Another "I can't breath" death: Police Reform & Protests in the USA

[Shadowferal]

Please revise what you wrote here. You are comparing using tear gas against protestors to killing millions of people in specific build camps. That is not remotely the same.
I get it Trump is a dangerous person for America and in part for the world. But he is in no part "WAY WAY WAY worse than Hitler". These comparisons alienate a good portion of people you try to reach.

Welcome to off-topic.
Where people prefer to score imaginary points rather than convince the opposition of holding a valid argument, let alone try to convince them on their side of it.

The goal here is conflict through ridiculous hyperbole, not logic or reasoning.

[Felya]

Hopefully not much. But we'll see. Like I said, the only thing keeping him from being worse than Hitler is not *quite* having the power Hitler did when he did the things he did. He would be ordering air strikes on "liberal" cities if he had the power to do so.

Both of my grandfathers lost a leg in WW2, fighting on the Russian side. My grandmother was in St Petersburg, eating cardboard, because there was no food. As a kid, I even played in tranches that were built during WW2. I understand the feeling being expressed, as Trump presidency demands some very unscrupulous actions to maintain support... but... taking such a long shot, just covers up those actions. In the end, those who predicted that Hitler was going to be Hitler, got the awesome prize of saying “I told you so” as they march with everyone else. It doesn’t help anything, but your feeling are valid.

[Shadowferal]

The less obvious angle, but very condemning of those assertions... Trump is 74... if he is worse than Hitler, because he is rapidly gaining power....

"Gaining power?"
No. He's actually losing his grasp. Don't let what he's doing today fool you.

[Felya]

Welcome to off-topic.
Where people prefer to score imaginary points rather than convince the opposition of holding a valid argument, let alone try to convince them on their side of it.

The goal here is conflict through ridiculous hyperbole, not logic or reasoning.

Because people are expressing how they feel, which is getting interpreted as factual statement. When questioned, their feelings will be defended, as if they are facts... because, welcome to humans.

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"Gaining power?"
No. He's actually losing his grasp. Don't let what he's doing today fool you.

Can’t... not with that quote in my signature... have to be consistent, or I lose the little credibility that exists on anonymous forums.

[Kiri]

Please revise what you wrote here. You are comparing using tear gas against protestors to killing millions of people in specific build camps. That is not remotely the same.
I get it Trump is a dangerous person for America and in part for the world. But he is in no part "WAY WAY WAY worse than Hitler". These comparisons alienate a good portion of people you try to reach.

Truth be told, the reaching people part is irrelevant. I mean, who would that even be? The information has already been out there for a long time, allowing for people to make their own conclusions. There is no need to reach those who look at the things that happened and found them appalling. They are already on Spark's 'side' to begin with. The only people worth reaching would be either those still on the fence or solidly in team Trump. But honestly, if you have a person that looks at Trump using teargas on peaceful protesters for a photo op and says "looks fine to me" or any of the other crap that's been pulled, what makes you think that person can be 'reached' at all at this point?
None of this is new. Trump has been shattering norms left and right, jumped from scandal to scandal. Most people in the US have already settled on an opinion one way or another, and really nothing we can say or do is going to change that. And those who don't won't at this point won't be swayed by us now.

In short: do you really think there is a significant amount of people out there that looked at Trump's first term so far and would now be convinced not to support him if only it wasn't for the hyperbole?
That was important in the beginning of all this, but by now, the facts should really just speak for themselves. Best to focus one's energy elsewhere.

[Themius]

Please revise what you wrote here. You are comparing using tear gas against protestors to killing millions of people in specific build camps. That is not remotely the same.
I get it Trump is a dangerous person for America and in part for the world. But he is in no part "WAY WAY WAY worse than Hitler". These comparisons alienate a good portion of people you try to reach.

Did you ignore the part of "the only reason he hasn't yet does the things hitler did, or worse, is because he doesn't yet have the power to do it"

we are essentially in the early days of hitler right now, just before he took over supreme power, but after he showed he could dismantle government and do whatever he wanted without being punished.


If trump were in true absolute power... I would imagine massacres. Especially when white domestic terrorist are the good guys already. We have militias itching to kill the blacks, whites, and muslims, and jews. Logically lgbt people will be thrown into that lot.

[Shadowferal]

Truth be told, the reaching people part is irrelevant. I mean, who would that even be?

That sort of defeats the idea of debate.
But it does create "bubbles" and nice echo chambers.

[Noxx79]

Welcome to off-topic.
Where people prefer to score imaginary points rather than convince the opposition of holding a valid argument, let alone try to convince them on their side of it.

The goal here is conflict through ridiculous hyperbole, not logic or reasoning.

How’s that covid disappearing for ya?

[MoeSzyslak]

Did you ignore the part of "the only reason he hasn't yet does the things hitler did, or worse, is because he doesn't yet have the power to do it"

we are essentially in the early days of hitler right now, just before he took over supreme power, but after he showed he could dismantle government and do whatever he wanted without being punished.


If trump were in true absolute power... I would imagine massacres. Especially when white domestic terrorist are the good guys already. We have militias itching to kill the blacks, whites, and muslims, and jews. Logically lgbt people will be thrown into that lot.

And I think this is just not true. He is bad person and nearly every rational argument ist against him but Hitler ist still in a whole other league. The planning and misantrophy of Hitler ist something which very few people have reached in the human history.

Can he take a turn for the even worse? Of course but until now he is just your normal, deluded ordinary autocrat.

[Shadowferal]

And I think this is just not true. He is bad person and nearly every rational argument ist against him but Hitler ist still in a whole other league. The planning and misantrophy of Hitler ist something which very few people have reached in the human history.

Can he take a turn for the even worse? Of course but until now he is just your normal, deluded ordinary autocrat.

True on all points.
The person you're responding to however is an idealogue bordering on zealotry and doesn't care about the truth. I'm near certain he'll be posting about people being lined up to the gas chambers and mass graves soon enough.

[Themius]

And I think this is just not true. He is bad person and nearly every rational argument ist against him but Hitler ist still in a whole other league. The planning and misantrophy of Hitler ist something which very few people have reached in the human history.

Can he take a turn for the even worse? Of course but until now he is just your normal, deluded ordinary autocrat.

You don’t think this is true based on what merits

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True on all points.
The person you're responding to however is an idealogue bordering on zealotry and doesn't care about the truth. I'm near certain he'll be posting about people being lined up to the gas chambers and mass graves soon enough.

Did the Holocaust start with gas chambers?

It started on detainment camps and paramilitaries. And changing of laws and disregard of norms. We are doing all that.

[MoeSzyslak]

You don’t think this is true based on what merits

Hitler planned the whole thing from very early on. Trump can't plan what he will be having for dinner.

His damage is done because he can't see his effect on other poeple and cause of his incompetence. For me that is something very different.

@Shadowferal for my perspetive @Themius has mostly good arguments to underpin his position (rivaled by few on this board). You don't have to share his position but they are well argued.

[Themius]

Hitler planned the whole thing from very early on. Trump can't plan what he will be having for dinner.

His damage is done because he can't see his effect on other poeple and cause of his incompetence. For me that is something very different.

@Shadowferal for my perspetive @Themius has mostly good arguments to underpin his position (rivaled by few on this board). You don't have to share his position but they are well argued.

Perhaps that’s true. The thing is I believe he has shown a pattern of callousness and eagerness that could allow Holocaust like actions and would react with little care. Worse than Hitler maybe not imo but we could end up under a system that looks similar to it with him being like “my ratings look at them. They’re great”

[Noxx79]

True on all points.
The person you're responding to however is an idealogue bordering on zealotry and doesn't care about the truth. I'm near certain he'll be posting about people being lined up to the gas chambers and mass graves soon enough.

Overt racism: “stop comparing trump to hitler”
Dangerous nationalism: “stop comparing trump to hitler”
Concentration camps: “stop comparing trump to hitler”
Political favors for his friends: “stop comparing trump to hitler”
Strongarm authoritarianism “stop comparing trump to hitler”
Invented villainy of the mysterious ‘other’ like the communists “stop comparing trump to hitler”
Now we unmarked secret police detaining innocents: “stop comparing trump to hitler”

[Endus]

And I think this is just not true. He is bad person and nearly every rational argument ist against him but Hitler ist still in a whole other league. The planning and misantrophy of Hitler ist something which very few people have reached in the human history.

Can he take a turn for the even worse? Of course but until now he is just your normal, deluded ordinary autocrat.

Trump is not being compared to Hitler in 1944.
Trump is being compared to Hitler in, say, September 1932. His party won an election but not a majority (much like Trump won 2016, but not the popular vote).
Hitler had secured power by mid-1934, with Hindenburg's death.
The Holocaust proper didn't start until 1941.

But here's the thing; most of us don't want to wait until people are being shoved into concentration camps and industrially executed en masse before saying "hey, wait a minute, what the fuck, this seems familiar". Noting the similarities in rhetoric and authoritarianism between Hitler '32 and Trump '20 is more than enough of a comparison to respond accordingly. Sure, Trump hasn't passed law stating he's President for life yet, but he fucking has talked about removing the barrier to him serving a third term, or cancelling the election; he's already refused to state he'll accept the results in 2020, and he's called for cancelling elections and declaring him the victor regardless. He hasn't had his Reichstag Fire moment, yet. But those kinds of issues are the moment it's too late for effective response. We need to expose this push for totalitarianism before he manages to secure power, because afterwards, it's a Night of Long Knives and then visits by the SS if you're suspected of not supporting the regime.

We want to stop the march towards Nazi-like fascism before the killings and abuses start, not wait until they're well under way and Trump has secured enough power to not care that it's out in the open now. Because then, it's too fucking late.

[Pannonian]

And I think this is just not true. He is bad person and nearly every rational argument ist against him but Hitler ist still in a whole other league. The planning and misantrophy of Hitler ist something which very few people have reached in the human history.

Can he take a turn for the even worse? Of course but until now he is just your normal, deluded ordinary autocrat.

I took Hitler a decade from getting into power to starting mass genocide. You think we should wait until we have the first hill of bodies?

[Stormspark]

Trump is not being compared to Hitler in 1944.
Trump is being compared to Hitler in, say, September 1932. His party won an election but not a majority (much like Trump won 2016, but not the popular vote).
Hitler had secured power by mid-1934, with Hindenburg's death.
The Holocaust proper didn't start until 1941.

But here's the thing; most of us don't want to wait until people are being shoved into concentration camps and industrially executed en masse before saying "hey, wait a minute, what the fuck, this seems familiar". Noting the similarities in rhetoric and authoritarianism between Hitler '32 and Trump '20 is more than enough of a comparison to respond accordingly. Sure, Trump hasn't passed law stating he's President for life yet, but he fucking has talked about removing the barrier to him serving a third term, or cancelling the election; he's already refused to state he'll accept the results in 2020, and he's called for cancelling elections and declaring him the victor regardless. He hasn't had his Reichstag Fire moment, yet. But those kinds of issues are the moment it's too late for effective response. We need to expose this push for totalitarianism before he manages to secure power, because afterwards, it's a Night of Long Knives and then visits by the SS if you're suspected of not supporting the regime.

We want to stop the march towards Nazi-like fascism before the killings and abuses start, not wait until they're well under way and Trump has secured enough power to not care that it's out in the open now. Because then, it's too fucking late.

Also keep in mind, we have concentration camps right now. And people have died in them. They aren't *yet* doing executions en masse but they are spraying dangerous chemicals on people. They are crowding people into small cells and spraying them with this stuff, *undiluted*, leaving people bleeding and with chemical burns, while using "but Covid" as an excuse. (The Nazis said "but Zyklon-B is just a delousing agent".)

https://www.spartanchemical.com/prod...roduct/120204/

And that's just what we know. Nobody knows for sure everything that is going on in the concentration camps. Nobody knew the extent of the Nazi concentration camps either until they were liberated during the war.

[Endus]

Also keep in mind, we have concentration camps right now. And people have died in them. They aren't *yet* doing executions en masse but they are spraying dangerous chemicals on people. They are crowding people into small cells and spraying them with this stuff, *undiluted*, leaving people bleeding and with chemical burns, while using "but Covid" as an excuse. (The Nazis said "but Zyklon-B is just a delousing agent".)

https://www.spartanchemical.com/prod...roduct/120204/

And that's just what we know. Nobody knows for sure everything that is going on in the concentration camps. Nobody knew the extent of the Nazi concentration camps either until they were liberated during the war.

Fair. If we applied the standards these people are using for whether it's legitimate to oppose the regime back in the '30s and '40s, we'd never have united against the Nazi Reich. We'd have continued trying to appease them, because that clearly worked so well.

Fuck that. Even then, we saw the earlier shit as horrible. We don't have to wait until crimes against humanity are widespread before taking a stand. And if Trump and co can't handle being called Nazis, maybe they should get the fuck out of politics because their precious fucking fee-fees are so goddamned fragile.

[Edge-]

Gotta love the "freedom" choir being fine with unknown armed forces kidnapping citizens exercising their right to protest to who-the-fuck-knows-where.

Probably because this time, he is hurting the people he needs to be hurting. In their minds at least.

[Felya]

Hitler planned the whole thing from very early on. Trump can't plan what he will be having for dinner.

His damage is done because he can't see his effect on other poeple and cause of his incompetence. For me that is something very different.

Trump does what it takes and will sacrifice everyone around him, to win... now... what is winning to Trump?