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  1. #221
    The Lightbringer Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amarys View Post
    Again that's just a singer as in a dude who sings songs. The bard as a class is something different and they're more like agents, spies, rogues etc. who also inspire their group with songs. WoW lore does not have that and all those "bards" and other singers are just entertainers. Like I said before.. you can just as well ask for a cook class, there are way more of those and some of them actually fight and have food based abilities.
    The individual in question uses songs to attack.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  2. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by Amarys View Post
    Again that's just a singer as in a dude who sings songs.
    By that dishonestly simplified description logic, a priest is just a 'dude who prays'. And I'll repeat, once again, that Russel Brower helps you fight the Old God beast during the Wildhammer wedding, and helps you fight the Firelands' invasion in Mt Hyjal, using his songs to cast frost spells.

    The bard as a class is something different and they're more like agents, spies, rogues etc. who also inspire their group with songs.
    Yeah. With their musical spells.

    WoW lore does not have that and all those "bards" and other singers are just entertainers.
    They do have that. Even back in WC3, the "kodo beast" is a "type of bard."

    Like I said before.. you can just as well ask for a cook class, there are way more of those and some of them actually fight and have food based abilities.
    Except "bard" is a common RPG trope class, along with mages, paladins and rogues.
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    Update 08/17: I changed how the Bone spec's golem mechanic works, as well as some other minor changes.
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!
    Update 09/02: Apparently the mods decided to merge my class concept thread with an existing one.

  3. #223
    Let's be realistic. Bards can't dmg with music or singing. Warcraft movie could be crazy soap opera movie with such things.

  4. #224
    Quote Originally Posted by LarryFromHumanResources View Post
    I never claimed that music was any element, but as we've established with priests and paladins there are ways to wield the same element, but differently enough to warrant two different classes, a bard would be that, a "mage" essentially but with an entirely different toolkit, spells, passives, talents, class fantasy, though still operating within for instance arcane or holy magic.

    Saying something has never been a thing means nothing, the Shadowlands weren't a thing until they were, Draenei spaceships weren't either. Everything is introduced at some point.

    If you want to make the argument that classes previously have been based on what's already in the game I would agree woth you, but maintain that they don't need to, and would posit that only the Brewmaster Monk spec was based on something that already existed, the rest of it was new and hadn't EVER existed in WoW before.
    You bring up paladins and priests, great! You see, paladins and priests access the same magic, that isnt the issue, its the output that matters. Paladins use light magic to augment their physical capabilities while holy priests evoke it. Their gameplay roles are also completely different, one being melee and tanky and the other ranged and squishy. What would a bard do? The exact same things as a mage would but with a different input? Not enough.
    For the paladin/priest comparison, id actually love to see a mageknight spec or a spellblade spec in this game, that would be sweet and wouldn't retread worn ground due to not competing in the same role and thematics.

    Now, im not entirely opposed to a bard being added, i just havent seen any convincing arguments in their favour.

  5. #225
    Stood in the Fire Sagenod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by therealbowser View Post
    Great attitude, I'm gonna go with "bards are the most idiotic thing I've ever heard of as a class concept" and move on from that.

    Tinkers already exist and would fill a hole missing in this game (game heavily revolves around steam-based technology with no classes supporting it), bards are 'lol I play music', no thanks.

    I wasn't gonna bash bards but since you're going to troll about tinkers without anyone even bringing it up, there you go.

    (Don't worry though, most likely Blizzard isn't going to add any new classes, because that would require effort and Blizzard hates effort these days.)
    You're speaking from a thematic standpoint. But what about gameplay? What archetype does Tinker fulfill that the game is currently lacking that the Bard couldn't fill to the same effectiveness? Again, talking about gameplay and not theme.
    Last edited by Sagenod; 2020-05-21 at 11:20 PM.
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  6. #226
    Quote Originally Posted by Sagenod View Post
    You're speaking from a thematic standpoint. But what about gameplay? What archetype does Tinker fulfill the game is currently missing that the Bard couldn't fill to the same effectiveness? Again, talking about gameplay and not theme.
    I'm thinking Physical RDPS, "Ranged" Tanking (melee range with guns and lasers), Mana Free healing.

  7. #227
    Stood in the Fire Sagenod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bloodmoth13 View Post
    You bring up paladins and priests, great! You see, paladins and priests access the same magic, that isnt the issue, its the output that matters. Paladins use light magic to augment their physical capabilities while holy priests evoke it. Their gameplay roles are also completely different, one being melee and tanky and the other ranged and squishy. What would a bard do? The exact same things as a mage would but with a different input? Not enough.
    For the paladin/priest comparison, id actually love to see a mageknight spec or a spellblade spec in this game, that would be sweet and wouldn't retread worn ground due to not competing in the same role and thematics.

    Now, im not entirely opposed to a bard being added, i just havent seen any convincing arguments in their favour.
    How do you explain Holy Priest vs Holy Paladin? Both are quite similar in purpose and aesthetic but quite different in practice. Gameplay mechanics are not defined by design themes. I'm sure if you access your creative side you could imagine how a Bard would differ significantly in both gameplay and aesthetic from everything else in game. It would be nothing like the Mage, no offense but it's strange that that was your example. A Bard would likely function most similarly to the Shaman, which is a class already known for its support capabilities, the bread and butter of the Bard. But that doesn't mean there is no real estate for the Bard to occupy! Being a standalone class is unlikely as nobody is asking for another leather wearer. But as a fourth spec, a class skin or another system in game? Hell yeah. Bards could definitely work. Again, just requires a little creativity.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Salvager23 View Post
    I'm thinking Physical RDPS, "Ranged" Tanking (melee range with guns and lasers), Mana Free healing.
    Physical ranged DPS as in ranged weapon users (bows, crossbows, guns) correct? That's fine, it's definitely something that we could stand to see more of in WoW since only one class uses them. But the Bard can use ranged weapons too, friend! Sure it's be unoriginal to implement in WoW (not that that has ever been a particular issue to begin with, WoW is overall not very original I think we can all agree) BUT the Bard from FFXIV wields a bow. And it makes more sense than melee DPS from a gameplay perspective regarding the Bard since the class, both DPS and heals, would have a focus on support abilities.

    Your ranged tanking example is thematic, not gameplay. "Its still melee range but using guns, lasers, etc." That doesn't matter to the numbers.

    By mana free healing do you mean just mana or resource free healing in general? The former is already in the game and the latter would never happen and Tinkers wouldn't include it.
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  8. #228
    Hmm, other thread got locked for some reason. I'll repost on here...

    Bards would be an awesome addition to the class lineup! I'd do something like this:

    • Sonically-enhanced physical ranged class. Uses bows, crossbows, and guns and wears mail armor.
    • Instruments are not equipped but are instead used in the spell effects like paladin librams are now.
    • Different instrument glyphs are unlocked through achievements and rare loot all around the world, and they can be purchased from the bard class trainer after they are unlocked.
    • Spell animations would use the sonic "multiple yellow rings" effect we see in the game already for sonic-based attacks (like the mantid use). Dirgists would have a shadowy color though.

    Specs - Illusionist, Dirgist, Hymnist

    • Illusionists would create temporary pets through magical songs that function similarly to the inscription blood summons from the tools of the trade blood quill (but actually strong).
    • Dirgists would sing songs of lament and sadness, tormenting their foes with damage over time attacks and performance-reducing debuffs.
    • Hymnists would help their allies through spiritual songs that uplift and inspire, doing healing over time and using performance-enhancing buffs on their allies.

  9. #229
    Stood in the Fire Sagenod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FossilFree View Post
    Hmm, other thread got locked for some reason. I'll repost on here...

    Bards would be an awesome addition to the class lineup! I'd do something like this:

    • Sonically-enhanced physical ranged class. Uses bows, crossbows, and guns and wears mail armor.
    • Instruments are not equipped but are instead used in the spell effects like paladin librams are now.
    • Different instrument glyphs are unlocked through achievements and rare loot all around the world, and they can be purchased from the bard class trainer after they are unlocked.
    • Spell animations would use the sonic "multiple yellow rings" effect we see in the game already for sonic-based attacks (like the mantid use). Dirgists would have a shadowy color though.

    Specs - Illusionist, Dirgist, Hymnist

    • Illusionists would create temporary pets through magical songs that function similarly to the inscription blood summons from the tools of the trade blood quill (but actually strong).
    • Dirgists would sing songs of lament and sadness, tormenting their foes with damage over time attacks and performance-reducing debuffs.
    • Hymnists would help their allies through spiritual songs that uplift and inspire, doing healing over time and using performance-enhancing buffs on their allies.
    I like all of it!

    Two things: It doesn't have to be ALL magic. Bards are artists, dancers, story-tellers. I would have that reflected in their abilities. Also, we both know they'll never be a mail-wearing class. Bards are leather wearers through and through.
    Check out the Drakonaar, my playable race concept! (WIP -- Looking for artists)


  10. #230
    Quote Originally Posted by Sagenod View Post
    I like all of it!

    Two things: It doesn't have to be ALL magic. Bards are artists, dancers, story-tellers. I would have that reflected in their abilities. Also, we both know they'll never be a mail-wearing class. Bards are leather wearers through and through.
    Thanks!

    True, they could have a mix of magic and physical abilities. As for leather, I just figured we have too many leather classes and bards could be like a new petless spin on a ranger that uses music instead of nature magic.

  11. #231
    Quote Originally Posted by Sagenod View Post
    Physical ranged DPS as in ranged weapon users (bows, crossbows, guns) correct? That's fine, it's definitely something that we could stand to see more of in WoW since only one class uses them. But the Bard can use ranged weapons too, friend! Sure it's be unoriginal to implement in WoW (not that that has ever been a particular issue to begin with, WoW is overall not very original I think we can all agree) BUT the Bard from FFXIV wields a bow. And it makes more sense than melee DPS from a gameplay perspective regarding the Bard since the class, both DPS and heals, would have a focus on support abilities.

    Your ranged tanking example is thematic, not gameplay. "Its still melee range but using guns, lasers, etc." That doesn't matter to the numbers.

    By mana free healing do you mean just mana or resource free healing in general? The former is already in the game and the latter would never happen and Tinkers wouldn't include it.
    This is sort of unfair because you're just pulling random Bard ideas from anywhere. I don't think a WoW Bard would work like a Final Fantasy Bard for example. I think before we discuss this, we need to know exactly what a Bard can and can't do in the context of Warcraft.

    I also don't see Bards tanking period.

    What other class heals without Mana?

  12. #232
    The Lightbringer Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salvager23 View Post
    This is sort of unfair because you're just pulling random Bard ideas from anywhere. I don't think a WoW Bard would work like a Final Fantasy Bard for example. I think before we discuss this, we need to know exactly what a Bard can and can't do in the context of Warcraft.

    I also don't see Bards tanking period.

    What other class heals without Mana?
    None, mainly because WoW devs can't think outside the box when it comes to healing. I think it would have been interesting if Monk didn't use Mana and rather used energy and chi for their heals only. I was disappointed when they were just another mana healer.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  13. #233
    Stood in the Fire Sagenod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salvager23 View Post
    This is sort of unfair because you're just pulling random Bard ideas from anywhere. I don't think a WoW Bard would work like a Final Fantasy Bard for example. I think before we discuss this, we need to know exactly what a Bard can and can't do in the context of Warcraft.

    I also don't see Bards tanking period.

    What other class heals without Mana?
    What do you mean by unfair? The point I'm trying to make is that the few relatively unoccupied gameplay archetypes in WoW could be filled by Bard just as well as the Tinker. From a thematic standpoint, obviously the two have a very different role.

    Of course Bards wouldn't tank! I said what I said because your example of Tinkers as tanks was about design rather the specific type of gameplay. Ranged tank will most likely never happen, we both agree I'm sure.

    Well Paladins primarily use Mana but they also have Holy Power. And what resource would Tinkers use for healing other than Mana? I think it's safe to say that the healing specs are balanced around having Mana as a primary resource, so this point of the discussion is probably meaningless.
    Last edited by Sagenod; 2020-05-22 at 01:01 AM.
    Check out the Drakonaar, my playable race concept! (WIP -- Looking for artists)


  14. #234
    Quote Originally Posted by Sagenod View Post
    PFT.



    Need I say more?
    you can be a bard like geralt's partner is a bard a person who sings and plays the lute and waits and does nothing else! maybe cause trouble and be comic relief

  15. #235
    Quote Originally Posted by Sagenod View Post
    PFT.



    Need I say more?
    Yeah, it's a well known profession.

  16. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by FossilFree View Post
    Hmm, other thread got locked for some reason. I'll repost on here...

    Bards would be an awesome addition to the class lineup! I'd do something like this:

    • Sonically-enhanced physical ranged class. Uses bows, crossbows, and guns and wears mail armor.
    • Instruments are not equipped but are instead used in the spell effects like paladin librams are now.
    • Different instrument glyphs are unlocked through achievements and rare loot all around the world, and they can be purchased from the bard class trainer after they are unlocked.
    • Spell animations would use the sonic "multiple yellow rings" effect we see in the game already for sonic-based attacks (like the mantid use). Dirgists would have a shadowy color though.

    Specs - Illusionist, Dirgist, Hymnist

    • Illusionists would create temporary pets through magical songs that function similarly to the inscription blood summons from the tools of the trade blood quill (but actually strong).
    • Dirgists would sing songs of lament and sadness, tormenting their foes with damage over time attacks and performance-reducing debuffs.
    • Hymnists would help their allies through spiritual songs that uplift and inspire, doing healing over time and using performance-enhancing buffs on their allies.
    The first four points is how I think a bard class would work and how I envisioned my concept. Bows, crossbows and guns, and mail or leather armor; instruments would be just casting animations, etc.

    I only went with a tad further making one of the specs a melee spec inspired in the Three Musketeers movies, with a Fencing spec.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aldo Hawk View Post
    Yeah, it's a well known profession.
    Just like warriors and paladins. Well known professions.
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    Update 08/17: I changed how the Bone spec's golem mechanic works, as well as some other minor changes.
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!
    Update 09/02: Apparently the mods decided to merge my class concept thread with an existing one.

  17. #237
    There's bards and dancers and lumberjacks and all that stuff, but there's no cla/ss possibility for a bard. What would they do, play music and buff people? where would the lore be in that?

    I'm legit curious as how they would make that work. I play a Shai in BDO and that cla/ss legit is a bard(buffs allies with music) but there's lore in game for why that works. for a cla/ss like that to work, it would have to be a unique case, like some spirits who love music join you and when you play music, they give off energy based on that. But that wouldn't be your traditional bard :/

  18. #238
    Quote Originally Posted by bloodmoth13 View Post
    You bring up paladins and priests, great! You see, paladins and priests access the same magic, that isnt the issue, its the output that matters. Paladins use light magic to augment their physical capabilities while holy priests evoke it. Their gameplay roles are also completely different, one being melee and tanky and the other ranged and squishy. What would a bard do? The exact same things as a mage would but with a different input? Not enough.
    For the paladin/priest comparison, id actually love to see a mageknight spec or a spellblade spec in this game, that would be sweet and wouldn't retread worn ground due to not competing in the same role and thematics.

    Now, im not entirely opposed to a bard being added, i just havent seen any convincing arguments in their favour.
    If you can't see a way Bards might differentiate themselves from Mages, or just other classes in the game in general, then I don't know what to tell you. Other RPGs have managed, @Ielenia has created a rough concept that's plenty unique, if a person on a forum can create a unique concept then Blizzard, a multi-million dollar game developer responsible for 15 years of WoW can as well.

    One way is to give the spec a melee DPS ''Fencer'' spec if you want to go the dashing scoundrel route with rapiers violins and lutes, or a ''Skald'' spec if you want to go the warrior route, with axes, wardrums and warhorns, a ranged DPS caster spec and a healer, already the Bard then differs from the 'mage' that you seem to think it resembles simply because they share the same element.
    Last edited by LarryFromHumanResources; 2020-05-22 at 01:49 AM.
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  19. #239
    Quote Originally Posted by MikeBogina View Post
    There's bards and dancers and lumberjacks and all that stuff, but there's no cla/ss possibility for a bard. What would they do, play music and buff people? where would the lore be in that?
    "What would priests do? Pray and bless people?"

    There is lore to make a playable bard class in the game. Spells conveyed through song and music, actual bards, and actual bards casting magic spells through their music.

    I'm legit curious as how they would make that work. I play a Shai in BDO and that cla/ss legit is a bard(buffs allies with music) but there's lore in game for why that works. for a cla/ss like that to work, it would have to be a unique case, like some spirits who love music join you and when you play music, they give off energy based on that. But that wouldn't be your traditional bard :/
    I have a bit of a concept on my sig if you want to check it out.
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    Update 08/17: I changed how the Bone spec's golem mechanic works, as well as some other minor changes.
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!
    Update 09/02: Apparently the mods decided to merge my class concept thread with an existing one.

  20. #240
    Quote Originally Posted by SeniorJoker View Post
    Let's be realistic. Bards can't dmg with music or singing. Warcraft movie could be crazy soap opera movie with such things.
    Sounds can easily be a weapon magical or not.

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