"World of Warcraft: Exploring Azeroth - Kalimdor" Lore and Updates [Spoilers]

[Syegfryed]

I didn't say shaman's had no aren't educated just that there education doesn't take the same form as mages, for some one who's so big on the horde one would think you'd actually know something about them but I guess not.

i never said the same, i said akin, shamans would at least know how to read and write, and they can taught to their disciples, because thats the basic.

unless, you reinforce the point that the horde is a bunch of savages who need to be aught by elves, and thats is what the book shows.

There is never any indication on rather Zuni could read or not or rather he was taught to read in his training on the isle,

he received the same quests as we do, on journal, he start as an adventure like us, and we know how to read, no indication it is different

if the problem is who taught him how to read and not rather him being unable to read fits the setting or not then ima file it under none issue.

both are problems.

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Nope.
If we bury all orgrimmar then we are not destroying it. We are only fertilizing the land.

ah yes, can't take a horde camp, they will totally bury orgrimmar,

and see what the false equivalence of elves, cutting trees to use = destroying; killing the people and burying = good fertilizing, and you wonder why no on take elf fans serious.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

i never said the same, i said akin, shamans would at least know how to read and write, and they can taught to their disciples, because thats the basic.

unless, you reinforce the point that the horde is a bunch of savages who need to be aught by elves, and thats is what the book shows.

there not akin to each other at in terms of education structure and shamanism has almost nothing to do with written word's so there's no reason to think shaman teachers would go out of there way to teach it to there disciples unless they were actually going for higher advisory roles which we know Zekhan didn't.

he received the same quests as we do, on journal, he start as an adventure like us, and we know how to read, no indication it is different

he only show's up on 4 of 12 or so quest and not one of those quest involve reading/rwriting.

[geco]

and see what the false equivalence of elves, cutting trees to use = destroying; killing the people and burying = good fertilizing, and you wonder why no on take elf fans serious.

I am literally using your logic.

My logic is "Each one does not touch the other's and everyone is happy." But you don't like that logic.

[Syegfryed]

there not akin to each other at in terms of education structure and shamanism has almost nothing to do with written word's so there's no reason to think shaman teachers would go out of there way to teach it to there disciples unless they were actually going for higher advisory roles which we know Zekhan didn't.

shamans are one of the highest ranks in hierarchy among tauren, trolls and orcs tribes, they aren't lowly shopkeepers or vendors, they are elite because of their connection to the nature, the tribes/clans would make sure to give then the best, including, minimum knowledge of the basics in recent times that need the ability to read. Unless, of course, if you reincforce even more that reading is not necessary for the horde, as, they are a bunch of savages, save some exception

As you go with your shaman training there is not just spoken training, there is scribings, runes, totens, language is very necessary

he only show's up on 4 of 12 or so quest and not one of those quest involve reading/rwriting.

there is as you receive you orders in paper.

[Feanoro]

Nope.
If we bury all orgrimmar then we are not destroying it. We are only fertilizing the land.

You're talking to someone who's serious when saying "Garrosh did nothing wrong" and insists the orcs CANNOT be wrong. You decide if it's worth your time.

Note too the hatred he has for real world people just because they like elves in fiction.

[Syegfryed]

I am literally using your logic.

no, cutting trees is not the same as killing people

My logic is "Each one does not touch the other's and everyone is happy." But you don't like that logic.

funny thing your logic is not night elf logic, as they did not make clear it was their thing, and no one could touch, and they, deliberate touched the orcs by taking their lives.

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You're talking to someone who's serious when saying "Garrosh did nothing wrong" and insists the orcs CANNOT be wrong. You decide if it's worth your time.

you can't have one post without complaining about "horde bias", horde "fans" and all this blablabla can't you.

Orcs can be in the wrong, the ashenvale situation that started in wc3 however, they are not, you liking or not.

[florclorbromiod]

Wtf i write to you there is the home of Cenarius, they not push him and his children out.

Cenarius existed long before the Night Elves.

Chronicles is clear about the fact that the Night Elf Imperialists pushed other races out of their lands and took them.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

shamans are one of the highest ranks in hierarchy among tauren, trolls and orcs tribes, they aren't lowly shopkeepers or vendors, they are elite because of their connection to the nature, the tribes/clans would make sure to give then the best, including, minimum knowledge of the basics in recent times that need the ability to read. Unless, of course, if you reincforce even more that reading is not necessary for the horde, as, they are a bunch of savages, save some exception

As you go with your shaman training there is not just spoken training, there is scribings, runes, totens, language is very necessary

Shaman's don't hold the same roll in troll's orcs and Tauren society, while orcs and Tauren might have shaman's ranked highly troll's favor which doctors and shadow hunters over just basic shaman's and Zekhan is neither of those and every single troll tribe has been shown to have shamans used as low ranking members.

and as we can see from the quest there isn't alot reading or writing involved in totems runes ect. while there are without doudt shaman's who are more involved in these things the player shaman who is a step above a footman isn't so there's no reason to think a lower ranking shaman would.

https://classic.wowhead.com/quest=1524/call-of-fire
https://classic.wowhead.com/quest=1528/call-of-water
https://classic.wowhead.com/quest=1532/call-of-air

there is as you receive you orders in paper.

not one of the troll starting quest gives you orders on paper they are all verbal.

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/The..._the_Darkspear

[geco]

You're talking to someone who's serious when saying "Garrosh did nothing wrong" and insists the orcs CANNOT be wrong. You decide if it's worth your time.

Note too the hatred he has for real world people just because they like elves in fiction.

I enjoy talking to a certain Kind of trolls. But when they start saying absurd things. As the order of time is reversed XD

[Syegfryed]

Shaman's don't hold the same roll in troll's orcs and Tauren society, while orcs and Tauren might have shaman's ranked highly troll's favor which doctors and shadow hunters over just basic shaman's and Zekhan is neither of those and every single troll tribe has been shown to have shamans used as low ranking members.

in wow which doctors are the shamans, so yeah, they would be ranked high

and as we can see from the quest there isn't alot reading or writing involved in totems runes ect. while there are without doudt shaman's who are more involved in these things the player shaman who is a step above a footman isn't so there's no reason to think a lower ranking shaman would.

https://classic.wowhead.com/quest=1524/call-of-fire
https://classic.wowhead.com/quest=1528/call-of-water
https://classic.wowhead.com/quest=1532/call-of-air


not one of the troll starting quest gives you orders on paper they are all verbal.

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/The..._the_Darkspear

then we are going with the assumption only the player, who, is also an orphan, can read and write, but not the others, only we have tht kind of teaching, only we that have the journal and the others things, unlike other recruits and the teachers who are iliterate.

i wonder, how long for you to see that this only reinforce the stereotype of the horde people being illiterate savages, and need a blood elf to teach then their own language, cause youa re only making it more bltantly obvious the issue presented.

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I enjoy talking to a certain Kind of trolls. But when they start saying absurd things. As the order of time is reversed XD

the only absurd things being said here came from you, including not knowing the meaning of the word destroy.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

in wow which doctors are the shamans, so yeah, they would be ranked high

while in some cases they might be they aren't always the same, its a square and rectangle situation.

unless of course you think the horde is made of a bunch of savages and Zehkan doesn't know that he's actually a which doctor/shadow hunter as he calls him self a shaman and never the other two unlike say vol'jin.

hen we are going with the assumption only the player, who, is also an orphan, can read and write, but not the others, only us ahve the journal and the others, incluindg the teachers, iliterate.

i wonder, how long for you to see that this only reinforce the stereotype of the horde people being illiterate savages, and need a blood elf to teach then their own language, cause youa re only making it more bltantly obvious the issue presented.

There is no indication any where in game that the player is a orphan and the only thing becoming blatantly obvious is that you don't actually know any thing about shamans or trolls or the horde or any thing else and your just going from one made up point to the other without actually reading any of the quest to see if any thing you say is backed up by the game or lore.

[Syegfryed]

while in some cases they might be they aren't always the same, its a square and rectangle situation.

until which doctor becomes a class on their own, their are canonically made of priests and shamans, more as shamans mixing their things with voodo

unless of course you think the horde is made of a bunch of savages and Zehkan doesn't know that he's actually a which doctor/shadow hunter as he calls him self a shaman and never the other two unlike say vol'jin.

Maybe we need blood elf to teach then about troll customs too, since they are helping the trolls to learn read and write troll language.

There is no indication any where in game that the player is a orphan

where is our family then?

and the only thing becoming blatantly obvious is that you don't actually know any thing about shamans or trolls or the horde or any thing else and your just going from one made up point to the other without actually reading any of the quest to see if any thing you say is backed up by the game or lore.

yeah ma dude, shamans, trolls and horde, don't need to read, therefore, don't need tot teach their own people, if necessary we bring an elf to teach then.

That is the crux of the problem, even if they aren't iliterate savages, the book implies so by making then elarn from a more "illuminated race", thats why is heavily criticized, reinforcing the bad stereotypes, only you that is ignoring that.

...and in fact, Troll and orcish IS taught to the youngers:

Zandali is taught to the young of the Darkspear tribe, with Orcish being taught in addition. Although described as a guttural language, Zandali always has a melodious flow to it

So there is some sort of basic education that at least teach the young the basics, backed up by game and lore, and the books simples fuck things up.

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Zandali

(unless of course you wanna say they only teach then how to talk and thats it, cause they don't know themselves, reinforcing even more the bad stereotype that we are criticzing.)

[Mic_128]

and they were enemies doing that only for money?

Which was only mentioned once or twice to explain their presence, while their love for engineering was all over multiple zones and raids.

destroying

present participle of destroy
destroy
verb [ T ]
UK /dɪˈstrɔɪ/ US /dɪˈstrɔɪ/

to damage something so badly that it cannot be used

to damage something, esp. in a violent way, so that it can no longer be used or no longer exists

If they are cutting trees to be USED, then its not destroying. the only one incoherent here is you

But the trees are being destroyed. They aren't able to be used to feed/house animals or transfer CO2 to oxygen. It's the *wood* that is being used once cut, not the tree.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

until which doctor becomes a class on their own, their are canonically made of priests and shamans, more as shamans mixing their things with voodo

There are which doctor's and shadow hunters in game as well as shaman's just because they aren't a playable class doesn't mean there isn't distinctions between the three shown in game or that they are interchangeable.

where is our family then?

that's for each individual player to decide as there is no cannon statement of the make up of PC's or there familys.

...and in fact, Troll and orcish IS taught to the youngers:


So there is some sort of basic education that at least teach the young the basics, backed up by game and lore, and the books simples fuck things up.

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Zandali

you should really read the pages before you link them and quote the whole thing.

Zandali, also known as Troll[1][2] or Zandalari,[3][4] is the native language of the trolls. Trolls of all types speak Zandali. Like many languages, Zandali has many accents divided by regions. The Stranglethorn Vale accent is distinct enough that trolls can recognize it with only one word.[5] Zandali is taught to the young of the Darkspear tribe, with Orcish being taught in addition. Although described as a guttural language,[6] Zandali always has a melodious flow to it.[7]

No where does it say they are taught to read/write it only mentions being taught to speak it and how it is guttural and has a Melodious flow both of which you wouldn't put down for a written word.

(unless of course you wanna say they only teach then how to talk and thats it, cause they don't know themselves, reinforcing even more the bad stereotype that we are criticzing.)

Learning how to talk and learning how to read/write is not the same thing every troll would pick up how to talk unless they were own there own and feral while being taught how to read/write is something you need to set time aside to do.

Maybe we need blood elf to teach then about troll customs too, since they are helping the trolls to learn read and write troll language.

and yes I fully believe you need a blood elf to teach you about troll customs as you don't seem to know much about them.

[Syegfryed]

Which was only mentioned once or twice to explain their presence, while their love for engineering was all over multiple zones and raids.

you mean their love for money yes.

But the trees are being destroyed. They aren't able to be used to feed/house animals or transfer CO2 to oxygen. It's the *wood* that is being used once cut, not the tree.

sadly, that is not how it works, if it has a use is not destroying, sorry.

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There are which doctor's and shadow hunters in game as well as shaman's just because they aren't a playable class doesn't mean there isn't distinctions between the three shown in game or that they are interchangeable.

and shamans who also use voodoo are considered Witch doctor, Witch doctor is not a class of their own but a mix of practices and forces the trolls use.

thats why a shamans can be a witch doctor, using their curses and hexes,a s well their wards/totens,r but not every witch doctor is a shaman.

that's for each individual player to decide as there is no cannon statement of the make up of PC's or there familys.

Exactly, they need to make a ground that everything work

therefore, your background can be either of an orphan or someone with a family, and in both ways, you still know how to read and write, being an orphan is not an excuse

you should really read the pages before you link them and quote the whole thing.

giving an example of how the language sound, does not mean they only taught how to speak, that is entirely your fallacy and headcanon of it.

is like saying someone who is being taught a marital art, and comments of how effective the punches are, you immediately jump to conclusions and assume the martial art only have punches.

No where does it say they are taught to read/write it only mentions being taught to speak

it is said that zandali and orcish is taught to the younger, period. nowhere is said or mentioned they only taught how to speak, this is entirely your headcanon.

Learning how to talk and learning how to read/write is not the same thing every troll would pick up how to talk unless they were own there own and feral while being taught how to read/write is something you need to set time aside to do.

If they can pick up on their own there is no necessity for then to be taught

and yes I fully believe you need a blood elf to teach you about troll customs as you don't seem to know much about them.

seems like i know more about you still, so thats not that bad.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

and shamans who also use voodoo are considered Witch doctor.

but not every witch doctor is a shaman.

Exactly not all rectangles are squares just like I said.

Exactly, they need to make a ground that everything work

therefore, your background can be either of an orphan or someone with a family, and in both ways, you still know how to read and write, being an orphan is not an excuse

That's not how it works the players being able to freely say there back story is what ever they want means nothing to actual cannon lore, if it did then female draenei would have far to much in common with horses given the fan art players make.

giving an example of how the language sound, does not mean they only taught how to speak, that is entirely your fallacy and headcanon of it.

is like saying someone who is being taught a marital art, and comments of how effective the punches are, you immediately jump to conclusions and assume the martial art only have punches.

Sure it doesn't mean they only teach how to speak it I agree.

it is said that zandali and orcish is taught to the younger, period. nowhere is said or mentioned they only taught how to speak, this is entirely your headcanon.

that's not how head cannon works. your asserting that they are taught how to read and write at a young age but your own link doesn't back that up as it doesn't mention the written form at all.

you are making up a head cannon that them being taught to speak it also means they are taught to read and write it, I'm pointing out that your source doesn't say that leaving it up in the air rather they are taught how to read/write at a young age or not. the two aren't the same.

If they can pick up on their own there is no necessity for then to be taught

ya no kids are often actively taught to speak even if they would pick it up on there own. https://www.healthline.com/health/ho...oddler-to-talk

seems like i know more about you still, so thats not that bad.

yet you thought they used written orders on the echo isle, they didn't. you thought reading and writing was apart of the shaman quest, they weren't. you argued that troll shamans were all which doctors and then immediately turned around on it when I pointed out the game doesn't use them interchangeable.

[Syegfryed]

Exactly not all rectangles are squares just like I said.

and just like i said, shamans will have a higher ranker, like most spellcasters among the trolls and the horde as a whole.

That's not how it works the players being able to freely say there back story is what ever they want means nothing to actual cannon lore, if it did then female draenei would have far to much in common with horses given the fan art players make.

there is nothing implying the player received different education than the rest of the recruiters and aspirants, what makes us different is how we can reach higher levels, unlike then.

if they are, again, just reinforce the bad stereotypes that are being criticized

that's not how head cannon works. your asserting that they are taught how to read and write at a young age but your own link doesn't back that up as it doesn't mention the written form at all.

there is no necessity to be spelled out that they were taught to speak, read and write, this is perfectionist fallacy

when they teach the language to the YOUNG(not todler, like you implied here), it inherently they are teaching the whole package, is how things are, unless stated otherwise.

yet you fought they used written orders on the echo isle, they didn't. you fought reading and writing was apart of the shaman quest, they weren't. you argued that which doctors were all shaman/priest and then immediately turned around on it when I pointed out the game doesn't use them interchangeable.

there is written order as you put then in your journal, Zuni, the player and other aspirants work in the same way. There is shamans quests that require reading, and require shamans to read written orders like for mission tables. Witch doctors canonically are either shamans or priests by not having their class something on their own. And yes, shamans, by also being witch doctors, have higher rankers among the "plebe" you tried to make that trolls only care about witch doctors and shadow hunters.

either way, you are just arguing for the sake of arguing, as you only proves the point that the book reinforce the bad stereotypes, making reading and writing something only a selective group of people would know and they have to be taught from elves, funny how you are so focused on arguing with me that you can't see that.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

and just like i said, shamans will have a higher ranker, like most spellcasters among the trolls and the horde as a whole.

that’s not backed up by the lore as far as trolls go and is openly disputed by how many low ranking shamans are every where troll related.

there is nothing implying the player received different education than the rest of the recruiters and aspirants, what makes us different is how we can reach higher levels, unlike then.

there is nothing implying any thing before character creation that doesn’t mean what ever you decide for your character is canon to the world or that npc’s are on the same starting level as PC’s beyond being in the same zone at the same time.

when they teach the language to the YOUNG(not todler, like you implied here), it inherently they are teaching the whole package, is how things are, unless stated otherwise.

this is all head canon and not backed up by any thing not even your own source.

there is written order as you put then in your journal, Zuni, the player and other aspirants work in the same way.

head canon no one is ever shown or even implied to be carrying around physical journals and writing every thing down. When ever note and journals are featured in the game they are a physical item not a game mechanic unless you want to say every one in wow also has a physical talent tree they carry around.

There is shamans quests that require reading, and require shamans to read written orders like for mission tables.

there likely is atleast one shaman quest that requires reading sure, that how ever doesn’t mean every shaman would go on that quest and any thing related to the mission table is more head canon and we have no way of knowing how those play out.

Witch doctors canonically are either shamans or priests by not having their class something on their own. And yes, shamans, by also being witch doctors, have higher rankers among the "plebe" you tried to make that trolls only care about witch doctors and shadow hunters.

no which doctors and shadow hunters are there own thing while some shaman and priest may be one or the other that doesn’t mean all which doctors or shadow hunters are shaman/priest or that they are interchangeable as the game and lore doesn’t treat them that way.

either way, you are just arguing for the sake of arguing, as you only proves the point that the book reinforce the bad stereotypes, making reading and writing something only a selective group of people would know and they have to be taught from elves, funny how you are so focused on arguing with me that you can't see that.

90% of your post are head cannon not backed up by the lore in any way if one of us is looking to argue it isn’t me.

As to Stereotypes you may have noticed that I haven't really mentioned or commented on them, the only thing I care about is the actual lore how your bastardizing it with head canon and how the event of the book could or couldn’t fit it.

If I wanted to talk about racial stereotypes I’d go to off topic or politics not the lore forum.

[Loreth88]

Cenarius existed long before the Night Elves.

Chronicles is clear about the fact that the Night Elf Imperialists pushed other races out of their lands and took them.

I give up, but i can help u with ur future. Make a tattoo: imperialist and u never need to write it again, just show a picture with ur tattoo on it.

[Syegfryed]

that’s not backed up by the lore as far as trolls go and is openly disputed by how many low ranking shamans are every where troll related.

low ranking shamans?? Vanira together with zentabra are one of the most important figures of the darkspear, both a druid and a shaman.

and once again, shamans, priests and warlocks will be called witch doctors as well, until Blizzard fleshes then out they are not "their own class", just like "blademaster" aren't their own class.

Thinking a shaman, a being who can talk to spirits, make hexes and all the rest would be a low ranker in a troll tribe or the horde in general, that focus majorly on spiritism is completely obnoxious.

this is all head canon and not backed up by any thing not even your own source.

the headcanon here is that trolls do not get to learn how to red and write their own language, but we know for fact they don't learn just troll but orcish too when they are younger. the other headcanon you brought is that they only learn how to speak.

90% of your post are head cannon not backed up by the lore in any way if one of us is looking to argue it isn’t me.

100% of your post are assumptions and moving goalposts to deflect from the main point, thats why you are trying to discuss shadow hunters and witch doctors semantics here

Your entire base of "why zekhan is an illiterate moron who don't know what erosion is and had to be taught by a blood elf" is completely based around assumption and grasping at straws and you want to say shit about me.

As to Stereotypes you may have noticed that I haven't really mentioned or commented on them,

yes, because you are just arguing for the sake of argue, who would know.