Expertise or no for Arms PvE?

[Deleted]

26 Expertise. No less.

Lol, no.

"BRB capping expertise for very little gain, gimping my primary strength, crit stats"

[Kultahari]

Expertise cap fails for the following reasons:
1. Mortal Strike damage will be reduced next patch
2. Dodged and Parried attacks proc Overpower which will be far more prioritized than MS in the next patch
3. Critical Hits (especially on Overpower) will always keep your DPS in the green.

If you are currently expterise capped, remain to be so until next patch in order to take advantage of the OP Mortal Strike ability. But in the next few weeks anything between 20-24 expterise will suffice.

[Deleted]

Expertise cap fails for the following reasons:
1. Mortal Strike damage will be reduced next patch
2. Dodged and Parried attacks proc Overpower which will be far more prioritized than MS in the next patch
3. Critical Hits (especially on Overpower) will always keep your DPS in the green.

If you are currently expterise capped, remain to be so until next patch in order to take advantage of the OP Mortal Strike ability. But in the next few weeks anything between 20-24 expterise will suffice.

Actually next patch the value of expertise goes up.

The damage from live is not nerfed one bit, but assuming that MS will refresh the rend duration, a wellplayed armswarrior will be staying even more in Berserker over Battle, bumping the expertise value up even further.

[blahssat]

Actually next patch the value of expertise goes up.

The damage from live is not nerfed one bit, but assuming that MS will refresh the rend duration, a wellplayed armswarrior will be staying even more in Berserker over Battle, bumping the expertise value up even further.

Have you even looked at the sims for 4.1 ptr? Value of expertise is currently slightly below mastery. Now it's well below haste in 4.1, which is our current worst stat, and continues ot be a terrible stat in 4.1. Please stop spreading misinformation.

http://www.simulationcraft.org/

[Awnetu]

Have you even looked at the sims for 4.1 ptr? Value of expertise is currently slightly below mastery. Now it's well below haste in 4.1, which is our current worst stat, and continues ot be a terrible stat in 4.1. Please stop spreading misinformation.

http://www.simulationcraft.org/

Keep in mind that the Simcraft Arms setup doesn't use Berserker Stance except to do Recklessness, lowering the expertise values in that sim.

[Deleted]

Have you even looked at the sims for 4.1 ptr? Value of expertise is currently slightly below mastery. Now it's well below haste in 4.1, which is our current worst stat, and continues ot be a terrible stat in 4.1. Please stop spreading misinformation.

http://www.simulationcraft.org/

Incase you chose to ignore it; read the post from Awnetu.

[Troyzilla]

@troy
maybe your dps went up cause you took out your prio of haste
having mid range exp is nice, being able to cap it with lucky expt drops is wonderful, but not needed

"capping expertise does seem to be a SLIGHT dps increase." Yeah that's about what I said. I still feel like the vast majority of this forum doesn't even understand reasoning behind the haste/mastery build to be completely honest =/.

And also @smartaxe, the reason I capped SLIGHT is because it was literally maybe 100-500 dps, and that again could be due to better raid dps.

[jaimelannister]

Since cata the way I have played arms is str > haste > crit > mastery,

This is not right at all. Haste is BY FAR our worst stat, so it should be avoided at all costs.

[Troyzilla]

This is not right at all. Haste is BY FAR our worst stat, so it should be avoided at all costs.

Yeah I have no idea what I'm talking about, you're right.

Also @jaime, you are the reason why I said most of the people in this forum don't understand the logic, math, or even point of the haste/mastery build for arms dps.

[Awnetu]

Yeah I have no idea what I'm talking about, you're right.

Also @jaime, you are the reason why I said most of the people in this forum don't understand the logic, math, or even point of the haste/mastery build for arms dps.

Please enlighten us Troy, because, as of this moment, you are ranked on 2 fights for Arms dps, and I can't seem to wrap my brain around why you would use a Haste/Mastery build over the standard build. Mastery is good, there is no argument over that, but why would an Arms warrior want haste, and how does that really benefit them more than Crit? Your dps on the maloriak fight is inflated, its a fight that is very friendly towards Arms warriors, so using it to say, '..and here we go, pro build', doesn't work.

I'm actually really curious for this, as this build isn't thrown around on elitist jerks either(from my knowledge).

[blahssat]

lol @ showing maloriak fight to prove arms scales better with haste/mastery. There's already a plethora of raid damage that an arms can use for additional rage, provide enough rage for full rotation plus generous cleaving, and brostorming adds isn't affected by haste at all, plus theres a tiny ICD on mastery that prevents multiple procs at the same instant. If you had 100% mastery and you were brostorming 100 adds at the same time, you would still only see 1 mastery proc per second (since thats how fast bladestorm hits), plus whatever comes from autoattacks.

Haste is further devalued because slam suspends the swing timer (Though recent patches make it somewhat less hurtful on rage since it's cast time benefits from haste) and the only talent that plays off haste is Blood Frenzy, a 10% chance that your autoattack gives 20 free rage. Crit has 3 (!) talents that play off it: Deep Wounds, impale, and enrage. Mastery has two: Sudden Death and Deep Wounds, but DW is sort of a given. I'd personally have 10% more damage a good portion of the time than a couple extra heroic strikes over the course of a fight.

Just watched a portion of that fight, and warrior was doing pretty terrible.

Oh, also forgot. Haste is even further devalued because of Deadly Calm.

[Troyzilla]

lol @ showing maloriak fight to prove arms scales better with haste/mastery. There's already a plethora of raid damage that an arms can use for additional rage, provide enough rage for full rotation plus generous cleaving, and brostorming adds isn't affected by haste at all, plus theres a tiny ICD on mastery that prevents multiple procs at the same instant. If you had 100% mastery and you were brostorming 100 adds at the same time, you would still only see 1 mastery proc per second (since thats how fast bladestorm hits), plus whatever comes from autoattacks.

Haste is further devalued because slam suspends the swing timer (Though recent patches make it somewhat less hurtful on rage since it's cast time benefits from haste) and the only talent that plays off haste is Blood Frenzy, a 10% chance that your autoattack gives 20 free rage. Crit has 3 (!) talents that play off it: Deep Wounds, impale, and enrage. Mastery has two: Sudden Death and Deep Wounds, but DW is sort of a given. I'd personally have 10% more damage a good portion of the time than a couple extra heroic strikes over the course of a fight.

Just watched a portion of that fight, and warrior was doing pretty terrible.

Oh, also forgot. Haste is even further devalued because of Deadly Calm.

"Just watched a portion of that fight, and warrior was doing pretty terrible." Funny, because at the time of that kill it was #2 arms world, with Enk of Inner Sanctum being the only higher parse.



"Please enlighten us Troy, because, as of this moment, you are ranked on 2 fights for Arms dps, and I can't seem to wrap my brain around why you would use a Haste/Mastery build over the standard build."

Maybe that's because I haven't raided in 2 months, but a 2 month old standing parse clearly means I'm bad.

[Awnetu]

I'm not attacking you, I'm asking a question. It doesn't make sense to me. You said this forum cant understand the math behind it, Im asking you to elaborate on your gearing strategy.

I have 2 month old ranked parses that haven't been removed yet, I'm finding it odd that being 2nd place, you would get pushed out so far, especially since mine is on a normal fight and yours is a heroic kill.

[Deleted]

"Just watched a portion of that fight, and warrior was doing pretty terrible." Funny, because at the time of that kill it was #2 arms world, with Enk of Inner Sanctum being the only higher parse.



"Please enlighten us Troy, because, as of this moment, you are ranked on 2 fights for Arms dps, and I can't seem to wrap my brain around why you would use a Haste/Mastery build over the standard build."

Maybe that's because I haven't raided in 2 months, but a 2 month old standing parse clearly means I'm bad.

Stop tooting your own horn and being arrogant about it; Gratulations you got a rank.

Now prove to us why your way of gearing is superior or "get the fuck out".

[jaimelannister]

Yeah I have no idea what I'm talking about, you're right.

Also @jaime, you are the reason why I said most of the people in this forum don't understand the logic, math, or even point of the haste/mastery build for arms dps.

Color me unimpressed. Heroic Maloriak for an Arms Warrior...

[Pope]

No, 26 Expertise is not "required" for Arms DPS. I'm no expert on the stat math, however I personally, and other Warriors from my guild, have found that reforging for the soft Expertise cap results in overall lower DPS than going for max Crit.

Please, what the fuck is the "softcap" for expertise. You either have 0 or 26. There's no soft cap between.

[breric]

Please, what the fuck is the "softcap" for expertise. You either have 0 or 26. There's no soft cap between.

For boss-level mobs (which are calculated as your level + 3) the soft cap is 6.5% dodge or 26 expertise (781 expertise rating), and the hard cap is 14% parry or 56 expertise (1682 expertise rating). Melee DPS classes will usually focus on the soft cap, since bosses cannot Parry when attacked from behind.

[Pope]

For boss-level mobs the soft cap is 6.5% dodge or 26 expertise, and the hard cap is 14% parry or 56 expertise. Melee DPS classes will usually focus on the soft cap, since bosses cannot Parry when attacked from behind.

you did see, that I talked about 26, not 56.
I assumed that the guy I quoted was talking about a magical number between 0 and 26 that could be a softcap.

[ChildeRoland]

Becauseee I'll give you cookies and beer

Lol.. really because I prefer the popular opinion and because you know the EJ warrior forums are horribly set.

Awesome, but like should I be reforging to expertise like if it were a must have?

Hit + Haste = reforge haste->crit
hit + expertise/mastery = reforge exp./mastery->crit
hit + crit = don't reforge unless above hit cap.
crit + mastery = no need to reforge
crit + exp. = no need to reforge
crit + haste = reforge haste -> expertise or mastery
mastery + expertise = reforge one of the two into crit
mastery + haste = reforge haste -> crit
exp. + haste = reforge haste -> crit.

Think this should cover the most.

[Charge me Doctor]

just soft cap expertise, you don't want to lose lambs of a slayer buff due to dodged mortal strike on *insert here name of the phase where you have to run ~10 seconds not in melee range of boss* or execute haste buff, or colosus smash.

And about haste, if you want to use heroic strike more, stack haste. If you feel rage starved, stack haste. Blizz buffed this stat for melee classes, so, you can "do stuff often" and it doesn't wasted stat, if you have little uptime on boss, you have more profit from it because you can do more hits for a time window