Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

And possibly maimed souls of the Forsaken back to them? If they retroactively explain the Forsaken's cursed state of mind that way. Their lack of joy or any positive emotions, etc. Like Sylvanas and Uther.

I know not every forsaken was killed by frostmourne. But they all have a connection to the powers of the maw. Either subservient to the lich king or raised by (forsworn) valkyrs

PS: I think this is something that could justify Calia's seemingly irrelevant presence in Shadowlands, if she were to participate in this development somehow. Sylvanas probably would be involved as well.
Just my 2 cents.

Honestly if Blizz did this smartly they could yeah solve a lot of problems with the Forsaken right there. Also potentially justify how new Forsaken can continue to be made in 10.0 onward.

But I still have this nagging fear they won't and instead the Scourge will just disappear and the Forsaken will somehow keep showing up. And when asked why Iron won't touch the lore and just say "Well we weren't going to remove a playable race."

[Super Dickmann]

While using the hat to complete the neutering of the Forsaken begun in BTS would be a good way to make sure that they get to suffer the same dicking as their opposite number in an expansion where Blizzard's other red-headed stepchild the night elves had their goddess turned into a moron, I doubt it'll happen as that'd require anyone on the writing team to recall that they still exist.

The Scourge being active is not something to fix, it's something to utilize in future stories as the element of a setting to bring back the undead into focus into a depleted world. They won't do this, of course, but they should.

[Ersula]

And possibly maimed souls of the Forsaken back to them? If they retroactively explain the Forsaken's cursed state of mind that way. Their lack of joy or any positive emotions, etc. Like Sylvanas and Uther.

I know not every forsaken was killed by frostmourne. But they all have a connection to the powers of the maw. Either subservient to the lich king or raised by (forsworn) valkyrs

PS: I think this is something that could justify Calia's seemingly irrelevant presence in Shadowlands, if she were to participate in this development somehow. Sylvanas probably would be involved as well.
Just my 2 cents.

The Forsaken always had their souls. There are Forsaken souls in Bastion. The Soul Wound only comes from Frostmorne. There is no connection to the Maw for normal Forsaken. Otherwise Undeath is the same as being resurrected but with a minor mutation. And I assume Se'ra was introduced to finally give them a way to reproduce.

Although, yes. This is a plot hole. Shouldn't the Valkyr resurrection also have the same connection to the jailer as Frostmorne? And Thesarrian & Koltira have a discussion about never encountering the Shadowlands. Apparently this is like Sylvanas, as she didn't see the Shadowlands until her second death. But Thesarrian was killed with Frostmorne & Koltira wasn't.

Maybe Dansuer should have firmed up his grasp on how undeath works in this universe before revolving an expansion around it.

[Sondrelk]

I imagine that the easiest way to explain new Forsaken is that they are ones who chose undeath over death like Zelling did in BfA.
Either that, or new Forsaken are just told they did not leave until the moment the character is created. Your character could have chosen undeath, or they could have been ressurected, just not woken up yet. The science behind magical ressurection is soft to basically be a fluid, so there isnt really anything that specifically prevents undead from having been stuck in a crypt somewhere unable to leave until a Forsaken expedition finds you.

But honestly the idea that the Forsaken strictly needs a constant stream of new characters doesnt really make sense in lore anyways. The new opening questline in Cata already required quite a bit of stretching on their identity. I don't see why they couldnt just go back to where they were, and explain that they all decided to just ressurrect those that consented in life instead.
It would require some kind of reconciliation with the living humans, but now that Sylvanas is gone I don't see why this couldnt happen. I am sure there are Forsaken and Humans that want to see their families, and I am sure there are humans who are willing to be undead rather than die.

[Hugnomo]

The Forsaken always had their souls. There are Forsaken souls in Bastion. The Soul Wound only comes from Frostmorne. There is no connection to the Maw for normal Forsaken. Otherwise Undeath is the same as being resurrected but with a minor mutation. And I assume Se'ra was introduced to finally give them a way to reproduce.

Although, yes. This is a plot hole. Shouldn't the Valkyr resurrection also have the same connection to the jailer as Frostmorne? And Thesarrian & Koltira have a discussion about never encountering the Shadowlands. Apparently this is like Sylvanas, as she didn't see the Shadowlands until her second death. But Thesarrian was killed with Frostmorne & Koltira wasn't.

Maybe Dansuer should have firmed up his grasp on how undeath works in this universe before revolving an expansion around it.

That's why I said "retroactively", otherwise known as "retcon".
Sylvanas' split/dual soul was also never established before this expansion. Neither was Uther's. They have served to explain their resentful, angry selves in their incomplete state. The Forsaken, through their resurrection, also become resentful and angry in a way they had not been in life. I don't think it's that absurd to assume that it's possible they'll extend the same reasoning to them.

Forsaken in Bastion could still be incomplete, just as Uther was.

(and even then it isn't necessarily a retcon, since it's merely being added upon previous lore and isn't explicitly contradicting previous lore.)

[Ersula]

Personally, I’ve always been suspicious of the souls popping out of Frostmourne (in conveniently trustworthy guises {which were souls that had been scarred by said blade}) and demanding we keep a Lich King around.

Would it be so crazy to imagine that the Jailer, who always wanted to have a subservient Lich King on Azeroth, might have been behind the frankly nonsensical notion? He clearly didn’t expect the first 2 to be such an impediment to his plans. Why not try a third time?

This has already been confirmed. The Bolvar story that came out shortly before Shadowlands is about how there is a will behind the helm older than Arthas & Nerzul, now known to be Zovaal, the Jailer. And he was feeling his grasp overcoming him, so he ordered his Horsemen to leave, concoct a way to kill him, then do so before the Jailer could take full control of him. Then the Plan would be to start the process over again with Darian as Lich King. But that was the moment Sylvanas attacked in the Cinematic.

So basically, Zovaal uses domination magic to project his will through the helm into Azeroth. There likely doesn't need to be a Lich King with Zovaal destroyed & they're likely only using the Helm to reverse the polarity of the neutron flow of his Domination magic.

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Forsaken in Bastion could still be incomplete, just as Uther was.

But the game is very explicit about that not being the case. It has to be a wound from Frostmorne. They're not just going to get rid of all undead once this expansion is over.

The Forsaken, through their resurrection, also become resentful and angry in a way they had not been in life. I don't think it's that absurd to assume that it's possible they'll extend the same reasoning to them.

Not particularly. Forsaken elves, yes absolutely. Because they were mostly killed by Arthas, with Frostmorne as he led the attack on the Sunwell. But not player, Human Forsaken; they are generally macabre, not hateful. They were transformed by a plague. If they were in the same situation as Uther, they'd appear as their human selves in Bastion, pre-transformation. But no, they went there after they were turned into Forsaken, so in this very same expansion, the game is saying their souls are complete & pure.

[Black Rider]

Bring back pandaria!
https://old.reddit.com/r/wow/comment..._kind_i_spent/

[Super Dickmann]

That's why I said "retroactively", otherwise known as "retcon".
Sylvanas' split/dual soul was also never established before this expansion. Neither was Uther's. They have served to explain their resentful, angry selves in their incomplete state. The Forsaken, through their resurrection, also become resentful and angry in a way they had not been in life. I don't think it's that absurd to assume that it's possible they'll extend the same reasoning to them.

Forsaken in Bastion could still be incomplete, just as Uther was.

(and even then it isn't necessarily a retcon, since it's merely being added upon previous lore and isn't explicitly contradicting previous lore.)

The reasoning is completely unrequired, undeath already suppresses positive emotions and encourages negative ones. Note: supress, not eliminate, hence why they're still varied in personality and can show affection, patriotism etc.. This is caused by the misalignment of soul and body. The soul splitting plot device is just an elaborate responsibility removal tool that's redundant with the way undeath works by default and has continued to work as recently as the DK short story before Shadowlands. Beyond simply being pointless with the current undeath lore or counter to the Forsaken identity which supporters of such a retcon support as a given, it's also logistically nonsensical. Arthas didn't manually kill the massive amount of inhabitants of Lordaeron. While a number of them should have split souls, it'd by no means be a majority.

[Ersula]

The reasoning is completely unrequired, undeath already suppresses positive emotions and encourages negative ones. Note: supress, not eliminate, hence why they're still varied in personality and can show affection, patriotism etc.. This is caused by the misalignment of soul and body. The soul splitting plot device is just an elaborate responsibility removal tool that's redundant with the way undeath works by default and has continued to work as recently as the DK short story before Shadowlands. Beyond simply being pointless with the current undeath lore or counter to the Forsaken identity which supporters of such a retcon support as a given, it's also logistically nonsensical. Arthas didn't manually kill the massive amount of inhabitants of Lordaeron. While a number of them should have split souls, it'd by no means be a majority.

That's what you would glean from observing these characters, but they've clarified being killed with Frostmorne locks you into your emotional state when you died: Fear, Pain, Betrayal. But there are undead characters who don't act this way. As for WotLK era Death Knights, theres ambiguity that works in the player's favor: If you were killed by Frostmorne or not, that character trait is up to you.

Also, take the Night Elf Forsaken: They are especially conflicted. Sira turns on Elune & the entirety of her society when she is raised, but she was expressing these ideas *before* she died. In the Night Warrior questline, she has already lost faith in Elune, feels like Tyrande has done a bad job leading them & feels ignored by Maiev when she expresses these feelings. So its not a stretch when she names them her enemy. But with the current canon the other undead Night Elves probably don't feel that way. That's why I expect a prospective Night Elf Forsaken allied race to stick with the Alliance.

[Hugnomo]

But the game is very explicit about that not being the case. It has to be a wound from Frostmorne. They're not just going to get rid of all undead once this expansion is over.
Not particularly. Forsaken elves, yes absolutely. Because they were mostly killed by Arthas, with Frostmorne as he led the attack on the Sunwell. But not player, Human Forsaken; they are generally macabre, not hateful. They were transformed by a plague. If they were in the same situation as Uther, they'd appear as their human selves in Bastion, pre-transformation. But no, they went there after they were turned into Forsaken, so in this very same expansion, the game is saying their souls are complete & pure.

The reasoning is completely unrequired, undeath already suppresses positive emotions and encourages negative ones. Note: supress, not eliminate, hence why they're still varied in personality and can show affection, patriotism etc.. This is caused by the misalignment of soul and body. The soul splitting plot device is just an elaborate responsibility removal tool that's redundant with the way undeath works by default and has continued to work as recently as the DK short story before Shadowlands. Beyond simply being pointless with the current undeath lore or counter to the Forsaken identity which supporters of such a retcon support as a given, it's also logistically nonsensical. Arthas didn't manually kill the massive amount of inhabitants of Lordaeron. While a number of them should have split souls, it'd by no means be a majority.

I'm not necessarily saying it will happen. Nor that it's necessary. I'm just saying I wouldn't be surprised if they went that route considering what they've done with Uther and Sylvanas (which is all new lore and information, more recent than the DK campaign, which didn't need a precedent to be implemented, it just was). As I've granted before, they weren't all murdered by frostmourne. Which seems to be a factor in Uther and Sylvanas. But even then, the mere fact that they were all murdered in connection to powers or beings of the Maw/Jailer, seems it might be sufficient for Blizzard to bridge the concept to them as well. But that's just my hunch. I'm not making a value judgement.

Super Dickmann, I understand your reasonings/preferences/opinions and I respect them. We've debated most of this before. We'll have to wait and see what comes out of there. On the plus side, we're much closer to that point than we were when we last discussed this. There's no point talking in absolutes in an everchanging story that's often retconned or at least reframed. We'll see!

[TheFirstOnes]

I am calm? Where did my post indicate I wasn’t ? Honestly, if anyone needs to calm down it’s you, buddy. I’m just having a discussion.

I am tryna discuss with you also.

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I seriously think all of you have no real perception as to what a Retcon ACTUALLY is…

[Ersula]

But even then, the mere fact that they were all murdered in connection to powers or beings of the Maw/Jailer, seems it might be sufficient for Blizzard to bridge the concept to them as well. But that's just my hunch. I'm not making a value judgement.

The Jailer's power isn't even "Death," its "Domination". I maintain the actual necromancy involved in undeath has nothing to do with the Maw or Jailer, its that they were the easiest thing to dominate.

For example, Alonsus Faol: He didn't die to plague. He died in his sleep, of old age. He was presumably raised by reckless necromantic forces & retained his free will.

[GR8GODZILLAGOD]

I am tryna discuss with you also.

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I seriously think all of you have no real perception as to what a Retcon ACTUALLY is…

Well, you did a pretty poor job of it with how your post was addressing me.

[Super Dickmann]

I'm not necessarily saying it will happen. Nor that it's necessary. I'm just saying I wouldn't be surprised if they went that route considering what they've done with Uther and Sylvanas (which is all new lore and information, more recent than the DK campaign, which didn't need a precedent to be implemented, it just was). As I've granted before, they weren't all murdered by frostmourne. Which seems to be a factor in Uther and Sylvanas. But even then, the mere fact that they were all murdered in connection to powers or beings of the Maw/Jailer, seems it might be sufficient for Blizzard to bridge the concept to them as well. But that's just my hunch. I'm not making a value judgement.

Super Dickmann, I understand your reasonings/preferences/opinions and I respect them. We've debated most of this before. We'll have to wait and see what comes out of there. On the plus side, we're much closer to that point than we were when we last discussed this. There's no point talking in absolutes in an everchanging story that's often retconned or at least reframed. We'll see!

The DK story I mean is pre-release material for Shadowlands. I wouldn't use it as reasoning for why that wouldn't be changed, given how it contradicts BTS which itself contradicts all prior undead lore, so Blizzard could easily retcon it. Neither is it because I doubt Blizzard would do it given their goal to homogenize all races into lawful good human recolours. Rather I doubt it because of Blizzard's overall ditching of addressing the mess that's left of the Forsaken as that's simply not an element ever brought up in Shadowlands. They backed off bringing in Calia to lead them and "tirelessly striving to protect the living" for the time being and I think they'll wait on that particular plot beat for 10.0, both for lack of time to cover it and because it's perennial to the plot. It'll still happen, just not in Shadowlands. Plus, given the confirmation that next expansion will be on Azeroth I think they'd want to keep their cards open as much as possible.

That's what you would glean from observing these characters, but they've clarified being killed with Frostmorne locks you into your emotional state when you died: Fear, Pain, Betrayal. But there are undead characters who don't act this way. As for WotLK era Death Knights, theres ambiguity that works in the player's favor: If you were killed by Frostmorne or not, that character trait is up to you.

Also, take the Night Elf Forsaken: They are especially conflicted. Sira turns on Elune & the entirety of her society when she is raised, but she was expressing these ideas *before* she died. In the Night Warrior questline, she has already lost faith in Elune, feels like Tyrande has done a bad job leading them & feels ignored by Maiev when she expresses these feelings. So its not a stretch when she names them her enemy. But with the current canon the other undead Night Elves probably don't feel that way. That's why I expect a prospective Night Elf Forsaken allied race to stick with the Alliance.

Except it plainly doesn't since while Uther is assmad about Arthas he already regrets his life choices (for whatever reason) well before he's fused with his other part and he turns on the Mawsworn prior to stitching his soul back together. Sylvanas doesn't even merit description in how much her emotional state vascillates, but she's also not bound to a single emotional state, it's just that the negatives are emphasized. She still feels for her sisters or Nathanos or what have you. Her views on undeath pivot based on grounds of self-preservation rather than emotion after Edge of Night. In that regard, she's a lot like other undead. The Ebon Blade differ in that they have the suffering addiction in-built, but the Forsaken don't.

The Undead Night Elves are actually an example for the same thing - they aren't killed by Frostmourne, they're raised with generic necromancy but they still show the signs of undeath in regards to the emphasis on negative emotions. The effects of soul splitting and undeath are identical, it's just that one comes with a Get out of Jail Free card for Sylvanas and the other doesn't hence this tortured series of events.

[Ersula]

Except it plainly doesn't since while Uther is assmad about Arthas he already regrets his life choices (for whatever reason) well before he's fused with his other part and he turns on the Mawsworn prior to stitchig his soul back together.

They're still able to act rationally while in this emotional state.

Sylvanas doesn't even merit description in how much her emotional state vascillates, but she's also not bound to a single emotional state, it's just that the negatives are emphasized. She still feels for her sisters or Nathanos or what have you. Her views on undeath pivot based on grounds of self-preservation rather than emotion after Edge of Night. In that regard, she's a lot like other undead. The Ebon Blade differ in that they have the suffering addiction in-built, but the Forsaken don't.

I'd say her feelings are consistent with the soul would explaination Dansuer gave, until she makes her "deal" with the jailer, but the story has yet to rectify that that "deal" appears to be, "Do whatever I tell you or else I will torture you for eternity" not much of a deal. I still maintain no one has the strength of character to resist that situation.

[Super Dickmann]

I'd say her feelings are consistent with the soul would explaination Dansuer gave, until she makes her "deal" with the jailer, but the story has yet to rectify that that "deal" appears to be, "Do whatever I tell you or else I will torture you for eternity" not much of a deal. I still maintain no one has the strength of character to resist that situation.

Her feelings are also consistent with undeath as it's been depicted. The explanation regarding the misalignment of souls serves to explain her feelings just fine. While I agree that at the prospect of eternal torture anyone would fold, that has no bearing on soul splitting as a plot device as compared to undeath. The only thing that soul splitting allows that undeath does not is to absolve Sylvanas of responsibility with the implication that the character of fifteen years was not 'herself' as she did those actions. And even that's dubious, since as a cop-out undeath allows the same by having the same scenario except having the Jailer align her soul instead of put it back together.

[Hugnomo]

The Jailer's power isn't even "Death," its "Domination". I maintain the actual necromancy involved in undeath has nothing to do with the Maw or Jailer, its that they were the easiest thing to dominate.

For example, Alonsus Faol: He didn't die to plague. He died in his sleep, of old age. He was presumably raised by reckless necromantic forces & retained his free will.

I didn't say it was. But the scourge, lich king, valkyrs were all forces of the jailer or derived their power from the jailer. The fact that the scourge or forsaken at some point were mind controlled is because of domination magic.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I didn't say it was. But the scourge, lich king, valkyrs were all forces of the jailer or derived their power from the jailer. The fact that the scourge or forsaken at some point were mind controlled is because of domination magic.

There's also the fact that necromancy was also supposed to (The shadowlands powers) stay in the Shadowlands not be some horrible thing in the "mortal plain"

[Ersula]

I didn't say it was. But the scourge, lich king, valkyrs were all forces of the jailer or derived their power from the jailer. The fact that the scourge or forsaken at some point were mind controlled is because of domination magic.

I literally just gave you an example of a forsaken that was never dominated. Calia is another example.

[Hugnomo]

I literally just gave you an example of a forsaken that was never dominated. Calia is another example.

Well for one, Alonsus Faol was at one point dominated, according to wowpedia. And Calia is a completely different kind of being, raised by the Light and suffering no symptoms or burdens of a cursed state. The fact is the forsaken as a race comprise a people who were under the influence of domination magic, it's the core of their identity (at least one of the most significant factors). I'm not making an argument that Calia should be included. There's no evidence that there's something to "heal" in regards to her.