Is it healthy to gate flying behind "pathfinders"?

[WowIsDead64]

In the end you will have the flight in Zereth Mortis thanks to the decryption system.

So, it's looks like flying is going to be added to 9.2 content. It's great news, because Blizzard are going to break that old silly made up "no flying in locations, that aren't connected to main map" restriction. So, they admit, that flying isn't something bad and content can be designed around having it. It also can be sign of long awaited "separate pathfinder for every content patch" system.

I want to remind you, that flying:
1) Important factor for casual/alt-friendliness of game. Not all players want ground content to be challenging. Not all players treat going from point A to point B as content. Not all players like treasure hunting. Etc. Some players want to simply do their daily objectives and that's it.
2) It's great motivation to do things, as flying mounts are great reward. Flying mounts are much more desirable, than ground ones.

But...

At the end. Is it healthy to gate flying behind "pathfinders"? For several xpacks in a row flying is held as hostage in order to force players to do 100% content. It causes bad behavior:
1) Players feel, that game is incomplete without flying
2) Players have to rush towards getting flying instead of just enjoying content
3) Players are forced to do content, they don't like
4) Players have to stay unsubbed not to spoil their experience in case of time-gating/catch-ups

So. If flying isn't that bad, Blizzard admit it and it's added at the end, then may be "pathfinders" aren't needed?

[Val the Moofia Boss]

The desire for flying is a symptom of another problem, one of Blizzard's own making:

Travelling along the ground isn't fun. Not after MoP.

Starting with WoD, Blizzard's environment designers forgot 10 years of zone design and began designing the layout of their zones to be as inconvenient to navigate on foot as possible. Worse, starting with WoD, the mob density was jacked up, so now you can't travel 10 feet without aggroing some mob. Also, you get dazed. So travelling on foot is now a tremendous pain in the ass. Worse, you are required to travel on foot because the game revolves around doing your world quest chores, and also doing your legendary questline/war campaign/covenant campaign. So you have to do A LOT of travelling on foot and it sucks.

Flying in WoW isn't fun. If you want an example of a flying mechanic that is fun, look no further than GW2's implementation. No, flying in WoW is tolerable, and preferable to the aggravating experience that is travelling on the ground.

[WowIsDead64]

Just to clarify. When I say "unhealthy" - I mean, that forcing players to do content doesn't seem to be healthy way to keep players playing as long as possible. Flying is used as hostage to force players to do 100% content, no matter if they like it or not. No flying spoils first impressions from game, i.e. when player gets flying, all content is already done many times and in case of time gating it can already be done on alts too. I.e. flying is just useless for them. Maybe it's Blizzards' goal to give flying, only when it's already useless. But it means, that I don't have any period of time, when I can truly enjoy game. Also players have to wait for that arbitrary time gates to end. It's also not healthy way of playing game. You should want to play it at release, not one year after that. It, again, spoils your impressions about game.

The desire for flying is a symptom of another problem, one of Blizzard's we making:

Travelling along the ground isn't fun. Not after MoP.

Starting with WoD, Blizzard's environment designers forgot 10 years of zone design and began designing the layout of their zones to be as inconvenient to navigate on foot as possible. Worse, starting with WoD, the mob density was jacked up, so now you can't travel 10 feet without aggroing some mob. Also, you get dazed. So travelling on foot is now a tremendous pain in the ass. Worse, you are required to travel on foot because the game revolves around doing your world quest chores, and also doing your legendary questline/war campaign/covenant campaign. So you have to do A LOT of travelling on foot and it sucks.

Flying in WoW isn't fun. If you want an example of a flying mechanic that is fun, look no further than GW2's implementation. No, flying in WoW is tolerable, and preferable to the aggravating experience that is travelling on the ground.

Problems actually started back in MOP. First sign was Molten Front in 4.2. We had such locations before that moment, but they were mostly optional.

What I hate the most - is so called "claustrophobic" design. I.e. when mobs are too packed, there are too few of them, so they respawn too fast, that makes killing them completely pointless, as 1st mob respawns quicker, than you kill 2nd one, that causes you to get stuck in endless bugged combat. It's very lazy and cheap design. Blizzard assume, that they can simply change scale of content to make it cheaper to develop - make it smaller, but increase density of mobs and respawn rate. But it doesn't work well. It kills all immersion and makes me feel, that game is just broken. So it's just natural feeling, that you want to just fly over them instead of wasting your time on killing them. For example lower edge of Korthia suffers from it the most.

Another thing, I hate - is so called "challenging outdoor content". It's when Blizzard start to do something like also putting elites here and there. And you must understand, that elites are pointless. They don't even give you better rewards. Just the same grey guts. They exist for sole purpose of groups or players in overgear having illusion, that they're more effective, than solo players. While they actually don't. If you're in group, it's more profitable to kill 10 normal mobs, than 1 elite, because that elite gives you exactly the same reward, as 1 normal mob. Again. There is natural feeling, that it would be better to simply fly over them.

And things like navigation puzzles and rare/treasure hunting - are just things, that aren't for me. They remind me grinding mats back in old times, when you had to fly around location via some route again, again and again and seek for RNG spawns, other players could steal at any moment. Well, may be it would be ok to fly around location. But ride on a ground? With all that trail of aggroed mobs? Hell, no. And I just don't understand, why all players should be forced to be on a ground, because some % of players likes such content.

Overall aggro and combat feel like extremely outdated and obsoleted mechanics. They're about "If you start combat - you switch to completely different mode, you can't do anything in and can't escape it easily". Do we really need such ancient artifact in 2021/22?

Problem with flying - it's one of tabooed topics, Blizzard are 100% deaf about. I.e. that "We know it better, so we don't listen any feedback and 0% discussions about any improvement for this situation". Yeah, now Blizzard are more "inclusive", but it doesn't mean that all kinds of players are represented in their team, so all feedback is actually heard.

Overall Blizzard blame players for wanting to be more effective instead of playing game RPGish way, i.e.via slowly dealing with all obstacles. They treat us as cheaters, who just want to get all rewards without earning them. That isn't the case. For example I don't even care about quality of rewards. They're just souvenirs for me, that are about "I was there". We just want more meditative, chilling and relaxing game, not tedious game, that annoys us. Because we have enough tediousness and annoyances IRL to also have them in game, we pay for.

[muto]

No, it should be learned right at max level for a price, like it was in BC, and Wrath.

If they want to compromise they can make like 4 zones no flying, and 4 zones flying.

[TheWorkingTitle]

Yes. Flying shouldn't even be in the game. They've admitted as such. However, this compromise is fine. After the content is completed and mostly irrelevant, then you can have flying for your alts or whatever.

[Noradin]

Maybe they could move it up a little from where they do now, but what I DO NOT WANT is flying actually at release of a new expansion. It was crappy, and horribly immersion breaking to fight your way in on a quest, just to watch two guys land on the boss from the air, kill him and take off, leaving you standing there with your thumb up your ass. (Cata, if you don't recognize what I'm talking about.)

So, while I'm all good with making it simpler, I do not want automatic flying at release of a new area or expansion.

They should simply allow flying for everyone two weeks after a zone is released.
That way those who want to explore and compete without it get their time without the downside of making it a tool for bored "hardcore" players to harrass alts and those who got behind due to their available time with.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

I think a compromise is still good as opposed to starting with flight or never having flight.

But I think the Pathfinder requirements are increasingly archaic and have morphed from a way to "ensure you have done the content as intended first" to "a way to artificially incentivize you to do treadmills you otherwise wouldn't."

[Ryzeth]

Well that's not a loaded poll at all.

[Nzx]

Nah, "Pathfinder" style achievements are good. Means you actually have to experience the world and problem solve a little bit to get to where you're going for the first part of the expansion, and then once you've done it a bunch of times you can then just fly so far above it the draw distance won't even cover the ground and ignore every mechanic and all of the world design that went into creating the zone for the rest of the expansion.

[Biomega]

Not having flying has never increased my enjoyment of a zone, or made me appreciate it more.

You know what my all-time favorite zone is in WoW? Deepholm. Why? Because flying allows you to truly appreciate its beauty, while being stuck on the ground trying to navigate your way through rocks and chasms only makes you appreciate finally being done with this bullshit.

[VinceVega]

They could move it up but not i don't want flying with release of the expansion. Maybe faster with the first patch. Pathfinder requirements being there at release so you can get it immediatly with the first patch?
The moment you get flying the world is empty. Levleing on the ground is horrible if someone else can fly and just kill everything you worked your way to on foot. So you basically have no choice but to fly too.

Also: If you make a pole try to be inpartiall at least? It sounds like you accuse people of something horrible who don't want flying at the start.

[Lochton]

Having pathfinder without the rep grind is a great tool, I believe. Make sure the map is explored and the main story is completed, and then the flight is unlocked for the whole account. Feels better than just dumping a bag of gold pr. character.

I'd rather have zones worth exploring and looking at than multiple flat zone designs all the time. Making earning of flight feel a bit more extra, as it becomes a valued tool as well.

[potis]

The delay of flying has 2 purposes.

To delay even if its a few minutes/hours the progression so it feels longer.

To extend the duration where things are fresh and people are interested and come back which results in "World PvP" for the PvPers, nowadays warmode on and with this probably the feeling of a "full MMO world", so maybe 3 purposes?

I dont like the lack of flying also, but i am a lazy-close to raid logger player that does the bare minimum required for my character to be decent and i Alt+F4, but i understand why delaying it makes sense also.

[cozzri]

The problem with the gate is that there's just one
PVP players need a progression to unlock it.
Raiders need a path to unlock it.
Crafters need to have a gate to unlock it.

And it needs to come SOONER.
By the time you finish the unlock, you already beat the game and all its content and really have no reason to go back...

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

The problem with the gate is that there's just one
PVP players need a progression to unlock it.
Raiders need a path to unlock it.
Crafters need to have a gate to unlock it.

And it needs to come SOONER.
By the time you finish the unlock, you already beat the game and all its content and really have no reason to go back...

Why not bring back the old trainings like Cold Weather Flying, Wisdom of the Four Winds, Flight Master's Liscense....

But instead of them being gold sinks they're purchased with a relevant currency (Arena Points, Anima-type Currency, maybe Raid Tokens, return of Justice maybe).

[cozzri]

Why not bring back the old trainings like Cold Weather Flying, Wisdom of the Four Winds, Flight Master's Liscense....

But instead of them being gold sinks they're purchased with a relevant currency (Arena Points, Anima-type Currency, maybe Raid Tokens, return of Justice maybe).

At this point I would just be happy to unlock it in the store for $20.... Gold unlock is just a WoW token anyway....

[XDurionX]

Flying was the game's biggest mistake from the get go. They surely didn't think of the long term implications of this failure.

[Devilyaki]

Not needed in the slightest. Should just do as ff14 does, do the zone quests and get the points of interest then you fly. No waited 2 years of boredom getting you daily slower for the sake of nothing.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Flying was the game's biggest mistake from the get go. They surely didn't think of the long term implications of this failure.

I don't think flying mounts were a mistake. If flying mounts weren't added, WoW wouldn't have grown as big as it did reaching 12 million subscribers. The fantasy of being able to fly through a fantastical world on a dragon or a gryphon was absolutely a selling point that gave WoW mass appeal and a leg up over the competition. If Warhammer AoR released in 2008 with flying mounts (and they were advertised), that could have Warhammer a much larger population and have lasted longer. Ofcourse, Warhammer had a combination of things going against it that ultimately led to its demise, just as how flying was just one of many things going for WoW that made it an unprecedented success.



This image is very underrated. It got people interested in WoW. And if you walked into Walmart, and noticed that green box for that World of Warcraft game that everyone was talking about, and opened the cover, you would see this:





No other game at the time promised that.

I think people have forgotten that being able to play as an angel and fly was the core selling point of Aion, which was also huge at the time of its release. The idea of flying is nothing to scoff at.

[Swnem]

No. There is literally nothing to gain by gating flying except expanding play time metrics and filling ego's.
It does not make the game more fun for anyone.

The world pvp argument doesn't even stick anymore cause BfA showed that no one cares about it.

Flying should be unlocked upon finishing the leveling story campaign. That simple. WQ's wouldn't be nearly as horrid if it was.
Unlocking flying only when the content is no longer relevant is quite honestly disgusting, which is what they did in SL. All it was good for was some herbing. They obviously still don't allow flying on current patch zones. It's infuriating.