What kinds of effects should replace XP on Heirlooms?

[docterfreeze]

They nerfed their stats a while back, revert that nerf and we're good.

[themaster24]

As to the people talking about how great heirlooms still are because of their consistent value as gear while leveling... You haven't paid much attention to gear while leveling, have you? First, ilvl is meaningless with any gear that has been stat squished. They kinda threw the ilvl budgeting out the window. You can go 3-4 levels at times without your heirlooms ever increasing in power. You can see one piece of gear that has 10 stam, 15 str, 5 crit 5 haste, and another item, same rarity and ilvl, has 10 stam 10 str, 8 crit. On top of that, gear just honestly does not matter while leveling anymore. You could get a set of gear from deadmines or SFK and use it through Burning Crusade with no issue.

Typically I only bother using the heirlooms that have the XP bonus on them, as I get so many greens and blues all the time that are just better than my heirlooms, and by the time my heirlooms catch up, I've already gotten a new piece of gear. I literally can not state enough that having gear that "levels up with you" means nothing when gear itself means nothing. If you remove the XP, I wouldn't waste the time it takes to make the gear, because 1 other gear is just better and 2, even then it honestly doesn't matter at all.

For some, the "consistent value" comes from being able to place a vast multitude of enchants on the gear. Shoulder and leg enchants, legion neck enchants (throw hidden satyr on an heirloom neck and see how much it destroys stuff while leveling), ring enchants, etc. These things aren't feasible for regular questing items.

[Drusin]

That's not the point. You state you try to think of things in the long term. But you're actually not, you're completely bypassing anything that may change during beta or during Shadowlands itself. As if it's set in stone and the only way to rewrite it is shattering the stone and getting new ones. While Blizzard seems to be more of the mindset that things are penciled in and can easily be changed. Plus, the fact that as we see, they can change heirlooms, so there's nothing to stop them from if we do get inflated levels again, they can then change them as they see fit.

Is your argument that it's ok to fuck shit up because it can be fixed? I'd rather not.

Because Blizzard has it stated in the EULA that they have the right to make any changes to anything within the game that they see fit, including things to try and balance the game out.

And I have the right to bitch

Coupled with the fact that we have never gotten a level squish

So we don't have to work off what has happened before then?

.

[Orumden]

Is your argument that it's ok to fuck shit up because it can be fixed? I'd rather not.



And I have the right to bitch


So we don't have to work off what has happened before then?

.

You're whole argument is to bitch for bitching sake.

They're removing a bandaid fix that has been asked for by many customers to be removed since they're inception because lots of people didn't want to have to keep track of yet another set of gear that could very easily get lost in the shuffle of things. So then Blizzard attempted to do that at first by introducing a 5 level expansion, but then people bitched about it not feeling like an expansion (admittedly cata was my least favorite expansion as well), and we had to get a second 5 level expansion in order to fix that first one. They've done things differently each expansion, maybe not right out of the gate, but something new has popped up every expansion that throws consistency out the window. Never had zone scaling, what did Legion do? Always had to go from cata's classic>tbc>wotlk>cata's added zones>mop and so on, then that changed, somewhat, and now even more so in Shadowlands. You cannot say that we can go off of anything before, because everything before has shown something different happening at some point. The only thing consistent before is they added levels and this throws that consistency out the window.

They could very easily just say "hey after Shadowlands you only gain one level, but it takes longer to get that level." Or they could just as easily say that the level squish was such a success that they're only going to have a single level to go through, as in max level will be level 2. We don't know, because Blizzard, or for that matter, any mmo maker, can up and decide at any point in time, that they don't like the direction their game is going, and change it. And by the contract you signed when you made your account, they wouldn't even legally have to tell you any change is coming, they cannot be held liable, and they do not have to offer any type of compensation for anything bought with gold.

The proper thing to do is to ask calmly that they consider giving refunds, and stop acting like a spoiled brat that mommy and daddy never told no.

[Drusin]

You're whole argument is to bitch for bitching sake.

Strange I thought I was bitching because they're removing stuff that doesn't need to be removed.

They're removing a bandaid fix that has been asked for by many customers

But many customers are asking for it to stay.

to be removed since they're inception because lots of people didn't want to have to keep track of yet another set of gear that could very easily get lost in the shuffle of things.

We're still talking about heirlooms right? What do you mean keep track of they have their own interface now.

So then Blizzard attempted to do that at first by introducing a 5 level expansion, but then people bitched about it not feeling like an expansion (admittedly cata was my least favorite expansion as well), and we had to get a second 5 level expansion in order to fix that first one. They've done things differently each expansion, maybe not right out of the gate, but something new has popped up every expansion that throws consistency out the window. Never had zone scaling, what did Legion do? Always had to go from cata's classic>tbc>wotlk>cata's added zones>mop and so on, then that changed, somewhat, and now even more so in Shadowlands. You cannot say that we can go off of anything before, because everything before has shown something different happening at some point. The only thing consistent before is they added levels and this throws that consistency out the window.

They could very easily just say "hey after Shadowlands you only gain one level, but it takes longer to get that level." Or they could just as easily say that the level squish was such a success that they're only going to have a single level to go through, as in max level will be level 2. We don't know, because Blizzard, or for that matter, any mmo maker, can up and decide at any point in time, that they don't like the direction their game is going, and change it. And by the contract you signed when you made your account, they wouldn't even legally have to tell you any change is coming, they cannot be held liable, and they do not have to offer any type of compensation for anything bought with gold.

So what you're telling me is, I should stfu wait until I see that things are fucked up and then hope and pray the change happens?

The proper thing to do is to ask calmly that they consider giving refunds, and stop acting like a spoiled brat that mommy and daddy never told no.

Uh oh throwing in insults now that's not becoming at all rofl

[Orumden]

Strange I thought I was bitching because they're removing stuff that doesn't need to be removed.


But many customers are asking for it to stay.


We're still talking about heirlooms right? What do you mean keep track of they have their own interface now.


So what you're telling me is, I should stfu wait until I see that things are fucked up and then hope and pray the change happens?


Uh oh throwing in insults now that's not becoming at all rofl

You're completely jumping straight to "things are going to be messed up in this expansion, but they might not be in two to four or more years from now." which is again you just bitching to bitch. Blizzard is the ones who decide what they feel needs to be removed from the game, as we do not own anything in their game. You may not think it needs to be removed, but there's an equal amount of people that think it does, and have thought it does, since they were first put in the game. Hell, even before they announced the exp bonus removal, there were people on the official forums saying that with the exp gain buff and level squish coming in Shadowlands, would now be the time to remove the exp bonus from them, or just flat out ditch the heirlooms all together.

Heirlooms didn't have a collection tab for many, many years. People literally bought multiple of the same if they wanted to enchant them with other things another class of the same armor type didn't favor what they put on one set. Heirlooms have always been a bandaid fix for a leveling problem that when introduced required a minimum of 79 level ups. There was nowhere stating the the exp bonus on them would be permanent, but there is a place stating that anything can be changed in game at Blizzards decision. If the only purpose of heirlooms was to ever be an exp boost item, then they never would've introduced weapons, necklaces and trinkets without the exp boost on them. They were scaling items that provided a bonus, at the time it was an exp bonus, come Shadowlands it could be anything that would increase the exp per hour with them.

No one as of now has any idea what they are doing to heirlooms besides removing the exp bonus. They could make it so you kill things in 3-4 hits while someone without needs 9-10 hits to kill the same thing. Or you could pull 20 mobs and come out with 80% health and resource your class uses if they just buff the stats, which someone without would die. Both things increase time to level by at minimum 60% without it having increased exp bonus. And even a much less likely option, since I highly doubt they'd want to balance out having people with a near permanent sprint running around, they could take those percentages the heirlooms give in bonus exp and use that same percentage as movement speed.

In mmos you cannot think about what is to come in something that isn't currently being worked on. You have to focus on what is currently in the works of the game, because once you let yourself believe that things are final for an expansion, you set yourself up for disappointment for things that can still be changed for that expansion. You then start treating a game like it's from the old console days where games released as "finished" products, instead of as something that can constantly changed thru patches and what not.

Long term thinking does not 100% work for games as they are now, especially if you go more than a year out. Blizzard could literally implement Shadowlands right now, it would be a complete mess, but they could. And then once the final patch for Shadowlands comes out they could decide they're done with WoW, or they could make a new expansion, or hell, we could even see them do something like the Necromancer from Diablo 3. There's no telling what they are going to be doing from day to day. So focus on what information you do have, and report it to Blizzard instead of crying that the sky could fall in any number of years from now.

[Drusin]

whew lawd your wrote a short story lol.

You're completely jumping straight to "things are going to be messed up in this expansion, but they might not be in two to four or more years from now." which is again you just bitching to bitch.

You know I was wondering earlier if I was clear or not when I said

Stuff like this is tricky, how I feel about the game and how you feel about the game are likely going to be different because of playstyle differences.

I'm fine with BFA so I'm not saying anything is fucked up. And I'm still saying "Blizz is removing stuff that doesn't need to be removed"

Blizzard is the ones who decide what they feel needs to be removed from the game, as we do not own anything in their game.

Yep, it's their property, they can do what they want, that doesn't mean I have to like it.

You may not think it needs to be removed, but there's an equal amount of people that think it does

You fight for what you believe and I'll fight for what I believe I don't think I ever said anyone doesn't have a right to speak their opinion.

Hell, even before they announced the exp bonus removal, there were people on the official forums saying that with the exp gain buff and level squish coming in Shadowlands, would now be the time to remove the exp bonus from them, or just flat out ditch the heirlooms all together.

Yep, I remember lol

Heirlooms didn't have a collection tab for many, many years.

But it does now

People literally bought multiple of the same if they wanted to enchant them with other things another class of the same armor type didn't favor what they put on one set.

Yep, and it was a pain in the ass remembering where your heirlooms were lol

There was nowhere stating the the exp bonus on them would be permanent

There's never been anything saying that anything in the game was permanent

but there is a place stating that anything can be changed in game at Blizzards decision

And there's a place that says I can bitch about it if I don't agree

If the only purpose of heirlooms was to ever be an exp boost item, then they never would've introduced weapons, necklaces and trinkets without the exp boost on them.

Sure they would have, why not?

They were scaling items that provided a bonus, at the time it was an exp bonus, come Shadowlands it could be anything that would increase the exp per hour with them.

I can't stress enough the amount of suspense I feel at what the buffs will be on looms to be equal to a raw 50% xp buff.

No one as of now has any idea what they are doing to heirlooms besides removing the exp bonus. They could make it so you kill things in 3-4 hits while someone without needs 9-10 hits to kill the same thing.

Yep, it's been said a few times that whatever they replace it with will have to be pretty OP lol

Or you could pull 20 mobs and come out with 80% health and resource your class uses if they just buff the stats, which someone without would die.

Nah that's shit, I can already do that if I can find 20 mobs close enough that won't leash lol

And even a much less likely option, since I highly doubt they'd want to balance out having people with a near permanent sprint running around, they could take those percentages the heirlooms give in bonus exp and use that same percentage as movement speed.

They could make a toy that gives 50% xp buff for an hour

In mmos you cannot think about what is to come in something that isn't currently being worked on.

But Blizz is working on it, they've said a couple times they are working 2 xpacs ahead, I'd like them to know I'm concerned about the state of leveling in future xpacs

You have to focus on what is currently in the works of the game

Like the xp buff on heirlooms

Long term thinking does not 100% work for games as they are now, especially if you go more than a year out.

.
Agree to disagree

Blizzard could literally implement Shadowlands right now, it would be a complete mess, but they could. And then once the final patch for Shadowlands comes out they could decide they're done with WoW, or they could make a new expansion, or hell, we could even see them do something like the Necromancer from Diablo 3.

If Blizz decides they are done with WoW what would you do? I'd personally be looking for what private server everyone goes to

There's no telling what they are going to be doing from day to day. So focus on what information you do have

You're right, I should. What's going on today is xp buff is being removed and I must stop it! lol

and report it to Blizzard instead of crying that the sky could fall in any number of years from now.

You're starting to develop a pattern here, I'm curious if it will continue, hopefully so it's giving me a good laugh rofl

And man that really was a fucking book, was typing and quoting stuff for so long I need another cigarette lol.

[Orumden]

whew lawd your wrote a short story lol.



You know I was wondering earlier if I was clear or not when I said


I'm fine with BFA so I'm not saying anything is fucked up. And I'm still saying "Blizz is removing stuff that doesn't need to be removed"


Yep, it's their property, they can do what they want, that doesn't mean I have to like it.


You fight for what you believe and I'll fight for what I believe I don't think I ever said anyone doesn't have a right to speak their opinion.


Yep, I remember lol


But it does now


Yep, and it was a pain in the ass remembering where your heirlooms were lol


There's never been anything saying that anything in the game was permanent


And there's a place that says I can bitch about it if I don't agree


Sure they would have, why not?


I can't stress enough the amount of suspense I feel at what the buffs will be on looms to be equal to a raw 50% xp buff.


Yep, it's been said a few times that whatever they replace it with will have to be pretty OP lol



Nah that's shit, I can already do that if I can find 20 mobs close enough that won't leash lol


They could make a toy that gives 50% xp buff for an hour


But Blizz is working on it, they've said a couple times they are working 2 xpacs ahead, I'd like them to know I'm concerned about the state of leveling in future xpacs


Like the xp buff on heirlooms

.
Agree to disagree


If Blizz decides they are done with WoW what would you do? I'd personally be looking for what private server everyone goes to


You're right, I should. What's going on today is xp buff is being removed and I must stop it! lol


You're starting to develop a pattern here, I'm curious if it will continue, hopefully so it's giving me a good laugh rofl

And man that really was a fucking book, was typing and quoting stuff for so long I need another cigarette lol.

All of your points become moot with the level squish, sure you could pull 20 now, but what about after the level squish. Oh, that's right, you want to think past what is currently being worked on and go to years down the line, I forgot that.

Blizzard also says a lot of things, doesn't mean any of it's true, remember back in vanilla they said they'd never add flying? Or every other thing they said they'd never add but did, or that they wouldn't remove, but did?

There are a lot of things that can beat out a 50% flat bonus to exp. Like I pointed out in my example, that is a flat out minimum of 60% bonus to exp per hour. 10% more than what we have with heirlooms. If you're killing things faster, you're completing quests faster and completing zones faster, so I'll keep using my example.

You have a quest to kill 10 things, you have heirlooms on, allowing you to kill all 10 in at minimum 30 hits, while no heirlooms (nh) takes a minimum of 90 hits, you got all the kills done in 60% of the time than nh. You go and turn in the quest and the next one is to kill 10 more, in this time to go back and turn in the quest and come back, nh has maybe killed at minimum 2 more quest mobs, so he's still at 6/10 on the first quest, you are starting to kill the next 10, you finish quest 2 while nh is fighting his last mob for quest one. You are an entire quest ahead of nh at this point simply from being able to kill something faster. Thus giving you a faster exp per hour than someone not using them, which means you'll still wind up getting to 50 60% faster than any nh in the game. The only time this would change, is if you only do dungeons to level, and I wouldn't wish that hell on anyone who decided to pick cata as their expansion to level in, because of dungeons like gnomer being a thing that could scale to 50 in sl.

There are a ton of things that can be used to increase the speed at which you level without it being, as they said, "here's a bunch of extra experience."

If heirlooms, again, were only added as just a flat way to give bonus experience, please explain why they would add pieces that don't have bonus experience. I await your reasoning. Because as far as I can tell, people who claim to only buy them for the bonus experience would never have bought pieces that didn't have it, because again, it wouldn't give bonus exp. "But they maybe wanted something they didn't have to replace." would mess your argument up, because that would mean Blizzard is doing what the customer wanted by allowing them to still have the ability to not replace a piece of gear.

[DeltrusDisc]

I've spent A LOT of gold upgrading all my heirlooms. If they're going to remove the only reason I upgraded them then I deserve my gold back. Because had Blizzard said that they would have eventually removed the experience boost then I never would have bothered upgrading them.

Yes and you got to level up characters with them when it mattered to you.

You would have still bought them because you would have still wanted faster leveling, back then.

Unless you just upgraded them 6 months ago (lol) then why are you so bothered? Upgrading them over the course of a few expansions slowly really takes away the sting. They've helped me level many characters thus now I am not that bothered with the idea of them being removed. Honestly, I kinda want them removed. They make dungeon runs far less fun... Being an efficiency-minded player though, I still know it is better to wear the heirlooms than to just wear normal gear and get upgrades in dungeons like the old days, because then I'll level much slower. They take it away for everyone? Hell yeah, back to basics kids!

Now I just want to see an overall revamp of the zones a-la Cataclysm, but that's for another thread.

[Krakan]

I'm not really sure they should add anything wouldn't it make them give a really powerful edge over new players?

Right now their are powerful but usually a bit below same level gear with the exception of MoP mythic quality weapon heirlooms and wods mythic dungeon one.

[gaymer77]

https://shadowlands.wowhead.com/item...ampion&bonus=0

https://shadowlands.wowhead.com/item...ampion&bonus=0

Still have xp bonuses as of now, wonder what replacements these will get aswell.

Probably nothing because exp gains from battlegrounds is shit compared to the exp gains from quests, killing mobs, and completing dungeons. The other heirloom gear has the exp gains removed though which makes sense because their exp gains were from all sources not just battlegrounds.

- - - Updated - - -

Since they can still be enchanted, still scale in stats as you level up, and can be transmogged into something else and not have to change that transmog until you hit level cap (or cap for heirlooms) it is something that still will be useful or considered a QOL item.

[Drusin]

All of your points become moot with the level squish, sure you could pull 20 now, but what about after the level squish.

Well, I would think that I could still do the exact same things I can do now, if I can't then there will be a new discussion to have

Oh, that's right, you want to think past what is currently being worked on and go to years down the line, I forgot that.

Thinking past what's being worked on is thinking of what's being worked on since that'll be what we play with until we get to our mythical point years down the line lol. #NeverForget

Blizzard also says a lot of things, doesn't mean any of it's true

I know, so then should we nitpick what we choose to believe or believe none of it?

There are a lot of things that can beat out a 50% flat bonus to exp.

Yep, but we have to juggle around the effects of the gear on low level pvp

Like I pointed out in my example, that is a flat out minimum of 60% bonus to exp per hour. 10% more than what we have with heirlooms. If you're killing things faster, you're completing quests faster and completing zones faster, so I'll keep using my example.

Good, I hope you do since it's the same example I used the day they made the announcement The problem I had with it was low level pvp.

The only time this would change, is if you only do dungeons to level, and I wouldn't wish that hell on anyone who decided to pick cata as their expansion to level in, because of dungeons like gnomer being a thing that could scale to 50 in sl.

Actually, there's two other times it can change

1. I choose to level in BGs, what benefit does the power effects have then? Are they still there? Am I murdering people without heirlooms? or do you disable them against players? That seems like the most obvious argument, but then that means I get no xp buff when I get xp in BGs so I'm without my damage buff and my xp buff = net loss.

2. Escort quests, no mobs to damage so finishing the quest gives the same xp and looms give 0 benefit vs today 50% xp.

There are a ton of things that can be used to increase the speed at which you level without it being, as they said, "here's a bunch of extra experience."

And like I said, I look forward to seeing what Blizz chooses lol

If heirlooms, again, were only added as just a flat way to give bonus experience, please explain why they would add pieces that don't have bonus experience.


I await your reasoning.

Being waited on makes me feel important :} I'm not sure what answer you expect here, just because heirlooms exist without an xp bonus doesn't mean that it's fine for all heirlooms to have their xp bonus stripped. Also if you could do me a favor and quote where I said heirlooms were only for bonus xp

Because as far as I can tell, people who claim to only buy them for the bonus experience would never have bought pieces that didn't have it

I also don't recall saying this, I'd buy literally and heirloom rock that does nothing if Blizz added it because I'm a collector and that's something to collect. But still no reason to remove xp bonus.

because again, it wouldn't give bonus exp.

Collector life is tough

"But they maybe wanted something they didn't have to replace." would mess your argument up

Probably would, luckily I haven't said it yet, others have though, but we all fight for different reasons

[pinkz]

i don't mind them removing XP buff

prior to BFA blizzard nerfed BOA heirloom gear 2 ways.

-scaling blizzard made them equal to greens, and below dungeon blues which they used to equal. i will use player level 20 as a example
- BOA heirlooms 24
- dungeon blues item level 26
- green drops item level 24-25
- PVP crate greens item level 25
- PVP crate blues item level 31
- quest reward greens item level 20, but these can proc blue item level 26, or epic item level 32

[B]-versatility[B] blizzard added this stat to alot of gear, even gear that never had spirit. BOAs heirlooms shoulder. helm. chest, legs, rings. and weapons never got any versatility added on vendor gear. it is noticeable in dungeons and BG leveling when it comes to survival. having my BOA gear auto level and be higher does not help me when a another player has 10-15% versatility and is using lower stat gear from previous levels

i would like to see them add versatility to BOA gear and match the gear match dungeon rewards of equal level like they did before

yes there are three trinkets with versatility, two are harder to acquire, other you need a garrison, or buy thru trade chat. but having just 2 of the 3 is not enough. one cloak has some too but minor

[Orumden]

I also don't recall saying this, I'd buy literally and heirloom rock that does nothing if Blizz added it because I'm a collector and that's something to collect. But still no reason to remove xp bonus.


Collector life is tough

So you just proved my point about you bitching just to bitch. If you'd buy an heirloom rock with no stats or anything on it, then why oh why worry about what Blizz is replacing? After all, years down the line, the servers will shut down, so all of your collections will mean nothing. Will you say that there's no reason for them to shut the servers down then?

Blizz has a direction on where they want the game to go. So you can say "no reason to." But Blizz clearly thinks otherwise. You can whine all you want, doesn't mean you'll get your way.

[Drusin]

So you just proved my point about you bitching just to bitch.


If you'd buy an heirloom rock with no stats or anything on it, then why oh why worry about what Blizz is replacing?

So because I'm a collector I should let Blizz fuck shit up?

After all, years down the line, the servers will shut down, so all of your collections will mean nothing.

They mean nothing now but I still enjoy doing it

Will you say that there's no reason for them to shut the servers down then?

Nah if they stop making money they'll have to shut them down, I'll just go to private servers then and restart my collecting ggez

Blizz has a direction on where they want the game to go.

Me too rofl

So you can say "no reason to." But Blizz clearly thinks otherwise.

That's fine, it's their game after all, all I can do is my bitching

You can whine all you want, doesn't mean you'll get your way.

You're right but if I don't whine then I certainly won't get my way Seems to me whining is more beneficial

Whining got timewalking dungeons adjusted
Kara portals
and it got pathfinder (instead of "no flying in future expansions")

but whining didn't:
-Get zoom distance back
-Mop portals back
-or keep the brutosaur from being put on the BMAH


It seems whining does work sometimes so you'll have to present a pretty good argument for me not to do it when it could get me what I want

[Makabreska]

Faster mov speed, constant or in short bursts. Faster swimming/longer breath holding (although that second part is mostly covered by extra quest items). Slow fall/glide. Faster out of combat hp regen. CDR. Self res on a CD. They could mix it up and put for example mov speed on all the boots, and slow fall on cloaks. Lots of possibilities to make heirlooms relevant w/o exp buff.

[Orumden]

So because I'm a collector I should let Blizz fuck shit up?

And replacing the bonus exp on something messes things up how exactly? Oh no, I don't have little green text telling me I get more exp, so I don't want to do math to figure out my exp per hour with a change, oh woe is me, however will I level a new character now.

They mean nothing now but I still enjoy doing it


Nah if they stop making money they'll have to shut them down, I'll just go to private servers then and restart my collecting ggez

Until they decide to really crackdown and start locking all private servers down.

Me too rofl

Yes, but here's the thing, you can choose to leave if you don't like the change. You don't have to leave, but no, you decide to bitch that Blizzard is finally trying to refix a problem that caused heirlooms to be introduced in the first place.

That's fine, it's their game after all, all I can do is my bitching


You're right but if I don't whine then I certainly won't get my way Seems to me whining is more beneficial

Whining got timewalking dungeons adjusted
Kara portals
and it got pathfinder (instead of "no flying in future expansions")

but whining didn't:
-Get zoom distance back
-Mop portals back
-or keep the brutosaur from being put on the BMAH


It seems whining does work sometimes so you'll have to present a pretty good argument for me not to do it when it could get me what I want

Never said it didn't, said it doesn't mean it will happen. But here's the thing, in most, if not all, of those situations, people threatened to quit, and Blizzard knew that the way the game was then, it would be harder to entice newer players to come join and stick around. Now they're making it so newer players will more likely stick around with the ease of leveling being implemented.

[Ulfric Trumpcloak]

Wouldn't mind if they made them equivalent to purple gear again. That's the way they used to be, but got nerfed down to rare/blue.

[glowpipe]

Equip: Refunds all the gold you spent on this worthless trash.

thats fine, but then you should also get all the extra xp you gained using this "worthless crap", taken away aswell. Chars should be rolled back

[Trinkie]

They dont need to consistently be bis, they just need to be consistent, which they are

This. When they're twice as good as other levelling options then people actually start to get a worse experience. Back when heirloom gear gave you 150% more stats it was quite noticeable when you got a non heirloom tank in dungeons, which in turn gave him a worse experiece because he would get berated by the healer about why he sucks so much.

It also skews the dungeon difficulty massively