The way retail WoW is designed would not work if Classes weren't fairly well balanced. The game and the audience of the game need balanced classes. Modern raiding and M+ wouldn't work well without balanced classes. Raiding in Classic was something completely different.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Also Mythic+, the repeatable content for loot, is one of the biggest success of modern WoW according to a lot of players.
    M+ wouldn't work if Classes were balanced like they were in Vanilla.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by stomination View Post
    Cast spell wait for proc follow proc with other spell. aoe when aoe is optimal. repeat fishing procs while casting the basic spell.

    Do you want rogues to have Devil May Cry combinations, Monks to need me to do 6236 FP in order to do a Dragon Punch, and Mages requireing me to actually type the spell in say in order to cast it.....

    Cause you just said how hotkey style MMOs work

  10. #110
    The overarching issue I've run into across all my chars is a fundamental lack of control I have over my output/performance, which dovetails into class balancing. As of right now in raids, my damage output pull to pull is about +/-15% DPS, which is nuts in itself but exacerbated when most of it is based upon RNG in the background over which the player has no control. My major frustration with the layer of corruption, essences, and class mechanics/balancing is that depending upon your class/spec, you can tend to have more consistent damage output or have very inconsistent output. The reality is that this expansions systems just amplify the balancing mess.

    All that being said, balance must always be viewed from a frame of reference, such as raiding, M+, or PvP. One change can have a cascading effect which could throw off the balance in one or all of these frames of reference. The inherent problem Blizz faces is that they choose to attempt balance in all these frames of reference, which is pretty much impossible with how they choose to tune content. You run into issues where you have metas/comps for each content that are so strong that it feels like you're playing the game wrong if you don't follow the fold. If you're tackling challenging content (such as mythic raiding) and your group's DPS output pull to pull has wild swings just because of class design and balance, that's a problem if the content isn't balanced around the minimum potential.

    Simply stated, the current class balance (imho) is extremely frustrating because I get the increasing feeling that I have to get lucky to perform well versus feeling like I have control.
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  11. #111
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    I really can't even get on board with the OP's notion. The classes are less homogenized now than they've ever been, with each spec playing differently and most overlapping utility having been removed in Legion and BFA.

    Balance has virtually nothing to do with how the game feels, anyway. Especially in BFA, where there approach has been to tune numbers rather than tweak playstyles, even for specs that are universally panned for having unfun playstyles.

    With the unpruning and focus shifting back to class identity over spec identity in Shadowlands, which is what OP seems to want, we can actually look forward to the classes inching closer to homogenization once again, as specs start to overlap with each other within classes, and classes start to overlap with each other in functionality.


    Quote Originally Posted by Toppy View Post
    FFXIV is almost perfectly balanced and almost always is: only slipping up typically for the first few months of an expansion.

    Their inability to balance things has nothing to do with the classes getting stale, its just bad devs.
    FFXIV doesn't have specs, talents, glyphes, affixes, essences, or anything else that modifies baseline gameplay apart from the haste stat affecting cooldown time and thus minorly adjusting rotations.

    In FFXIV, every Dragoon plays the same. Every Black Mage plays the same. Every Paladin plays the same.

    No shit it's easier to balance. It has 18 jobs with nearly zero individual variation. WoW on the other hand effectively has 36 classes, each with multiple permutations depending on talent choice and gear.
    Last edited by Kathranis; 2020-03-01 at 11:26 PM.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    The quality of the content matters. World Quests etc. are not fun content. It's just time gating. World Quests have the potential to be fun, but they are not.
    That is the thing though you are saying the quality is something subjective. What is fun to one person is not necessarily fun to another person. And quality content is not always fun. Blizzard has been putting a greater emphasis on non-traidtional end game things with Legion and BfA. Those things are a major part and the focus is not just on Raiding and Mythic+. That is why there is actually a bunch of stuff to do even if you personally do not want to do it. Which seems to be what you keep confusing. Because you don't like it means it isn't major or "quality".

    Getting back to the topic of the thread. The way retail WoW is designed would not work if Classes weren't fairly well balanced. The game and the audience of the game need balanced classes. Modern raiding and M+ wouldn't work well without balanced classes. Raiding in Classic was something completely different.

    M+ wouldn't work if Classes were balanced like they were in Vanilla.
    Sure it would. Just like raiding worked in Vanilla with out class balance. You just would only have certain classes always represented in Mythic+ with others not able to do it at all. Because content is always tuned to those completing it. Classes are only balanced for raiding and Mythic because Blizzard is trying to allow everyone, regardless of spec, to enjoy the content.

    It isn't required for that content but Blizzard choose to attempt to allow everyone to do it with out having to change specs or classes. Which is good design. But far from being required as you claim.
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  13. #113
    First of all, the current situation has nothing to do with balancing. This is purely a cost-cutting measure by streamlining classes to reduce dev time. This is also why actual class design has been stagnant (after slowing down post-MoP) and Blizzard shifted everything towards rental power and generic procc based effects sinnce BfA. And even then blance is worse than ever and entirely dependend on you getting that one good corruption piece. The whole development process has been turned into a statistics game of estimating with what the devs can get away while maximizing profits. And this is across the whole game, every level is pretty much min-maxed to hell and back by now; sadly with complete disregard to the variance in the actual output.

    Then for the FFXIV side topic, all I can say is that I adore the game but balance is absolutely not something people should be attributing to the game as a strong point. The game is entirely centered around niche roles for classes and alot of classes tend to sometimes not be viable at all in difficult content, since their niche is no longer wanted. It would lead to far to go into too much detail, but there are alot of assumptions in FFXIV and group dynamics like non-support classes being the flat out best DPS, etc. If a buff is actually strong enough to bring a class then it is usually just one of that class. Bringing multiple of one class is something not really intended in the games design and alot of time the offset between potential DPS in theory (which in turn warrants some mechanics) is overturned by the reality that you are in fact not just standing still and turret casting.
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  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomana View Post
    I'm not a FFXIV expert, but doesn't this game has the possibility of playing all the "classes" (or jobs, or w/e they are called) on a single character?
    If so, then class balance is kinda secondary, IMHO.
    But you still have to level them like they were a new character (with heirlooms) the only difference is that you don't fill up the character select screen.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by ano2024 View Post
    Balancing is what led to the homogenization of all classes. It made the gameplay sterile and stale.

    Instead of focusing on making the classes feel fun, on giving them flavor, they focused on balancing. And as as inevitable result of that, we've seen pruning and standardization of abilities and all classes ending up playing the same like all others. Each class now has a button for X, a button for Y, a rotation that builds a resource and spends it etc...

    I'd take an unbalanced but fun game over a standardized and homogenized but polished turd any day.
    You can play Classic... oh wait not only it's imbalanced but many specs consist of 3 buttons. So when was actually WOW "fun"? Because in my personal experience back in MOP when Classes were the most homogenized but also had the biggest amount of fun abilities.

    And no, not every class has a "button for x" which mostly means the ones that don't get benched / declined. If you spec lacks aoe, cc, immunities etc. be sure you'll be sidelined for classes that do.

    One of the most garbage spec atm is shadow priest because it lacks in every aspect, has no burst, slow aoe, no immunity, no aoe stun, very long cd on interrupt, poor defensives (only one they have doesn't let them dps during it and isn't full immunity) and generally is only good when it's overtuned (like it was in 8.2), otherwise it shows how trying to make a dps spec "different than everything else" makes basically something useless.

    Spriest was fun when it was in "build resource, spend resource" mode a.k.a. shadow orbs, but now they made it into some uncontrollable bar just for the sake of being different and it made a spec that is basically unfun and doesn't fit into any content except council fights in raids.

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Sure it would. Just like raiding worked in Vanilla with out class balance. You just would only have certain classes always represented in Mythic+ with others not able to do it at all. Because content is always tuned to those completing it. Classes are only balanced for raiding and Mythic because Blizzard is trying to allow everyone, regardless of spec, to enjoy the content.

    It isn't required for that content but Blizzard choose to attempt to allow everyone to do it with out having to change specs or classes. Which is good design. But far from being required as you claim.
    Sorry but this is completely wrong, and a total fantasy without even the slightest connection to reality.

    Raids in Vanilla were trivial trash (and yes I HAVE been saying that since Vanilla*) - just like they are now in Classic. M+ with Vanilla balancing would be completely trivial in exactly the same way. You say "only certain classes could do it". Bollocks. That's not how Vanilla was designed. Instead you'd need like, a Warrior tank and that'd be about the only hard requirement. And like raiding pre-Naxx, it'd be super-easy.

    * = My very first experience of raiding in WoW (having done it in EQ and DAoC previously), was one of my friends wanting to go out for an evening, but being the key healer for his raid (MC, when it was the only raid in town). So I played his character for him - the highest level WoW character I'd played before that was 40. And people were acting like this was hard, but the whole thing was just ludicrously trivial. I was even telling people what to do at one point, based on notes he'd left me (luckily we weren't on voice - because you didn't need to be, because it was trivial!).
    Last edited by Eurhetemec; 2020-03-02 at 01:28 AM.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Eurhetemec View Post
    That's not how Vanilla was designed. Instead you'd need like, a Warrior tank and that'd be about the only hard requirement. And like raiding pre-Naxx, it'd be super-easy.
    It would still function though as I said. Raiding and Mythic+ can function with out class balance as that was the case in Vanilla. There was no real balance. There was just class designed and some as you point, a warrior, were "requirements" over others. That is the entire point. The same point you are stating. Class balance is not a requirement for content to function.

    Mythic+ though isn't very fun if only warrior tanks get to go. Or a Fire mage (if it was "molten core" week as an example). These are the things Blizzard balances for. To make it so every spec is viable. If Blizzard didn't do this balancing the group compositions would be even more skewed then they already are. No matter how much you want to ignore that reality it would be the case. Because even with "better" balance between the classes high keys have a clear favorite composition.

    Amusingly the to 100 rankings on Raider.io show most are Warrior tanks. The encounters were trivial which is something entirely different then class balance. It is related to some degree but there is a difference between trivial mechanics and the performance of specs.
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  18. #118
    You think WoW is having it bad? Try Diablo 3. Oh boy, the classes and specs are super baaaaad. Any other game feels better to play. From Blizzard or anyone else.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by ano2024 View Post
    Balancing is what led to the homogenization of all classes. It made the gameplay sterile and stale.

    Instead of focusing on making the classes feel fun, on giving them flavor, they focused on balancing. And as as inevitable result of that, we've seen pruning and standardization of abilities and all classes ending up playing the same like all others. Each class now has a button for X, a button for Y, a rotation that builds a resource and spends it etc...

    I'd take an unbalanced but fun game over a standardized and homogenized but polished turd any day.


    They really do, on the regular, paint themselves into a corner with "class balance."

    On one hand, they made a ridiculously alt-unfriendly system-bloated expansion which basically locks anyone with ambition to one class/spec. In this scenario, the investment in a class almost demands balance even at the expense of enjoyability. If I'm leaning hard into one class, and switching away from that class is cumbersome, that class can't be "wrong." It might be boring, but it shouldn't be "wrong."

    On the other hand, making a goal out of that degree of sameness leads to the exact "absence of fun" that this thread talks about. And let's be real: they haven't achieved it, there are still "wrong" classes for certain situations. I'm just a filthy casual but even I feel it: If I'm focusing open world or solo content, mages and healers are "wrong" for me. If I want a time efficient personal game, I'm a tank, hunter or warlock. Surprise, my main is a warlock.

    So what is the answer? Bear with me here, I'm going to try to put words in the devs' mouths based on what I've seen:

    Maybe we're not supposed to take it that seriously.

    Now before you throw stuff, hear me out. I'm not saying that concept is going to penetrate this sect of the community, but maybe they don't expect us to overthink "balance," and they want us to play what we want to play, run content with friends so "you're playing the wrong class" is less likely to come up, and so that the general truth of "good enough is good enough" carries the game.

    Maybe they don't expect us all to make hardline goals out of Mythic or mythic plus anything. Maybe they're building for the bottom to middle (and therefore larger) tiers of the pyramid of give-a-damn.

    Be honest with yourself, are you on the tier of play where balance is making of breaking your game? If you are, how big do you think that tier is? Maybe I'm just casual, comfortable and don't care... but maybe I'm the target audience. Story aside, I do feel pretty catered to...

    ...You know, so long as I don't try to main a Mage or Priest.

  20. #120
    Obsession with balancing.. good laugh op. 10/10 troll. Completely unexpected topic and it came across as genuine. Literal god of satire.

    Also, you need to watch this video and realize that "balance" and "unique" are not a cursed design.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uE6-vIi1rQ

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