"World of Warcraft: Exploring Azeroth - Kalimdor" Lore and Updates [Spoilers]

[geco]

no treaty mention they returning warsong camp, the treaty of mop and bfa only talk about the lands they took in cata and on bfa, thats it.

and the thing with ashenvale was never just about lumber, but food, ashenvale is a place for hunting and feed the horde, they just ignored that part entirelly and "yep wood"



Again, cause its seems like you are not reading what i said, the horde never left ashenvale totally, the warsong never left ashenvale, warsong lumber camp was always populated, and that is horde territory by law of conquest since warcraft 3,

the matter of discussion is other major bases that the horde took in cataclysm and Bfa, that, were already returned to the night elves or, they already took it by force, they are trying to take the entirity of ashenvale now by trying to kick the warsongs out, but they will not leave.

I already quoted it to you and you ignored it.

And if the Law is the law of "Conquest" then you agree to continue the war.
It's like saying "the theft law."

night elves are also attacking azshara and taking the horde posts

You see there was the opportunity to say that the Kaldorei do not want peace.
But since the Horde keeps invading ashenvale then no.

PD: It is more in the case that you were right. Then they must have defaced all the other Horde fortifications including one outside Ashenvale so they would be breaking the treaty anyway.

[Aucald]

These lore fumbles have been really frequent these last years, I really doubt that they really know the lore that much or have read the earlier novels.

That's true enough. I think they do themselves a disservice by not having a continuity editing crew, which they obviously don't seem to have. With a pool of narrative lore as broad and as old as Warcraft, you really need a body of continuity editors double-checking for the most obvious lore/story gaffes. This whole 1,000/10,000 and Dark Portal vs. Well of Eternity gaffe could've been quickly picked up by anyone well-versed in the game's lore (e.g. 75% of the people here). This whole topic puts me in mind of the old "Nerf Now" bit:

[Kralljin]

yeah, and they could, you know, simple focus a bit on the other side of the goblins too? focus on their tinkering and mechanics instead of 100% on their greediness and just that?

Considering there is also a plethora of quests in WoW where you're tasked by Goblins to help them make money via trade or inventions, i don't see the problem.
It unites both aspects, being an inventor and being greedy aren't mutually exclusive - far from it in fact.

they didn't had a huge role in wc3 yet, you could identify their traits beyond just dirty greediness.

As they are in WoW, most Goblins that aren't hostile to you are usually portrayed as inventors or traders, which then hire you to gather some materials, which they then either sell or use in their inventions, which they plan to sell off.

That has no negative connotations to it.

if that leads to the racial stereotypes, is a consequence of it.

The point however is in the context of this discussion is that this is not a jewish sterotype - at least i haven't read a conspiracy that jews in fact rely on some rocks for their intelligence.

This whole topic puts me in mind of the old "Nerf Now" bit:

I could see that one fly if the guy who that wrote doesn't have "Historian" in his job title.
By that, i would assume that he more fits into the left image, because a Historians job is to, among other things, curate history, not make up new history.

[DatToffer]

If you look at his historic, he was pretty much a good guy, many times he risked his profit to help the horde and choose to help horde only in many situations, like coming back at WoD.

BfA made huge improvement of him that still wanting profit he found some kinship and honor among the horde, his quests were in fact, a few that didn't suck in that dammed expansion, people liked him and his interactions, That was a pretty good change for the goblins, to make then more sensible or more "touching", so people would actually want to play then with him as ideal.

Now they made sure to ruin it in the book.

I agree he had some notions of honor. But he always acted in a very goblin cunning way and with his interest in mind.

It's only in BFA we saw him being extra compliant with his employees and a straight by the rule man. It was pretty blatant he was only written that way to be an anti Gallywix. And now they are trying to give him some more assertiveness and it seems weird somehow.

And I mean he's not the only character who was used as a narrative tool to the detriment of their own development. Sylvanas and Tyrande went through the same kind of thing. Jaina too I'd say.

[Sondrelk]

Considering there is also a plethora of quests in WoW where you're tasked by Goblins to help them make money via trade or inventions, i don't see the problem.

As they are in WoW, most Goblins that aren't hostile to you are usually portrayed as inventors or traders, which then hire you to gather some materials, which they then either sell or use in their inventions, which they plan to sell off.

That has no negative connotations to it.

The point however is in the context of this discussion is that this is not a jewish sterotype - at least i haven't read a conspiracy that jews in fact rely on some rocks for their intelligence.

Goblins is fairly blatantly based on old Jewish stereotypes, with big noses, short, and greedy.
Just because Goblins have gained its own life as a stock fantasy race doesn't really excuse them going back to the old tropes for no good reason.

[geco]

Goblins is fairly blatantly based on old Jewish stereotypes, with big noses, short, and greedy.
Just because Goblins have gained its own life as a stock fantasy race doesn't really excuse them going back to the old tropes for no good reason.

I look at my Jewish friends. That they are all tall, massive and that they like to invite people.
(I don't know if it counts as big noses or not because we are Argentines.)

I think at this point continuing to defend the stereotype is more racist than the stereotype itself.

[Syegfryed]

I already quoted it to you and you ignored it.

you are literally ignoring that the horde never left the warsong camp, and that was not part of the any deal in mop or bfa since that was not something they took from those incursions, it is neither valid since the night elves also, never stop attacking azshra.

And if the Law is the law of "Conquest" then you agree to continue the war.
It's like saying "the theft law."

the horde conquered the piece of land after the night elves unprovoked, start killing the orcs there, they were in the right, if the night elves still want to take it back, that is their part wanting war, once again being the aggressors

[Aucald]

I could see that one fly if the guy who that wrote doesn't have "Historian" in his job title.
By that, i would assume that he more fits into the left image, because a Historians job is to, among other things, curate history, not make up new history.

I think the idea is more that "Historians" rarely exist in game development, and game story and lore are often devised off the cuff and ad hoc, with a developer making shit up that sounds believable and/or cool and rationalizing (or retconning) it later as the need arises. The player base tends to be a lot more passionate, and as a result a good deal more well-learned, on a given game's lore than the game's creators.

[Orby]

I look at my Jewish friends. That they are all tall, massive and that they like to invite people.
(I don't know if it counts as big noses or not because we are Argentines.)

I think at this point continuing to defend the stereotype is more racist than the stereotype itself.

Its not what you see its how a lot of people perceived Jewish people and how they were ridiculed. You could say, I don't see that in my Jewish friend, then good, but it was a thing for a while for what alot of people would look at Jewish people and feel and caricature them as. Its a long history lesson for me to go into. I am not super educated on the subject outside of some examples.

[Sondrelk]

I look at my Jewish friends. That they are all tall, massive and that they like to invite people.
(I don't know if it counts as big noses or not because we are Argentines.)

I think at this point continuing to defend the stereotype is more racist than the stereotype itself.

Stereotypes are only based on the vaguest truth, that still doesn't mean they are less damaging.

Point is that if you look at old antisemitic propaganda you see the kind of hunched over figure that became the fantasy goblin.

And no, very few are going to look at more varied depictions of goblins and immediately think racist stereotype, but one might if you are aware of the history and see less veiled references like for instance the untrustworthy and greedy banking goblins in Harry Potter.

[Syegfryed]

Considering there is also a plethora of quests in WoW where you're tasked by Goblins to help them make money via trade or inventions, i don't see the problem.
It unites both aspects, being an inventor and being greedy aren't mutually exclusive - far from it in fact.

a pletora of quests, that nobody cares it seems, since their main thing, like you said, is being greedy guys, and thats it.

that is their ideal in wow.

As they are in WoW, most Goblins that aren't hostile to you are usually portrayed as inventors or traders, which then hire you to gather some materials, which they then either sell or use in their inventions, which they plan to sell off.

That has no negative connotations to it.

most of the goblins are full of negative connotations, while fucking something up, like the environment, exploding something, or just wanting profit.

Thing is, it will not hurt to step aside from this greedy stereotype, and focus more on doing other things, one race cannot be entirely based on one big bad stereotype. BfA did improvement that a bit with gazlowe, but again, they made him Gallywix 2.0

[Kralljin]

Goblins is fairly blatantly based on old Jewish stereotypes, with big noses, short, and greedy.
Just because Goblins have gained its own life as a stock fantasy race doesn't really excuse them going back to the old tropes for no good reason.

Enviromental pollution is far from an old trope and frankly, is part of Goblin society, they aren't a race that attuned to nature and have shown little care about it.
This part of goblin culture has been part of WoW since its inception.

People act as if this is some groundbreaking relevation, even in BfA, we had Goblins strip mining freaking Azerite - the fucking lifeblood of Azeroth.
Seriously, you'd expect that race who mines the lifeblood of the planet itself to weaponize it, would hold back on their production because it pollutes water supplies?

I think the idea is more that "Historians" rarely exist in game development

Yes, but in this instance, they do.

And that book was written by the person with that job title.

[geco]

never stop attacking azshra.

Yes at the end of Pandaria.

the horde conquered the piece of land after the night elves unprovoked, start killing the orcs there, they were in the right, if the night elves still want to take it back, that is their part wanting war, once again being the aggressors

So the Orcs went and took a territory and started destroying it and that is considered "not probooting the original owners".

So the Kaldorei are not testing the Horde at this time either.

Its not what you see its how a lot of people perceived Jewish people and how they were ridiculed. You could say, I don't see that in my Jewish friend, then good, but it was a thing for a while for what alot of people would look at Jewish people and feel and caricature them as. Its a long history lesson for me to go into. I am not super educated on the subject outside of some examples.

Stereotypes are only based on the vaguest truth, that still doesn't mean they are less damaging.

Point is that if you look at old antisemitic propaganda you see the kind of hunched over figure that became the fantasy goblin.

And no, very few are going to look at more varied depictions of goblins and immediately think racist stereotype, but one might if you are aware of the history and see less veiled references like for instance the untrustworthy and greedy banking goblins in Harry Potter.

So they are stereotypes that no longer make sense and are not even valid in many countries.

I mean, for me it is more racist to continue relating Jews with these stereotypes than the stereotypes themselves.

[Aucald]

Yes, but in this instance, they do.

And that book was written by the person with that job title.

Well, then they're bad at their job.

[Sondrelk]

Enviromental pollution is far from an old trope and frankly, is part of Goblin society, they aren't a race that attuned to nature and have shown little care about it.
This part of goblin culture has been part of WoW since its inception.

People act as if this is some groundbreaking relevation, even in BfA, we had Goblins strip mining freaking Azerite - the fucking lifeblood of Azeroth.
Seriously, you'd expect that race who mines the lifeblood of the planet itself to weaponize it, would hold back on their production because it pollutes water supplies?

Yes, but in this instance, they do.

And that book was written by the person with that job title.

The wandering Jew that blights the lands and poisons the wells is a very old stereotype actually.
It's very much deprecated and almost forgotten, but it's hardly a new invention.

[Orby]

Yes at the end of Pandaria.


So they are stereotypes that no longer make sense and are not even valid in many countries.

I mean, for me it is more racist to continue relating Jews with these stereotypes than the stereotypes themselves.

They are stereotypes that are kind of still apparent in society, I have seen a lot of those video on conspiracy nuts who for some reason wanna blame Jews for stuff, its pretty mad.

I mean If I was uneducated on the problems that plagued a lot of Jews for a long period of time, I wouldn't find it offensive either. But just because we don't doesn't mean we shouldn't think how they feel. Should we keep it in because we don't find it offensive and fuck what the Jewish player base think. Personally some Jewish probably don't even care to be honest. But that still doesn't mean that it should be right.

[Mic_128]

yeah, and they could, you know, simple focus a bit on the other side of the goblins too? focus on their tinkering and mechanics instead of 100% on their greediness and just that?

Did you not play WoD? Pretty much everything mechanical there was devised by Goblin tinkers and mechanics.

[geco]

They are stereotypes that are kind of still apparent in society, I have seen a lot of those video on conspiracy nuts who for some reason wanna blame Jews for stuff, its pretty mad.

I mean If I was uneducated on the problems that plagued a lot of Jews for a long period of time, I wouldn't find it offensive either. But just because we don't doesn't mean we shouldn't think how they feel. Should we keep it in because we don't find it offensive and fuck what the Jewish player base think. Personally some Jewish probably don't even care to be honest. But that still doesn't mean that it should be right.

Ok so if it makes sense. Well, in my country we only have the stereotypes that they like silver and the religious clothes they have.

[Kralljin]

The wandering Jew that blights the lands and poisons the wells is a very old stereotype actually.
It's very much deprecated and almost forgotten, but it's hardly a new invention.

That doesn't change the fact that Goblins polluting the enviroment has been in WoW since day one and was viewed as a non issue, because, it's a video game and not a commentary on society.

[Sondrelk]

That doesn't change the fact that Goblins polluting the enviroment has been in WoW since day one and was viewed as a non issue, because, it's a video game and not a commentary on society.

The reason it became relevant in this case is actually because the book has a goblin that literally poisons a well, which could be entirely coincidental on the part of the writer, but is still hardly a good look for the writer.