Shadowlands Covenants - Making the choice. Is it really as bad as people think?

[Lohal]

Seemed to me like you meant that autism=stupid beyond belief.

As an autistic person I find min maxing extremely boring. Leveling alts over and over in a very repetative manner is more my thing. And is very autistic behavior.

Hey, you can enjoy the game however you want to. Don’t judge yourself, and don’t let others judge you for it

[Beefhammer]

The balance issue with covenant skills/passives is not to be underestimated. And it isn't a "sky is falling" strawman, as blizzdrones put it, but rather that Blizzard simply has a terrible record when it comes to balance, even after 15 years. And after the Azerite fiasco, so magnificently downplayed by folks like @Beefhammer, I can't help but to be quite wary. I can see why he/she's invited to testing lol.

Complete bullshit it isn't a sky is falling issue at the moment. Nothing has been tested and you have many people claiming if they choose one over the other they will be unable to perform in other activities.

[Laughingjack]

Complete bullshit it isn't a sky is falling issue at the moment. Nothing has been tested and you have many people claiming if they choose one over the other they will be unable to perform in other activities.

Perform other activities at top level... just because you can't counter their argument doesn't mean you should misrepresent it...

[Beefhammer]

Perform other activities at top level... just because you can't counter their argument doesn't mean you should misrepresent it...

Oh please. There is nothing to even suggest anyone will e unable to perform at top levels. It's all hyperbole at this point.

[Laughingjack]

Oh please. There is nothing to even suggest anyone will e unable to perform at top levels. It's all hyperbole at this point.

Again just because you can't find any holes in the opposing argument doesn't mean you can change or simply dismiss it. The people against you have 15 years of proof this system won't be balanced you have blind faith... one isn't equal to the other can you guess what one of the two it is?

[Cosmic Janitor]

One thing from an RP perspective. While leveling, you effectively join all four of the covenants and get access to all their respective abilities already. And it's not even something half-assed, you are actually granted access during questing with specific quests that enable you to use these abilities. How come you are stripped of three of them?

I think you are only granted them for local use, the permanent version is most likely tied to more expenditure (in lore) from the covenants. So that they work everywhere in the shadowlands, they probably demand you ally with them more tightly (wich is still nonense as I see no reason why they couldn't just let help other covenants on the side).

That being said, I think the best solution would have been to give the players 3 talents and only style them to each covenant aesthetically by joining them. I think there is pretty much already a trend that most classes will have 1 or 2 desireable ones, and the others are either bland or just flat out boring/terrible. Each of the soulbinds could then easily support one of the talents, maybe even in different ways, but at least you have access to the main functionality without hassle. In this model you would pretty much just pick whch covenant empowers you while your class would determine how you make use of that power. None of the abilities are thematically so distinct that you couldn't style them with another covenant's flavor.

This would also still leave people with the choice of the secondary covenant ability which is already fucking OP in some cases if they keep it like that (looking at you Venthyr).

[Cosmic Janitor]

I'm biased, I love my solution (you always have the covenant that matches your zone up, including in instances, and covenants are disabled for pvp)

Eh, that sounds awfully boring, especially for raiding. It would also mean you get shafted depending on where the dungeon is.

[rrayy]

Again just because you can't find any holes in the opposing argument doesn't mean you can change or simply dismiss it. The people against you have 15 years of proof this system won't be balanced you have blind faith... one isn't equal to the other can you guess what one of the two it is?

We have had convenants for 15 years? Funny, I don't really them ever being on the live game. So, you have no proof.

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Rather have functional then snowflake.

I would rahter have to make choices that come with consequences than simply be handed everything.

[Advent]

How are you handed everything? You still need to invest in each covenant to progress your soulbinds, you still need relics for each soulbind, you still need anima and forgotten souls to progress the cosmetics. You aren't handed anything.

I think the point they were trying to make is that they would prefer to have to make choices that have consequences than have choices which have no downsides. Which is what we have now. We get all the positives, and no negatives, which often just means that there's very little nuance in the game unless you're at the very top of the game. It makes choice and consequence in the game effectively nonexistent.

[Jujudrood]

So you are part of the extreme: "Customization in WoW must always be cosmetical and NEVER in gameplay"

Let me just tell you, even though it doesnt matter, for me thats the saddest thing i've ever read...and i will never touch WoW ever again in the future with that mentality.
Is laughable i know, because im part of such a small community who enjoys gameplay-RPG.

Because it's not customization.
Not anymore.
There is no RPG aspect to it.
WoW is basically an ARPG anymore, where you pick the best thing.
If there's a mathematical best, then you choose it.

The game is not new nor doe sit hold strange and mysterious wonder to be explored.
It's about raiding and M+.

The game you used to like, it's gone and won't come back.
It was a once in a lifetime experience, so enjoy what it was, but for it to continue, there's a reason it's lost much of the RPG elements in favor of what we have today.

[Big Thanks]

Because it's not customization.
Not anymore.
There is no RPG aspect to it.
WoW is basically an ARPG anymore, where you pick the best thing.
If there's a mathematical best, then you choose it.

The game is not new nor doe sit hold strange and mysterious wonder to be explored.
It's about raiding and M+.

The game you used to like, it's gone and won't come back.
It was a once in a lifetime experience, so enjoy what it was, but for it to continue, there's a reason it's lost much of the RPG elements in favor of what we have today.

Im glad to announce this and present you with amazing news! You will feel happy after hearing this:

"There are other MMORPG games out there better than wow"

On some specific aspects at least The aspects you are saying are lacking in WoW
If you can ignore the "downsides" of this other games, sit back and enjoy only the good parts...instant happiness

[Hadriker]

Because it's not customization.


The game you used to like, it's gone and won't come back.
It was a once in a lifetime experience, so enjoy what it was, but for it to continue, there's a reason it's lost much of the RPG elements in favor of what we have today.

Except for the fact they seem to be trying to bring back aspects of the game WoW used to be with mechanics such as covenants and the un-pruning of classes. There's no reason they can't go back to that type of game design. After all, the game was at its most popular when it was "that game we used to like"

[ymirsson]

But why is that needed?
Here is my opinion on this. I understand hard choices when I built a character in a pen n paper RPG or even a CRPG. You choose between multiple options of things to effectively buy from a basket of feats/treasure/etc. with the experience you have accrued. This is not a statement that can be valid in WoW. That part of verisimilitude is long broken; you can change your spec, you can change your talents, you could even change things within existing systems. The hard choice could simply be investment; if there is only so much anima and souls and whatever you can collect per week, then you are not going to be able to progress everything however much you try. And that would actually be organic. But what actually happens is that although you have won the allegiance of everyone you are forced to pick. They don't get to ask for a commitment as well; they need us and are desperate so if I mostly give my anima to the Kyrian but decide to throw some to the Venthyr, neither has the luxury to say no.

As for consequence, I do not think that how you built your character should be locked in an MMO unless every time they rebalance they give us a respec. If I nerf a feat in D&D and any of my players has it, they get to replace it. And if they have built their character around it, then they get to rebuilt. In WoW balancing is (and should be) constant. Will I get to remake my choices because you decided to rebalance things?
There are several things that are and will be on consequence in Shadowlands. Combat is still of consequence. You can still die, you still have to make choices every second. You have to decide how you spend your gold. You'll have to be careful with your Torghast runs. You very much have to manage your social interactions. So I don't see the necessity of adding consequence to how your character is built.

Dying is meaningful in WoW? Never was.

And for the rest of your rant, that is all very much a matter of opinion.

[ymirsson]

But it's curious how they pick and choose what should be reverted in design. Unpruning has been something the community has indeed been very vocal about. Has it been as vocal about hard locked choices? Have we ever had any choices that were as complex in gameplay and seemingly as troublesome to alter other than your character creation (faction, race, class)?

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How on earth was that a rant . . . And this is not about dying, it's about failing. Failing in combat is meaningful in WoW. It means you wipe your group in an instance or lose the game for your group in PvP. Even in world content it means you are wasting time.

And when was the last time you failed a fight because of a wrong talent choice, item or covenant sould bind?

[ymirsson]

I've failed quite a few fights by a small percentage and I assume that if someone in the group was built optimally we might have pulled an earlier kill. You think that is never true?

I think more often it is a matter that someone played suboptimally. Or can you point at some fight were everyone played near perfectly and you still missed by 1%?

[Hadriker]

But it's curious how they pick and choose what should be reverted in design. Unpruning has been something the community has indeed been very vocal about. Has it been as vocal about hard locked choices? Have we ever had any choices that were as complex in gameplay and seemingly as troublesome to alter other than your character creation (faction, race, class)?

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You could argue the Class Halls in Legion are not much different than covenants. They function in a similar manner. They operated as a separate gathering area for its members. You had borrowed powers in the way of artifact weapons. But you were hard locked into the class hall. You couldn't be a druid and decide to join the warrior class hall.


Now instead of class halls, we have covenants that are available to everyone. You get to choose which one best suits your character. Each covenant will grant you access to soul binds (basically another version of the artifact talent trees).

There may be some minor mechanical differences between the two but its the same basic design with a different coat of paint except for one big difference. Now you have to make a choice. You now have some amount of agency over how your character will play in the next expansion. To me, that's exciting and fits exactly into the bringing the RPG back to WoW.

The whole thing may end up falling flat on its face but I do want them to at least try. If they are able to implement it successfully, it could open up a lot of options for future expansions.

To me, it seems the critics of the covenant system don't really want to have to make choices. Blizz could have also just as easily locked classes to their thematically relevant covenants and called it a day or they could do what some in this post want them to do. make it easy to switch back and forth.

They didn't go that direction though. They are taking a bit of a gamble on this i admit, but I am excited to see how it plays out.

[Laughingjack]

We have had convenants for 15 years? Funny, I don't really them ever being on the live game. So, you have no proof.

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I would rahter have to make choices that come with consequences than simply be handed everything.

Your being handed that choice... its not like covenants are locked behind mythic raiding...

We have 15 years of wow and not one of these alternative power progression paths have done well since it released. This is just adding another corpse to the heap.

[Joker of Muerte]

Im going Kyrian for my paladin no matter what cuz i want the mog.

[Yarou]

Class halls are big inns where ppl compare their transmog and size of their weapons

[Hadriker]

Here is the thing. Class Halls are an extension of character creation. You picked a class, and that's what you cannot change.
And here is the thing. The one thing that was reasonably hard to change in the Class Hall was how you spend your AP. You had to make a choice, it was not easily reversible. But at the same time, it did not limit you. You could use all three (or two or four) of your specs. You just had to leave some a bit behind. And that could have worked well with Covenants. You get the basic abilities and then you have to choose how you progress your soulbinds. And you cannot keep twelve soulbinds equal and equipped (because you also need to add 4 relics on each soulbind so that would be a freaking FOURTY EIGHT of them). So the hard choice is still there

it seems Blizzard wants us to view covenants as an extension of our character creation as well. Like I said its the same basic premise as class halls except implemented in a slightly different fashion. The specific mechanics of how each work isn't really relevant, its the same basic principle, except this time you are having to make a choice. It seems the critics do not want to have to make a choice, out of fear of making the "wrong" choice. So they just want access to everything.