Should the horde be made to pay for the crimes of their leaders?

[Lorgar Aurelian]

2. Alliance starting Cata conflict? Fucking please! Warmong Garrosh went 180° then moment he landed on Northrend and quickly started making aggressive moves during Cata, cuz "Horde deserves these lands" and whatnot. Oh, and ofc Theramore. But hey "valuable strategic target" amirite?.

This really isn’t a thing. While garrosh wanted to attack in the tundra not only did he not he also sent alliance troops back to there keep, at the same time the alliance was actively attacking the horde in the fjord.

As far as cata goes garrosh does nothing to start the conflict varian declared war on thrall and attacked the barrens and mulgor before the shattering at which point garrosh had done nothing to the alliance as he was dealing with abunch of internal horde conflicts.

The idea that the horde started the cata conflict just doesn’t have any legs to stand on at every turn it was the alliance.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

you are exagerating yes, it was war and slaughter and thats it, yes they were mindonctroled it is stated that they were driven by demonic bloodlust and not could stop, they had to kill, and they were even starting to kill each other because nothing left to kill, the point they went to azeroth, there is no free-wll on that, check your sources.

The only time hey had free-will was when in azeroth the curse began to diminish and Orgrin start to fight for then to create a new home here.



im saying the orcs are dead, the orcs that partake in the draenei war, first and second war in azeroth are almost all dead, most of the orcs alive today that are part of the horde were not part of it and were born in azeroth or in the camps

they can't be absolved because they have nothing to be blamed on.

- - - Updated - - -



You and him just can't hide the bias and keep using fallacies in those threads, and no, my comments are not nearly compared to you creating a night elf topic every day to demand punishment for the horde.

No they weren't mind-controlled, the demon blood enhanced their bloodlust and savagery but it didn't deprive them of their ability to make decisions and they certainely didn't need to be mind-controlled or even demon blood to decide to exterminate the Draenei.

And not all members of the Old Horde are dead and they got away lightly for the atrocities they commited, which they can certainely and rightfully blamed for as Saurfang himself said.

[Powerogue]

For narrative purposes the leaders are our proxies to the races themselves, usually being highly regarded by them and we see them follow.

For the most part the ones who followed their leaders to full tier villainy we did make pay for the crimes of their leaders, they were the raid trash in Garrosh's raid and the loyalists guarding Baine and Derek Proudmoore. The ones in chains by the end of the Fourth War.

As for many of the rest, part of the point of the armistice is constantly pursuing retribution is what made this warring go on so long. Even though it's not equal, moving on means stopping that cycle.

Unless of course, we don't kill Sylvanas, in which case Thrall's word that "The Horde has changed" will prove nothing but vapid empty promises and violent retribution would be entirely justified.

Sure we won't go there though.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

Anyway after the bitter experience that was BFA, the just as bitter one that is Shadowlands, and how poorly written and overused the faction wars have been, the complete lack of true resolutions after, with the Horde always getting little karma compared to what they are guilty of after each war, I really dread another faction conflict unless the writing team is changed and replaced by true competent writers who know their lore this time and write it well instead of giving us another garbage.

[AcidicSyn]

I think you mean the in game NPCs support it, not like they have a choice now do they.

The actual players ..I think you'll find that to be a very different set of results. (And yes you'll get the horde die hard idiots who think the Horde is evil, but they are hardly the majority here)

I had no issues with attacking Teldrassil and trying to take all of mainland Kalimdor for the Horde. Killing Night Elf soldiers never bugged me. Storming the tree, capturing Darnassus, Killing both Malfurion and Tyrande, conquering enemy territory, none of this bugged me.

I drew the line at toasting civilians, I told my npc buddy to knock it off as we made our way through Ashenvale.

Am I, and those like me, "horde die hard idiots"?

[sighy]

I mean, its easy to be good when your counterpart is all for genocide and world domination through extermination.

This just brings us back to the narrative cancer that is Anduin. Can't have him do wrong, which automatically eliminates Aliance from proactivity and you can't have a story where nothing happens leaving the official inciting incident on the Horde, but you need to give the Horde a reason to do it, which isn't genuine grievances against the perfect boy's flawlessness so hail satan it is. (genocide arguments are both cringe and objectively wrong according to it's international law definition. It's actually just murder on a massive scale... not any better in most ways.)

In BfA the Horde fanbase was rather split on the matter. I can tell you that Blizz probably didn't expect the sheer vitriol Sadfang would get, even the people that disliked Sylvanas usually hated him.

[Syegfryed]

No they weren't mind-controlled, the demon blood enhanced their bloodlust and savagery but it didn't deprive them of their ability to make decisions

it literally deprive then of their ability to make decisions, are you even reading what you saying? inducing someone into a demonic bloodlust that can't be satisfied until they kill someone? they had no goodamn control

Its the whole point of it, Saurfang said it they had no control over it, an when the curse was gone many veterans perished because they finaly were free to face what they did, heard the voices of the kids they slaughtered and all, obviously they had no choice, they were killing everyone and even themselves.

Again, no one saying they have no blame and can't answer for their crimes, but they already did.

and they certainely didn't need to be mind-controlled or even demon blood to decide to exterminate the Draenei.

they were, WoD is a different case all together.

And not all members of the Old Horde are dead and they got away lightly for the atrocities they commited, which they can certainely and rightfully blamed for as Saurfang himself said.

Most of the member of the old horde are dead, there is too few named npcs alive today that fought in those wars, a few i can recall on top of my head are eitrigg and Drek'thar, the old horde is by all means dead

And again, what is the "punishment" you think is deserved, if slavery, inhuman conditions and other worse things for then and their kids were not enough?

[The Stormbringer]

For narrative purposes the leaders are our proxies to the races themselves, usually being highly regarded by them and we see them follow.

For the most part the ones who followed their leaders to full tier villainy we did make pay for the crimes of their leaders, they were the raid trash in Garrosh's raid and the loyalists guarding Baine and Derek Proudmoore. The ones in chains by the end of the Fourth War.

As for many of the rest, part of the point of the armistice is constantly pursuing retribution is what made this warring go on so long. Even though it's not equal, moving on means stopping that cycle.

Unless of course, we don't kill Sylvanas, in which case Thrall's word that "The Horde has changed" will prove nothing but vapid empty promises and violent retribution would be entirely justified.

Sure we won't go there though.

Imagine if Blizzard actually surprises us, and after helping us stop the Jailer or whatever, Sylvanas is executed for her crimes. No farce of a trial on Pandaria, she's just straight up executed. That would be something.

- - - Updated - - -

they were, WoD is a different case all together.

In Rise of the Horde, the Orcs went to war with the Draenei before drinking demon blood, just because Ner'zhul was duped into thinking the Draenei were secretly plotting against them by Kil'jaeden. They willingly started a war of extermination without any mind control. Yes, part-way through the war they then drank the blood, before the Siege of Shattrath I believe, but at that point they'd already wiped out several Draenei towns and massacred tons of them.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

Imagine if Blizzard actually surprises us, and after helping us stop the Jailer or whatever, Sylvanas is executed for her crimes. No farce of a trial on Pandaria, she's just straight up executed. That would be something.

Her being forced to spend at least several centuries or millenias in a horrible place of Revendreth or another purgatory part of the Shadowlands until she has finally suffered and repented enough for her crimes would be a much better choice.

But given the direction in which WoW has been for so long and the golden treatment that Sylvanas has received the chances of either happening are very low.

[Daedius]

Right after the Night Elves compensate everyone for destroying Azeroth with the Eternity Well.

[Thage]

Simply put, much of the problems in the WoW lore can be directly attributed to horde leaders who have done horrible things. Should the horde be made to pay for those crimes in some way?

It's pretty commonplace for the winning side in a war to impose terms on the losers; that the Alliance has had the upper hand (so we're told) twice now since the Third War and both times agreed to an armistice with seemingly no terms put on the Horde except to trust in the honor system is extremely irregular.

Also, would you support a fifth Alliance / horde war (in game or in books) where the Alliance actually wins ground and has objective victories for once?

No. The current writers have amply demonstrated they lack the ability to write a compelling faction war. Their only frame of reference for it seems to be fighting over deep-water ports and ethnic cleansing as the go-to strategy to employ, and the way they write the wars makes Warhammer look complex and nuanced by comparison.

They need to stay far, far away from the faction war storyline until they learn how to write a war that doesn't just immediately go to "wipe out a major civilian settlement housing the lion's share of a species' noncombatant population" and take the teeth out of the reprisal by making it a pyrrhic victory.

[Feanoro]

Right after the Night Elves compensate everyone for destroying Azeroth with the Eternity Well.

That bill gets delivered to the Highborne descendants in Silvermoon.

[Kithelle]

Simply put, much of the problems in the WoW lore can be directly attributed to horde leaders who have done horrible things. Should the horde be made to pay for those crimes in some way?

Also, would you support a fifth Alliance / horde war (in game or in books) where the Alliance actually wins ground and has objective victories for once?

Should the Horde pay, especially after they willingly followed Sylvanas in BFA? Probably
Should Sylvanas be punished? Definitely

[Syegfryed]

In Rise of the Horde, the Orcs went to war with the Draenei before drinking demon blood, just because Ner'zhul was duped into thinking the Draenei were secretly plotting against them by Kil'jaeden. They willingly started a war of extermination without any mind control. Yes, part-way through the war they then drank the blood, before the Siege of Shattrath I believe, but at that point they'd already wiped out several Draenei towns and massacred tons of them.

They were already being deceived by the deceiver. If the "gods" you worship say you have to face the enemies that came from the sky, you, a race of people that live in huts, don't have much critical thinking about it. The point is the war before was not a "wa of atrocitices that people are claiming.

Let alone how kil'jaden was a eredar and was following the draeneis from world to world, where they, could have simple alerted the races of the upcoming doom. but that "crime" no one talk about.

[Feanoro]

that "crime" no one talk about.

No one but you and every other Horde apologist. Always convenient how you forget the Genedar crash landed, or how the orcs are poor ignorant primitives only when it suits your sick draenei victim blaming narrative.

"BuT dAh oRcS wUz TrIcKeD!" No, THEY CHOSE. The propaganda Horde fans push is that they were peaceful shamanistic tribes. If so, then massacring the draenei should have been completely unnatural to them, something carried out with great reluctance and as efficiently and humanely as possible.

That's not what happened.

They went full into being bloodthirsty, vicious monsters before the demon blood was even administered. They raped draenei women, laughed as the hacked apart children slowly, tortured draenei souls for warlock powers, and enjoyed every second of the slaughter. THEY CHOSE all of that before the excuse of demon blood was even an option, and all the demon blood did was heighten their aggression. It didn't force them to do a damn thing.

That's canon, tough shit that you don't like it.

[Resheph]

Simply put, much of the problems in the WoW lore can be directly attributed to horde leaders who have done horrible things. Should the horde be made to pay for those crimes in some way?

Also, would you support a fifth Alliance / horde war (in game or in books) where the Alliance actually wins ground and has objective victories for once?

Well, obviously Varian Wrynn should not have been stopped after Wrathgate. Those filthy animals should have been eradicated when they were beaten, that would have saved so many lives.
It's not just the horde leaders, the horde was always there to support them. And look at these forums, there's scores of players ok with genocide because they are thirsty for some degenerate cringy teenage fantasy. If you actually give any attention to the lore you must be sickened if you are a half decent human being. Luckily it's just a video game, and none of it matters.

[Jastall]

The problem isn't that "they're the good guys" It'S that they're made out to be the infallible protagonists, IN HORDE'S SIDE OF THE STORY. With the results always being heavily biased with fakeouts, unless it's the prepatch shockvalue twistTM.

It's not hard for the Alliance to be the good guys when the parts of the Horde that want the war are fairly consistently shown to be blood-hungry barbarians at best and genocidal mad scientist undead at worst. Even without Saint Anduin at the helm, the likes of Varian or Tyrande at their angriest and most aggressive are boy scouts compared to the worst of the Horde.

[Powerogue]

Imagine if Blizzard actually surprises us, and after helping us stop the Jailer or whatever, Sylvanas is executed for her crimes. No farce of a trial on Pandaria, she's just straight up executed. That would be something.

Honestly I'd pay for a War Crimes book where the trial happens but she doesn't conveniently get away like Garrosh. Just:

Tyrande: Guilty.
Voss: Guilty.
Ghosts of Thomas Zelling and Saurfang: Guilty.
Ghost of Vellcinda "Elsie" Benton: Guilty.
Koltira Deathweaver: Guilty.
Ghost of Garithos: I told you fools never to trust an elf! GUILTY!
Genn Greymane: Guilty.
Anduin: Guilty.
Calia Menethil: Guilty.
Baine: Hmmmm....
*Everyone glares at Baine*
Guilty.

And she gets executed, The End.


(edit: It really says something how many times I had to edit this one because I remembered some other relatively innocent character Sylvanas wronged)

[Ardenaso]

the top brass of the Horde who helped do Sylvanas' wishes gets punished too like Belmont, Lorash, etc. and the Alliance too like the Void Elves, Dark Iron Dwarves, and those Dwarves who did Stonespire, and of course the Silver Covenant too

also sanction Turalyon for the Tyr's Hand peasant massacre while we're at it

[NatePsy]

Simply put, much of the problems in the WoW lore can be directly attributed to horde leaders who have done horrible things. Should the horde be made to pay for those crimes in some way?

If that's the case, should the Alliance be made to pay the Undead for Lordaeron and Arthas? Don't even get me started on the Elves either.