Look how simple it is to give Dark Rangers fans some love:

[Temp name]

If it was simple to make you guys happy, you'd be happy with the transmog and character customization options you just got in 9.2.5

[username993720]

If it was simple to make you guys happy, you'd be happy with the transmog and character customization options you just got in 9.2.5

Would you be happy with a store mount instead of an actual content?

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Let' take a look, shall we?
Black Arrow, Mind Control, Barbed Arrow, Festering Wound, Multishot, Trick Shots, Volley, Death Siphon, Rapid Fire, Preparation, Steady Aim, Cull the Weak.

You are listing priest, warlock, DK, and hunter ability's Dark rangers have never in game(mind control was in Wc3 though) and you just added to your fanfic with no baring on what DR have actually been able to do.

Then take a look at HotS characters.

For the sake of franchises warcraft characters would count even in hots, other blizzard games would not. You don't see demon hunters using strafe outside of diablo for example.

Well, you've got a spellcasting shadowy spec with Shadow Priests and a melee shadowy spec with Subtlety Rogue, but not a Ranged or a tanking one.

No matter how you slice it there is more shadow then there is fire, and druids of the flame could be a dot based spec and a tanking spec something we also don't have.

They only had Raise Dead. Their other abilities were literally Warlock and Warrior abilities.

arthas has 4 ability's in Wc3, Raise dead which dk's had, unholy aura, changed to do damage as aura of agony, Death coil, which dk's had, and death pact unaccounted for.

so out of the 4 dk ability's dk's had 2 exact and one changed as movement speed is useless for raid mob, leaving only one ability missing compared to dark rangers who only got one ability's.

Fandral is just a less succesful clone of Malfurion.

Ignoring the fact that they are totally different character archetypes with totally different story's and motivations, sure just a clone, still more relevant then Chen ever was though even after mop.

[username993720]

You are listing priest, warlock, DK, and hunter ability's Dark rangers have never in game(mind control was in Wc3 though) and you just added to your fanfic with no baring on what DR have actually been able to do.

Mind Control is Sylvanas' ability in HotS. It makes sense, as they are said to be: "A cunning Hero, adept at manipulating opponents." In WCIII.

The former DK abilities are part of her HotS kit and are not present in the DK anymore. A great opportunity to reintroduce them differently.

The Hunter abilities make a lot of sense, as they are, you know, Rangers who are expert archers. Just take this theme out of the Hunter, so it could be repurposed for a Ranger class, while the Hunter will be changed into more of a Sharpshooter.

For the sake of franchises warcraft characters would count even in hots, other blizzard games would not. You don't see demon hunters using strafe outside of diablo for example.

The Diablo 3 Demon Hunters is not the WoW one. It is clearly a mix between a Hunter and a Rogue, like the Dark Ranger.
I was talking about Illidan, Alextrasza, Chromie and Deathwing.

No matter how you slice it there is more shadow then there is fire, and druids of the flame could be a dot based spec and a tanking spec something we also don't have.

Druid of the Flame wasn't even a thing before Cataclysm. It doesn't even appear in the RPG.

arthas has 4 ability's in Wc3, Raise dead which dk's had, unholy aura, changed to do damage as aura of agony, Death coil, which dk's had, and death pact unaccounted for.

so out of the 4 dk ability's dk's had 2 exact and one changed as movement speed is useless for raid mob, leaving only one ability missing compared to dark rangers who only got one ability's.

Aura of Agony? That's a Warlock's Agony curse:

Aura of Agony
30 yd range
Instant
Curses an enemy with agony, inflicting Shadow damage every 2 sec. over 8 sec. Only one curse per warlock can be active on any one target.

I don't remember seeing Death Coil on Death Knight NPCs during vanilla.

Ignoring the fact that they are totally different character archetypes with totally different story's and motivations, sure just a clone, still more relevant then Chen ever was though even after mop.

I never said anything about Chen.
At least the guy's unique and not just a pale imitation of another character.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Mind Control is Sylvanas' ability in HotS. It makes sense, as they are said to be: "A cunning Hero, adept at manipulating opponents." In WCIII.

The former DK abilities are part of her HotS kit and are not present in the DK anymore. A great opportunity to reintroduce them differently.

The Hunter abilities make a lot of sense, as they are, you know, Rangers who are expert archers. Just take this theme out of the Hunter, so it could be repurposed for a Ranger class, while the Hunter will be changed into more of a Sharpshooter.

so we agree these aren’t ability’s dark rangers have in wow they are from other games (wc3 hots) or are part of hunters.

Also nit pick but festering wound is still a DK ability and I believe the core function of unholy’S dps.

The Diablo 3 Demon Hunters is not the WoW one.

exactly what the other franchises do is irrelevant and you using them as examples in your own DR thread is silly.

Druid of the Flame wasn't even a thing before Cataclysm. It doesn't even appear in the RPG.

I mean neither do evokers, newness and not being in the RPG is kinda irrelevant as of DF.

Aura of Agony? That's a Warlock's Agony curse:

mix up on my part DK’s are mixing up in my head. Rivendare has unholy aura,aura of agony is just another evil aura they had in classic sticking with the theme.

I don't remember seeing Death Coil on Death Knight NPCs during vanilla.

I believe some in the plague land or naxx have it, I’ll see if I can find it.

I never said anything about Chen.
At least the guy's unique and not just a pale imitation of another character.

no you mentioned arthas and illidan and how they are more important then Fandrel, but when we have Chen for monks them being big important becomes kinda irrelevant as Chen has far less going for him in every degree compared to Fandrel.

[Triceron]

Let's take a look, shall we?
"Dwarves can tap into their Earthen heritage to undergo a temporary partial sclerosis, known to the layman as [Stoneform]." Does this apply to Wildhammers? Yes.
Might of the Mountain used to be Mace specialization. What weapon do Gryphon Riders use? Stormhammers.
Explorer's Guild memebers: Wildhammer Dwarves.
The only thing that can be changed is Frost Resistance.

You're misunderstanding the argument.

It's not about how well we think the existing gameplay can fit the concept, it's about how your personal bias is getting in the way of accepting the race or class as officially playable, without new unique gameplay.

I can make the argument that Wildhammer Dwarves aren't treasure-hunters and they don't embrace their Titan heritage. I can make the argument that they're lacking Rune specializations, or anything that reflects their skills in animal husbandry or taking flight into the skies. This would be akin to how you would look at the current Dark Ranger, and only see it for what's missing rather than what's already there. Because if you really took a good look at the Hunter class' abilities, there's plenty there to represent a Dark Ranger already, just not the Dark Ranger that you personally want to play as. Just as you're explaining to me that the Wildhammer can be represented by the Bronzebeard Dwarf racials, even though that isn't what Wildhammer's are about. You don't have a strong sense of what you think a Wildhammer Dwarf concept should be, therefore you think Dwarf racials would fit. You have a strong sense of what you think Dark Ranger concept should be, therefore you can not accept anything less than what you expect should be a standalone Dark Ranger class.

Your opinion is biased towards Dark Rangers needing to be represented in full because their concept is much broader than simply being a Hunter, right? I totally get your sentiment. It makes sense. But that doesn't mean Blizzard feels the same way.

Both Wildhammers and Dark Rangers are made playable through Customizations. We can make points on what we think they should be, but that has no bearing on what Blizzard will present to us definitively. There's no mandate to make either Wildhammer or Dark Rangers into standalone playable options in the future.

Blizzard merely sees Dark Ranger as a title for Undead Elf Hunter. That is it's definition now. Not a Class that has Banshee powers and Mind Control and the ability to dual wield daggers. It is merely an Undead Hunter. And to make that association clear, all Hunters are broadening their own scope by having access to Dark Ranger abilities like Wailing Arrow.

No? Metamorphosis? The demonic form changing some of your abilities? Demonic Fury granting you wings and horns? Betrayer's Regalia armor set? Let me remind you that we didn't have customization options back then.

And none of those customizations represent the Illidari Demon Hunters, trained by Illidan, playable on the Alliance and Horde. The Green Fire questline was very clear that Warlocks gained this by mimicing Illidan, not changing themselves to become Demon Hunters. It's the lore equivalent of Covenant abilities being granted to existing classes without changing their identity. Mages did not become 'Liches' or 'Necromancers' from having a Skeletal Mage form or using Shadow magic through Necrolord Covenant, right? The lore was not affected by any of these customizations. Paladins did not become 'Death Knights' from using Necromantic magic. Understand the difference?

Dark Ranger is a completely separate matter since it is the FIRST time that Blizzard has actually provided customizations that TIE INTO lore. The customizations literally represent the Dark Rangers joining the Horde and Alliance, and represents them being playable through the Hunter class. This is why Wailing Arrow has appeared on the Hunter. All Hunters now have access to Dark Ranger abilities; and frankly they always had in retrospect from having Black Arrow.

If Blizzard has any intention on adding more Dark Ranger abilities in the future, it would be through the Hunter class and not as a Standalone concept. And unlike the DH/Warlock relationship that was dictated purely by Xelnath, what we're seeing with the Dark Ranger is an ensemble effort in presenting them through the Hunter class. We have the Class designers who are putting Wailing Arrow into the Hunter talents, the Story writers creating lore explanations for how the Dark Rangers join back into the Horde and Alliance, the Artists who are providing the customizations and transmogs. This is the direction that Blizzard has chosen the Dark Ranger to go in.

[username993720]

so we agree these aren’t ability’s dark rangers have in wow they are from other games (wc3 hots) or are part of hunters.

Dark Ranger NPCs do not matter whatsoever. Only Sylvanas.

Also nit pick but festering wound is still a DK ability and I believe the core function of unholy’S dps.

Right. My bad.

exactly what the other franchises do is irrelevant and you using them as examples in your own DR thread is silly.

Not when they overlap with WoW ones.

I mean neither do evokers, newness and not being in the RPG is kinda irrelevant as of DF.

They sort of existed as Dragonsworn.

mix up on my part DK’s are mixing up in my head. Rivendare has unholy aura,aura of agony is just another evil aura they had in classic sticking with the theme.

Okay. That's 2. Like Black Arrow and Silencing Shot.

I believe some in the plague land or naxx have it, I’ll see if I can find it.

Very well.

no you mentioned arthas and illidan and how they are more important then Fandrel, but when we have Chen for monks them being big important becomes kinda irrelevant as Chen has far less going for him in every degree compared to Fandrel.

As basis for their classes. Yes.
Even in WCIII, Chen was a Hero character while Fandral was nowhere to be found.

You're misunderstanding the argument.

It's not about how well we think the existing gameplay can fit the concept, it's about how your personal bias is getting in the way of accepting the race or class as officially playable, without new unique gameplay.

I can make the argument that Wildhammer Dwarves aren't treasure-hunters and they don't embrace their Titan heritage. I can make the argument that they're lacking Rune specializations, or anything that reflects their skills in animal husbandry or taking flight into the skies. This would be akin to how you would look at the current Dark Ranger, and only see it for what's missing rather than what's already there. Because if you really took a good look at the Hunter class' abilities, there's plenty there to represent a Dark Ranger already, just not the Dark Ranger that you personally want to play as. Just as you're explaining to me that the Wildhammer can be represented by the Bronzebeard Dwarf racials, even though that isn't what Wildhammer's are about. You don't have a strong sense of what you think a Wildhammer Dwarf concept should be, therefore you think Dwarf racials would fit. You have a strong sense of what you think Dark Ranger concept should be, therefore you can not accept anything less than what you expect should be a standalone Dark Ranger class.

Your opinion is biased towards Dark Rangers needing to be represented in full because their concept is much broader than simply being a Hunter, right? I totally get your sentiment. It makes sense. But that doesn't mean Blizzard feels the same way.

Both Wildhammers and Dark Rangers are made playable through Customizations. We can make points on what we think they should be, but that has no bearing on what Blizzard will present to us definitively. There's no mandate to make either Wildhammer or Dark Rangers into standalone playable options in the future.

Blizzard merely sees Dark Ranger as a title for Undead Elf Hunter. That is it's definition now. Not a Class that has Banshee powers and Mind Control and the ability to dual wield daggers. It is merely an Undead Hunter. And to make that association clear, all Hunters are broadening their own scope by having access to Dark Ranger abilities like Wailing Arrow.

The Hunter might cover the archery aspect of Dark Rangers, but that's just a part of their kit.

Comparing it to Wildhammers is misleading.
Let's take the 3 clans, for example. All 3 are fond of hammers. But, while 2 of them are associated with lightning, the third is associated with Fire. That's what sets it apart from the other 2.
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/wo...20200518201305
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/wo...20200416003358
https://wow.zamimg.com/uploads/scree...-thurgaden.jpg

And none of those customizations represent the Illidari Demon Hunters, trained by Illidan, playable on the Alliance and Horde. The Green Fire questline was very clear that Warlocks gained this by mimicing Illidan, not changing themselves to become Demon Hunters. It's the lore equivalent of Covenant abilities being granted to existing classes without changing their identity. Mages did not become 'Liches' or 'Necromancers' from having a Skeletal Mage form or using Shadow magic through Necrolord Covenant, right? The lore was not affected by any of these customizations. Paladins did not become 'Death Knights' from using Necromantic magic. Understand the difference?

Yet, it was removed from the Warlock the moment Demon Hunters came into the picture.

Dark Ranger is a completely separate matter since it is the FIRST time that Blizzard has actually provided customizations that TIE INTO lore. The customizations literally represent the Dark Rangers joining the Horde and Alliance, and represents them being playable through the Hunter class. This is why Wailing Arrow has appeared on the Hunter. All Hunters now have access to Dark Ranger abilities; and frankly they always had in retrospect from having Black Arrow.

If Blizzard has any intention on adding more Dark Ranger abilities in the future, it would be through the Hunter class and not as a Standalone concept. And unlike the DH/Warlock relationship that was dictated purely by Xelnath, what we're seeing with the Dark Ranger is an ensemble effort in presenting them through the Hunter class. We have the Class designers who are putting Wailing Arrow into the Hunter talents, the Story writers creating lore explanations for how the Dark Rangers join back into the Horde and Alliance, the Artists who are providing the customizations and transmogs. This is the direction that Blizzard has chosen the Dark Ranger to go in.

So, they did the whole Burning of Teldrassil just so they could add these as customization options? Seems like a lot of fuss for such a little payback.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Dark Ranger NPCs do not matter whatsoever. Only Sylvanas.

sure only sylvanas matters, she still has less ability’s then Druids of the flame pre Sl even if you take her ability’s from other games like WC3 and hots and I’m pretty sure even in hots she locks things like rapid fire or steady aim and likely a few others, though I haven’t gone through all of her talents in hots recently so I could be wrong.

Not when they overlap with WoW ones.

then it surely is a shame that they don’t over lap with wow At all given that overwatch is tech based and Diablo3 is about being angel/demon spawn more powerful then any other being in existence, both a far cry from just being a zombie elf or a banshee.

They sort of existed as Dragonsworn.

dragon sworn are a wholly different concept, might as well say Druids of the flame are in the RPG to through muli classing into Druid and fire spells.

As basis for their classes. Yes.
Even in WCIII, Chen was a Hero character while Fandral was nowhere to be found.

yes but being a hero character isn’t actually relevant to being a class any more and other then that Fandrel has more lore then Chen, shows up in more content then Chen, has more importance to his race then Chen, and has caused bigger shifts to Azeroth then Chen.

On every level of character importance he beats Chen by miles even if he was only made in wow and isn’t present in wc3.

[username993720]

sure only sylvanas matters, she still has less ability’s then Druids of the flame pre Sl even if you take her ability’s from other games like WC3 and hots and I’m pretty sure even in hots she locks things like rapid fire or steady aim and likely a few others, though I haven’t gone through all of her talents in hots recently so I could be wrong.

That was the point of BfA and Shadowlands, though. Expanding on her abilities.

then it surely is a shame that they don’t over lap with wow At all given that overwatch is tech based and Diablo3 is about being angel/demon spawn more powerful then any other being in existence, both a far cry from just being a zombie elf or a banshee.

Have you ever checked their abilities?

dragon sworn are a wholly different concept, might as well say Druids of the flame are in the RPG to through muli classing into Druid and fire spells.

I'd consider them an old version of the Evoker which needed an update to be brought to current days.

yes but being a hero character isn’t actually relevant to being a class any more and other then that Fandrel has more lore then Chen, shows up in more content then Chen, has more importance to his race then Chen, and has caused bigger shifts to Azeroth then Chen.

On every level of character importance he beats Chen by miles even if he was only made in wow and isn’t present in wc3.

And a Druid at the end of the day.

[Triceron]

The Hunter might cover the archery aspect of Dark Rangers, but that's just a part of their kit.

Comparing it to Wildhammers is misleading.
Let's take the 3 clans, for example. All 3 are fond of hammers. But, while 2 of them are associated with lightning, the third is associated with Fire. That's what sets it apart from the other 2.

Again, you're repeating the same things here. You're generalizing the Wildhammers, while equally generalizing Dark Rangers. You're doing the same thing to both, but you only acknowledge Archery as being 'part of the kit' while having zero acknowlegement that the fact that your Wildhammer examples are also just 'part of the kit'. Where is the Animal husbandry, the Runesmithing, the fondness for the open skies? None of those aspects are represented at all.

Wildhammer aren't just Dwarves that use a different element. They are a completely different clan with different physical traits, cultures and ideals. They don't embrace their Titan heritage, they don't delve into the depths for treasure.

So really, if you're okay with generalizing the Wildhammer Dwarves in this way and saying 'it's not a big deal' then I don't see why you can't apply that same logic to Dark Rangers. Cuz really, what's the big deal? You have an undead elven archer with Wailing Arrow, and that is what Blizzard is officially calling a Dark Ranger. If you're okay with Wildhammers being "Dwarf that likes lightning", then there shouldn't be any problem with Dark Rangers being "Elven Hunters with pale skin and red eyes"

They're both officially playable as customizations. Archery is no longer just a 'part of the kit'. It is the kit. And Dark Rangers are merely Hunters at the end of the day.

Yet, it was removed from the Warlock the moment Demon Hunters came into the picture.

Yes, it was. And?

Warlocks had Death Coil and that was also removed when DK's came into the picture. Does this mean Warlocks were Death Knights?

So, they did the whole Burning of Teldrassil just so they could add these as customization options? Seems like a lot of fuss for such a little payback.

Yes. That's what it ultimately ended up being.

I mean I could also say it's a fuss that they created an entire zone and Rep faction for Wildhammer Dwarves in Cataclysm, and they ended up making them customizations only. Or they had Vereesa and Alleria both return without having introduced High Elves as playable, only as customizations. Or they created entire zones in WoD with the Ogre Empire, but no playable Ogres. Sometimes, there isn't any payback at all. It's just what it is.

Any further questions?

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Have you ever checked their abilities?

I have and unfortunately drop kicking ferret's don't have any thing to do with wow.

I'd consider them an old version of the Evoker which needed an update to be brought to current days.

They have nothing to do with evokers, if they were making dragon spawn or other mortals changed due to exposure to dragons then sure but evokers and dragon sworn have nothing in common other then being related to dragons.

And a Druid at the end of the day.

until he stopped being a normal druid and became a druid of the flame, just like how priest stopped being priest and became paladins or dark rangers stopped be rangers and became dark.

[username993720]

Again, you're repeating the same things here. You're generalizing the Wildhammers, while equally generalizing Dark Rangers. You're doing the same thing to both, but you only acknowledge Archery as being 'part of the kit' while having zero acknowlegement that the fact that your Wildhammer examples are also just 'part of the kit'. Where is the Animal husbandry, the Runesmithing, the fondness for the open skies? None of those aspects are represented at all.

Wildhammer aren't just Dwarves that use a different element. They are a completely different clan with different physical traits, cultures and ideals. They don't embrace their Titan heritage, they don't delve into the depths for treasure.

So really, if you're okay with generalizing the Wildhammer Dwarves in this way and saying 'it's not a big deal' then I don't see why you can't apply that same logic to Dark Rangers. Cuz really, what's the big deal? You have an undead elven archer with Wailing Arrow, and that is what Blizzard is officially calling a Dark Ranger. If you're okay with Wildhammers being "Dwarf that likes lightning", then there shouldn't be any problem with Dark Rangers being "Elven Hunters with pale skin and red eyes"

They're both officially playable as customizations. Archery is no longer just a 'part of the kit'. It is the kit. And Dark Rangers are merely Hunters at the end of the day.

Ironforge Dwarves also ride Gryphons. They just don't master it like Wildhammers. I don't remember Runesmithing being a part of the Wildhammer culture, but smithing as a whole is a dwarf trait.
The real reason i think these guys ended up as a customization option - being based on a similar real-life culture:
"Heavily based on Scottish culture, such as "beer and haggis" being the lunch of champions for dwarves in [Ironforge Rations].
The use of colored tattoos are likely based on the Picts use of war paint.
"The Picts were a group of peoples who lived in what is now northern and eastern Scotland (north of the Firth of Forth) during Late Antiquity and the Early Middle Ages."



Warpaint
Talent
Requires Warrior (Fury)
Requires level 35
You take 10% reduced damage while Enrage is active.

Moreover, the Dark Iron Dwarves were based on a D&D race called the Duergar:


That's why you see Allied races like Void elves and Nightborne, who are based on races like the Drow from D&D and Warhammer Dark Elves instead of High elves, which are exactly like Blood elves minus the addiction trait:



Now, is the Dark Ranger part of the classic Ranger RPG description?
"Rangers skills in books and games can include and are not limited to:
Combat expertise with bows and other ranged weapons, often the result of years hunting wild animals.
Use in martial combat weapons, often swords, axes, and daggers; oftentimes they may dual-wield such weapons and rely on finesse over brute strength.
Throwing knives.
Non-magical stealth.
Climbing.
Detecting or laying traps.
Taming, calming or charming animals; often they may be accompanied by a favored animal companion.
Tracking and leaving no trail to be tracked
Knowledge of herbs for medical and poisonous uses.
The art of healing (magical or medical) due to their self-reliance.
Land and nature related magic and enchantments or the ability to recognize them or resistance to them.
Ability to move quickly through any terrain they are familiar with."

I don't see shadow magic being mentioned, do you?

Yes, it was. And?

Warlocks had Death Coil and that was also removed when DK's came into the picture. Does this mean Warlocks were Death Knights?

If their version of Metamorphosis wasn't a Demon Hunter trait, as you claimed, it would have stayed. Death Coil was replaced by Mortal Coil.

Yes. That's what it ultimately ended up being.

I mean I could also say it's a fuss that they created an entire zone and Rep faction for Wildhammer Dwarves in Cataclysm, and they ended up making them customizations only. Or they had Vereesa and Alleria both return without having introduced High Elves as playable, only as customizations. Or they created entire zones in WoD with the Ogre Empire, but no playable Ogres. Sometimes, there isn't any payback at all. It's just what it is.

Any further questions?

The little town in that Cataclysm zone? Hardly memorable.
Alleria returned and introduced the Void elves, that's the payback. Vereessa was never much of a character, not even getting a special model.
The Ogre Empire was in ruins and they cut the Ogre continent completely. Nonetheless, i strongly believe they intend on introducing them, from what i've seen of Kul Tirans and Rexxar.

I have and unfortunately drop kicking ferret's don't have any thing to do with wow.

What?

They have nothing to do with evokers, if they were making dragon spawn or other mortals changed due to exposure to dragons then sure but evokers and dragon sworn have nothing in common other then being related to dragons.

The use of aspects' powers.

until he stopped being a normal druid and became a druid of the flame, just like how priest stopped being priest and became paladins or dark rangers stopped be rangers and became dark.

Which is a race at best.

[Triceron]

Ironforge Dwarves also ride Gryphons. They just don't master it like Wildhammers. I don't remember Runesmithing being a part of the Wildhammer culture, but smithing as a whole is a dwarf trait.
The real reason i think these guys ended up as a customization option - being based on a similar real-life culture:

If you can apply logic to Wildhammer to say they are no different from Bronzebeard Dwarves, then I could literally point at all the similarities between Dark Rangers and Hunters and point out to you that the same has happened here.

Everything else that is missing is just abilities that aren't being represented by the Hunter. That's it. Just like how Blizzard removed certain iconic abilities from classes, like Paladins losing Auras for a few expansions, or Hunter no longer having a Ranged Survival spec to represent the "Rangers".

If their version of Metamorphosis wasn't a Demon Hunter trait, as you claimed, it would have stayed. Death Coil was replaced by Mortal Coil.

If your point is to say Demon Hunters were playable because Warlocks had Metamorphosis, then your reasoning is faulty since Warlocks were never Demon Hunters.

The little town in that Cataclysm zone? Hardly memorable.

Hardly a criteria to consider. Allied Races weren't picked on the basis of them having memorable origin zones. My point is we had an entire zone dedicated to Wildhammer lore that has not been represented by the Bronzebeard Dwarf talents.

The Ogre Empire was in ruins and they cut the Ogre continent completely. Nonetheless, i strongly believe they intend on introducing them, from what i've seen of Kul Tirans and Rexxar.

And I could say the Lore has defined Dark Rangers as part of the Alliance and Horde in 9.2.5, and made playable through Dark Ranger customizations. There is no need to introduce what is already playable.

[username993720]

If you can apply logic to Wildhammer to say they are no different from Bronzebeard Dwarves, then I could literally point at all the similarities between Dark Rangers and Hunters and point out to you that the same has happened here.

Everything else that is missing is just abilities that aren't being represented by the Hunter. That's it. Just like how Blizzard removed certain iconic abilities from classes, like Paladins losing Auras for a few expansions, or Hunter no longer having a Ranged Survival spec to represent the "Rangers".

Never said they were the same. Similar enough to make them a customization option, like Sand and Dark Trolls. Why do you think they picked Dark Iron and Zandalari over these?

It's the same as the Dark Ranger situation. Why do you think they chose the Beastmaster, the Sharpshooter and the Headhunter to represent the Hunter over things like Dark Ranger, Priestess of the Moon or Sea Witch when they created the class?

If your point is to say Demon Hunters were playable because Warlocks had Metamorphosis, then your reasoning is faulty since Warlocks were never Demon Hunters.

Then why would their Metamorphosis present a problem?

Hardly a criteria to consider. Allied Races weren't picked on the basis of them having memorable origin zones. My point is we had an entire zone dedicated to Wildhammer lore that has not been represented by the Bronzebeard Dwarf talents.

You mean racials?
They were given the Shaman class due to the Wildhammers joining the Council of Three Hammers.

And I could say the Lore has defined Dark Rangers as part of the Alliance and Horde in 9.2.5, and made playable through Dark Ranger customizations. There is no need to introduce what is already playable.

Question: why are these customization called Dark Ranger and not Darkfallen? It is a race customization option, not a class one.

[Nzx]

lmao at you people writing essays with sources and inline images to argue about a non-existent class in a video game

[Triceron]

Never said they were the same. Similar enough to make them a customization option, like Sand and Dark Trolls. Why do you think they picked Dark Iron and Zandalari over these?

My personal opinion? Diversity sake, because they opted to represent something much more radical than something familiar. I mean, the obvious pick for Alliance races would be Wildhammers and High Elves since they were always a part of the Alliance since WC2, and technically were always a part of the Alliance since WoW began. Yet Dark Irons and Void Elves offer some diversity since they have unexplored subthemes attached to them. They literally invented Void Elf for this purpose.

It's the same as the Dark Ranger situation. Why do you think they chose the Beastmaster, the Sharpshooter and the Headhunter to represent the Hunter over things like Dark Ranger, Priestess of the Moon or Sea Witch when they created the class?

Except they did include the Dark Ranger. Like I said many times, they were one of the classes present in the Hunter Order Hall, alongside the Beastmasters, Sharpshooters and Headhunters. We don't see any Priestess of the Moon or Sea Witches in the Unseen Path, yet we do see Beastmasters and Dark Rangers.

This is why I keep pointing out that Blizzard had already laid down the foundation for them to be fully represented by the Hunter class. 9.2.5 merely made it official and retroactively made the Order Halls officially representing all Hunter subthemes as well.

Then why would their Metamorphosis present a problem?

Why is it a problem? I don't see any problem at all, considering their reasoning to switch up Demonology was to explore the Summoner fantasy that they felt was lost over the years.

Otherwise, there is no problem with having both Warlocks and DH with Metamorphosis, if they chose to design the game that way. Warlocks could have kept it. Their Metamorphosis was a completely different Ranged Spellcaster ability while the Demon Hunter's version is purely Melee. They're completely different gameplay systems.

This is like asking why Survival being Ranged presented a problem. There is no problem, it just happens that Blizzard wanted to take these specs in a different direction in Legion.

You mean racials?
They were given the Shaman class due to the Wildhammers joining the Council of Three Hammers.

They were also given Warlocks and Mages due to Dark Irons joining the Council. We still got a separate Dark Iron race.

Question: why are these customization called Dark Ranger and not Darkfallen? It is a race customization option, not a class one.

Because they intend to have Hunters officially represent the Dark Ranger. And the only way to have a Hunter be able to fully represent a Dark Ranger is if it had access to Undead Elves, which they provided in 9.2.5.

If they only intended this to be a race customization, they could have called it 'Darkfallen customizations' and easily left out the Dark Ranger name entirely and saved it for a future standalone class. But it's clear now that they intended to merge both Hunter and Dark Ranger identities as the same class. This is why Wailing Arrow is now a Hunter Talent; they have formally connected the Dark Ranger identity as being an extension of the Hunter class.

And the mention of the Dark Ranger as being the focus of this racial customization is no mistake. The Danuser interview talks about representing the Dark Ranger through customizations if they felt there was a good story moment to do so, like they had added customizations to tie into 8.1's story. They didn't just say 'Darkfallen', they said "Dark Ranger". That means they purposely made 9.2.5 customizations to have the Hunter class definitively represent all things Dark Ranger.

To be honest, I don't know why you still haven't listened to the interview. You wouldn't have to keep asking these questions that have already been answered months ago.

[username993720]

My personal opinion? Diversity sake, because they opted to represent something much more radical than something familiar. I mean, the obvious pick for Alliance races would be Wildhammers and High Elves since they were always a part of the Alliance since WC2, and technically were always a part of the Alliance since WoW began. Yet Dark Irons and Void Elves offer some diversity since they have unexplored subthemes attached to them. They literally invented Void Elf for this purpose.

Exactly. And i'm one who advocated for Wildhammers and High elves due to their inclusion in the Alliance of Lordaeron. That's why Ogres and Forest Trolls are equally as important.

Now, if Dark Rangers were so close to Hunters, why didn't many Hunter abilities appear at Sylvanas' arsenal?

Except they did include the Dark Ranger. Like I said many times, they were one of the classes present in the Hunter Order Hall, alongside the Beastmasters, Sharpshooters and Headhunters. We don't see any Priestess of the Moon or Sea Witches in the Unseen Path, yet we do see Beastmasters and Dark Rangers.

This is why I keep pointing out that Blizzard had already laid down the foundation for them to be fully represented by the Hunter class. 9.2.5 merely made it official and retroactively made the Order Halls officially representing all Hunter subthemes as well.

Yes? Where were Black Arrow, Life Drain, Charm and Silence when the Hunter was created?
And if class halls is what you go by, are Priestesses of the Moon part of the Priest class despite their inability to use bows, pets and lunar spells?
Where are the sea witches in all of this? They wield bows too. Or, are they Shamans now?

Why is it a problem? I don't see any problem at all, considering their reasoning to switch up Demonology was to explore the Summoner fantasy that they felt was lost over the years.

Otherwise, there is no problem with having both Warlocks and DH with Metamorphosis, if they chose to design the game that way. Warlocks could have kept it. Their Metamorphosis was a completely different Ranged Spellcaster ability while the Demon Hunter's version is purely Melee. They're completely different gameplay systems.

This is like asking why Survival being Ranged presented a problem. There is no problem, it just happens that Blizzard wanted to take these specs in a different direction in Legion.

No problem, yet they wouldn't add it back to Warlocks, would they?

They were also given Warlocks and Mages due to Dark Irons joining the Council. We still got a separate Dark Iron race.

Yes, but you asked how Wildhammers' focus in cataclysm affected the Dwarf race.

Because they intend to have Hunters officially represent the Dark Ranger. And the only way to have a Hunter be able to fully represent a Dark Ranger is if it had access to Undead Elves, which they provided in 9.2.5.

If they only intended this to be a race customization, they could have called it 'Darkfallen customizations' and easily left out the Dark Ranger name entirely and saved it for a future standalone class. But it's clear now that they intended to merge both Hunter and Dark Ranger identities as the same class. This is why Wailing Arrow is now a Hunter Talent; they have formally connected the Dark Ranger identity as being an extension of the Hunter class.

And the mention of the Dark Ranger as being the focus of this racial customization is no mistake. The Danuser interview talks about representing the Dark Ranger through customizations if they felt there was a good story moment to do so, like they had added customizations to tie into 8.1's story. They didn't just say 'Darkfallen', they said "Dark Ranger". That means they purposely made 9.2.5 customizations to have the Hunter class definitively represent all things Dark Ranger.

To be honest, I don't know why you still haven't listened to the interview. You wouldn't have to keep asking these questions that have already been answered months ago.

Yet, it isn't limited to Hunters, is it?
You can be all classes with this race customization. Meaning, you are a Darkfallen. Not merely a Dark Ranger.

[Triceron]

Now, if Dark Rangers were so close to Hunters, why didn't many Hunter abilities appear at Sylvanas' arsenal?

What does it matter?

Garrosh didn't have any Warrior abilities in HotS or his raid encounter, he is still a Warrior.

Yes? Where were Black Arrow, Life Drain, Charm and Silence when the Hunter was created?

Silencing shot already exists
No DR has Charm in WoW, not even Sylvanas
Black Arrow was usable by Hunters for many years, now they have Wailing Arrow
Hunters have their own self healing abilities like Exhileration.

Like you said with Wildhammer, it's not as bad as you think.

And if class halls is what you go by, are Priestesses of the Moon part of the Priest class despite their inability to use bows, pets and lunar spells?

Were they in the Priest Order halls? I don't play a Priest to know. It'd be up to Blizzard to make the connection in the future if so.

As I said, the order hall connection is only one part of the equation, not the defining criteria. The key thing that defines the connection is an event such as 9.2.5 that officially recognizes the concepts qs being one and the same. We don't have anything like this for POTM. Merely being present at the Order Hall is one part of the equation, yet one that shouldn't be ignored.

PotM's box has not yet been opened. They have not been defined as anything other than a title for a type of a class concept that we can not play as, much like Shadow Hunters or Wardens currently.

Where are the sea witches in all of this? They wield bows too. Or, are they Shamans now?

There aren't many Sea Witches at all in the game, and all the ones known to us are not defined by existing Player classes. So as far as we know they are as undefined as Necromancers and Runemasters.

No problem, yet they wouldn't add it back to Warlocks, would they?

No one can answer that except Blizzard.

As far as I'm concerned, Demonology Metamorphosis gameplay was unique enough to exist as a 4th spec. They could add it back any time they want.

To me the mechanics are as similar and different as Shamans and Mages both being able to summon Elementals. They do it in different ways. They could even allow you to choose your Demon form, like Shadow Illidan, Legion Nathrezim, Pit Lord or Eredar forms. Really push the idea that the Warlock is mimicing Demon's shape and power.

Yes, but you asked how Wildhammers' focus in cataclysm affected the Dwarf race.

No I didn't. I made a statement that Wildhammer culture is different from Bronzebeards, as we seen in Cataclysm.

I don't need to ask how Wildhammers are defined, I already know their lore is greater and ill represented by Blizzard's official customizations. I also do not openly challenge their decision on the matter, merely illustrate that customizations that ill represent races are still considered official if Blizzard defines it that way.

Yet, it isn't limited to Hunters, is it?
You can be all classes with this race customization. Meaning, you are a Darkfallen. Not merely a Dark Ranger.

You are correct. You are not merely a Dark Ranger, yet a Dark Ranger this still represents.

Nothing you're saying changes the fact that Dark Ranger is still 100% being defined as a Hunter through these race customizations.

No other class gained a 'heritage armor' set for their class to look like Dark Rangers

[Syegfryed]

"give then some love' like they don't get already too fucking much

Taking that away, this imo, is the right direction to go, they should, instead, handle like they did the green fire for warlocks, something merely cosmetic changing color

[username993720]

What does it matter?

Garrosh didn't have any Warrior abilities in HotS or his raid encounter, he is still a Warrior.

What else can he be?

Silencing shot already exists
No DR has Charm in WoW, not even Sylvanas
Black Arrow was usable by Hunters for many years, now they have Wailing Arrow
Hunters have their own self healing abilities like Exhileration.

Like you said with Wildhammer, it's not as bad as you think.

You said the Hunter was created with Dark Ranger in mind, yet none of the WCIII abilities - which vanilla was a continuation of - appeared in the Hunter class.

Were they in the Priest Order halls? I don't play a Priest to know. It'd be up to Blizzard to make the connection in the future if so.

As I said, the order hall connection is only one part of the equation, not the defining criteria. The key thing that defines the connection is an event such as 9.2.5 that officially recognizes the concepts qs being one and the same. We don't have anything like this for POTM. Merely being present at the Order Hall is one part of the equation, yet one that shouldn't be ignored.

PotM's box has not yet been opened. They have not been defined as anything other than a title for a type of a class concept that we can not play as, much like Shadow Hunters or Wardens currently.

Yet, you'd consider black eyes as playable Night Warrior, wouldn't you?

There aren't many Sea Witches at all in the game, and all the ones known to us are not defined by existing Player classes. So as far as we know they are as undefined as Necromancers and Runemasters.

Or, maybe, players weren't requesting them so Blizzard didn't do an half-assed feature to try and please them. It doesn't have anything to do with what Blizzard regards Dark Rangers. It has something to do with pleasing the masses and making money. They were probably pressured. I don't believe they were planning on doing this for a long time now and that this is their perfect vision of a Dark Ranger.

No one can answer that except Blizzard.

As far as I'm concerned, Demonology Metamorphosis gameplay was unique enough to exist as a 4th spec. They could add it back any time they want.

To me the mechanics are as similar and different as Shamans and Mages both being able to summon Elementals. They do it in different ways. They could even allow you to choose your Demon form, like Shadow Illidan, Legion Nathrezim, Pit Lord or Eredar forms. Really push the idea that the Warlock is mimicing Demon's shape and power.

You can provide all the solutions you want, but the facts talk for themselves - Demon Hunters took the Warlock's Metamorphosis. And it wouldn't have been so if there was no connection between the two.

No I didn't. I made a statement that Wildhammer culture is different from Bronzebeards, as we seen in Cataclysm.

I don't need to ask how Wildhammers are defined, I already know their lore is greater and ill represented by Blizzard's official customizations. I also do not openly challenge their decision on the matter, merely illustrate that customizations that ill represent races are still considered official if Blizzard defines it that way.

And does it hinder your gameplay like Dark Ranger customizations hinder the ability to play a fully fledged Dark Ranger?

You are correct. You are not merely a Dark Ranger, yet a Dark Ranger this still represents.

Nothing you're saying changes the fact that Dark Ranger is still 100% being defined as a Hunter through these race customizations.

No other class gained a 'heritage armor' set for their class to look like Dark Rangers

What about Warden? Does it make you a Dark Warden when picking the Rogue class?
Are you a San'layn Blood caster when picking the Mage class?