Anti High End Mentality

[VinceVega]

Hi guys (and girls)

i am curious: The whole Anti-LFR stuff simmered down a bit with BFA as no one is forced to run lower tiers anymore to get tier sets and legendaries and stuff like this anymore.

But what i now see everywhere are people blaming top end raiders and key pusher for "destroying" WoW or taking to much of the development.
And that part i don't get. WoW basically has something for everyone right now.
If you want to just experience the game you can do any piece of content in the game without ever having to actively engage with anyone. If you want to have bit of a challenge you can to rated PvP, Keys and normal/heroic raiding. If you want to really challenge your skills you can do all of that in a even higher tier.

The only difference is the Ilvl-height of the rewards and some small pieces of rewards you can only get int he highest one. Like a special mount at the end of it or the mythic sets which are nearly the same as the other ones.
But most of the game is still doable alone or with minimal effort. Some grinds. Which, lets face it, is just a MMO mechanic you will never get rid off. You get showered in rewards so you don't have to raid or do any of that content if yo don't want to.

How does top end content affect you any bad way? I cannot wrap my head around it.

Please be respectful as i know people get quite emotional with this topic (as do I)

[PenguinChan]

You weren't required to do that with LFR even when it was beneficial, either. It really mattered only to the try-hard guilds and actually skilled top end raiders / M+ runners.

But anyways, it's Blizzard's designs that fuel these kind of debates way more than anything else. Criticize the game designers, not the players in the (majority) of cases.

[Mirishka]

Hi guys (and girls)

i am curious: The whole Anti-LFR stuff simmered down a bit with BFA as no one is forced to run lower tiers anymore to get tier sets and legendaries and stuff like this anymore.

But what i now see everywhere are people blaming top end raiders and key pusher for "destroying" WoW or taking to much of the development.
And that part i don't get. WoW basically has something for everyone right now.
If you want to just experience the game you can do any piece of content in the game without ever having to actively engage with anyone. If you want to have bit of a challenge you can to rated PvP, Keys and normal/heroic raiding. If you want to really challenge your skills you can do all of that in a even higher tier.

The only difference is the Ilvl-height of the rewards and some small pieces of rewards you can only get int he highest one. Like a special mount at the end of it or the mythic sets which are nearly the same as the other ones.
But most of the game is still doable alone or with minimal effort. Some grinds. Which, lets face it, is just a MMO mechanic you will never get rid off. You get showered in rewards so you don't have to raid or do any of that content if yo don't want to.

How does top end content affect you any bad way? I cannot wrap my head around it.

Please be respectful as i know people get quite emotional with this topic (as do I)

Have some free advice: stop giving a shit what random people whine about.

"Oh my gosh people on the interwebs said raiding is bad!" Like, who cares? According to the internet, everything sucks. So don't get so caught up in other people's opinions.

[Devilyaki]

Everything to do with M+ esport. Do people even run anything under m+ for five mans any more?

[VinceVega]

Everything to do with M+ esport. Do people even run anything under m+ for five mans any more?

Did they ever? I have never set foot into a 5man after leveling before Mythic+. Was no reason to.

[Redroniksre]

I don't specifically blame raiders at all, there are plenty who do so for fun and just enjoy themselves. I don't think WoW has been ruined, rather i think progress has been stagnated, and slowed compared to other market MMOs. Every modern MMO out there right now allows multiple stages of progress, but all leading to the same end goal. Hell the closest to WoW (FFXIV) the difference between someone doing queued content and someone doing the highest level is only small ilvl difference. WoW is slowly starting to arrive there, but it gets fought every step of the way by the min-max -i feel forced to do it- community who try to shit on any piece of content that doesn't follow rigorous, homogenized, balance.

Hell, i am not going to say that the WoW team is perfect at balance, but one of the things this game has lacked is things having more identity to them. And one cannot achieve perfect balance without homogenizing everything and removing that identity. What i want for the game is for every path to be viable, for solo, small group, and raiders to hit the same end point (just at different speeds). The min-max community (as i have seen so far) is against this, so those are who i blame for stagnating -my- personal view of where the game should go.

[Mirishka]

Did they ever? I have never set foot into a 5man after leveling before Mythic+. Was no reason to.

Timewalking, transmog, mounts, pets, and achievements/meta-achievements say hi.

[Ange]

How does top end content affect you any bad way? I cannot wrap my head around it.

Nobody really cares for top-end content in a casual MMO like WoW. Why do you even think for a second, that the casual social gamer even cares about what a no-lifer child/jobless is doing in this game?

If game changes happen to hit everyone else for the reasons of the top 1%, it will allways cause a shitstorm.

The amount of dead hardcore-MMO's out there should be a clear sign what is "destroying" a game and what keeps it alive for 15+ years. Emotions and opinions outweigh facts in social media, good thing Blizzard kept the social media exposure as small as it gets, so they did not have to deal with it that much. Imagine WoW's timeline, if the Devs listened to the community in 2004.

[willtron]

Its a bit of a paradox, the majority of wow players are absolute potatos or don't have time to raid but the cutting edge pushing content types are a very small percentage of the population, so who do you appease?

I think the current system is good, the main thing for blizzard is retaining subs. They aren't going to retain subs by keeping raiding as some precious elite thing and denying a large population of the game the experience and the time spent on those zones.

Reality for me is, LFR doesn't affect mythic, mythic doesn't affect LFR, they're two seperate thing, either camp complaining about the other needs to keep it in perspective. Mythic raiders are such a vocal minorty.

[Revamp Man]

The new argument is that without random power increases in gear the only way to get better gear is raiding and high end content

But ppl are used to killing a boar with a random chance at getting powerful gear beyond what was normally available

Take that away and they feel punished like blizzard is taking away their toys....but everyone is actually effected

They don’t like ppl able to hit an end point because that means they hit an end point

Essentially they want big bad gear for nothing and blame raiders claiming WoD 2.0

[VinceVega]

Timewalking, transmog, mounts, pets, and achievements/meta-achievements say hi.

True. But all of this still exists.

[Revamp Man]

Nobody really cares for top-end content in a casual MMO like WoW. Why do you even think for a second, that the casual social gamer even cares about what a no-lifer child/jobless is doing in this game?

If game changes happen to hit everyone else for the reasons of the top 1%, it will allways cause a shitstorm.

The amount of dead hardcore-MMO's out there should be a clear sign what is "destroying" a game and what keeps it alive for 15+ years. Emotions and opinions outweigh facts in social media, good thing Blizzard kept the social media exposure as small as it gets, so they did not have to deal with it that much. Imagine WoW's timeline, if the Devs listened to the community in 2004.

The thing is wow is not catering to the top end but this new expansion is being called the next warlords because everything is being done for Raiders simply because of the fact that there’s going to be static gear

- - - Updated - - -

True. But all of this still exists.

Literally the complaints right now just boils down to people being angry over the removal of titan forging

And people being angry because anything that the top and likes is a bad thing I guess

[VinceVega]

Nobody really cares for top-end content in a casual MMO like WoW. Why do you even think for a second, that the casual social gamer even cares about what a no-lifer child/jobless is doing in this game?

If game changes happen to hit everyone else for the reasons of the top 1%, it will allways cause a shitstorm.

The amount of dead hardcore-MMO's out there should be a clear sign what is "destroying" a game and what keeps it alive for 15+ years. Emotions and opinions outweigh facts in social media, good thing Blizzard kept the social media exposure as small as it gets, so they did not have to deal with it that much. Imagine WoW's timeline, if the Devs listened to the community in 2004.

There goes the respectful i guess?

I am a Mythic raider with a good job and family as are most of the people in my guild. That or Students.
I tend to go back and forth every expansion from casual to Mythic raiding. But in no means hardcore.

And the changes you mentioned are not really "just for the 1%".
Why do you think wow is a hardcore game? I really don't see it that way. I think it is rather casual overall.

And that "shitstomr" you mentioned is exactly what is confusing me. What changes did wow do that affected everyone to appease the top 1%. (symbolic number)

[Devilyaki]

Did they ever? I have never set foot into a 5man after leveling before Mythic+. Was no reason to.

Use to be were pre raid loot was, achievements and such. Now yes beside a quick run to level they are pointless. Wq loot started it and m+ sealed the coffin.

[VinceVega]

But really it seems on this forum, the 1% are the ppl causing a shitstorm. For that "casual" majority who does NOT raid high end or pushes high mythic key, it should not matter how closely balanced covenant abilities are. Yet we keep getting these threads how "everyone" will chose only the "best" covenant for their specc after Icy Veins or some guild like Method has figured out what it is.

(In reality I believe ppl will indeed mostly chose by aesthetics or RP)

I agree with that i rather have the RP parts, but it seems that more than just the top end does not like the way the abilities are handled. I don't mind either way.

[Saltysquidoon]

But what i now see everywhere are people blaming top end raiders and key pusher for "destroying" WoW or taking to much of the development.
And that part i don't get. WoW basically has something for everyone right now.

I mean what can you say? casual shitters are going to casual shitter? It's not like this hasn't been a discussion in WoW since the dawn of time, what do you think EJ was called Elitist Jerks?
People get mad at prog players pushing content but are happy to use guides (I don't believe for a second, most players don't use guides for their talents at a minimum) and sims those players generate

Did they ever? I have never set foot into a 5man after leveling before Mythic+. Was no reason to.

I mean badge gear, gearing alts and just generally gearing before the first raid tier.

You weren't required to do that with LFR even when it was beneficial, either. It really mattered only to the try-hard guilds and actually skilled top end raiders / M+ runners.

But what's tryhard though? Best in your guild? Best guild on your server? Best guild in your region? Top100? Top10? Literally only world first guilds?

Simply saying you don't 'have' to play optimally I think is just a fundamental denial that the core of WoW is and always has been optimisation in one form or another. Even the most casual shitter soccer mum that only plays pet battles still wants to on a fundamental level succeed in that task and will take the steps they feel are 'necessary' to achieve that sucess

I think the current system is good, the main thing for blizzard is retaining subs. They aren't going to retain subs by keeping raiding as some precious elite thing and denying a large population of the game the experience and the time spent on those zones.

You can't really deny the game had more subs before lfr. Sure you can make the argument lfr was a response to sub drop not the cause of it but you can't be sure either way. By the same token you can't be sure lfr is retaining subs.

[VinceVega]

Use to be were pre raid loot was, achievements and such. Now yes beside a quick run to level they are pointless. Wq loot started it and m+ sealed the coffin.

The pre raid loot still exists. At the start of the expansion. An even more now as they bump up the Ilvl you get from heroics halfway through the expansion. But yeah, you can get them otherwise (i do) but you could do heroics if you wanted to to equip yourself. Maybe even faster as WQ scale with your Ilvl, heroic Ilvl stays the same.

[Flurryfang]

Hi guys (and girls)

i am curious: The whole Anti-LFR stuff simmered down a bit with BFA as no one is forced to run lower tiers anymore to get tier sets and legendaries and stuff like this anymore.

But what i now see everywhere are people blaming top end raiders and key pusher for "destroying" WoW or taking to much of the development.
And that part i don't get. WoW basically has something for everyone right now.
If you want to just experience the game you can do any piece of content in the game without ever having to actively engage with anyone. If you want to have bit of a challenge you can to rated PvP, Keys and normal/heroic raiding. If you want to really challenge your skills you can do all of that in a even higher tier.

The only difference is the Ilvl-height of the rewards and some small pieces of rewards you can only get int he highest one. Like a special mount at the end of it or the mythic sets which are nearly the same as the other ones.
But most of the game is still doable alone or with minimal effort. Some grinds. Which, lets face it, is just a MMO mechanic you will never get rid off. You get showered in rewards so you don't have to raid or do any of that content if yo don't want to.

How does top end content affect you any bad way? I cannot wrap my head around it.

Please be respectful as i know people get quite emotional with this topic (as do I)

I think the idea behind the arguments, that either low or high tier players ruin the game, is that the game becomes designed around them. When you can easily get things, it caters to low tier. If it requires a lot to get things, it caters to high tier. No game has an equal balance in this and WoW has switched many times between the 2 extremes.

So yeah, the top end content can have a bad effect on the average player, if those players feels like they are missing out of too much value/content by not using X amount of time or not breaking into high tier content.

But in my own opinion, i haven't actually heard about anybody complaining about the top end players ruining the game. Would love to hear, what the arguements are, that you refer to

[potis]

There goes the respectful i guess?

I am a Mythic raider with a good job and family as are most of the people in my guild. That or Students.
I tend to go back and forth every expansion from casual to Mythic raiding. But in no means hardcore.

And the changes you mentioned are not really "just for the 1%".
Why do you think wow is a hardcore game? I really don't see it that way. I think it is rather casual overall.

And that "shitstomr" you mentioned is exactly what is confusing me. What changes did wow do that affected everyone to appease the top 1%. (symbolic number)

Because these people do not have the ability to micromanage, min/max and actually do things correctly to understand how casual the game is, so anyone that can actually do that and play casually and still do half-decent things, must not have a job, must not have anything, just playing 24/7, when in reality if you are playing WoW in a competent environment, it doesnt require much time at all.

Not everyone functions the same way, its easier to complain about things than actually try to get better.

There isnt any clear answer to your question because its not one category of people, but many different ones.

They are also a loud minority, especially on here.

The actual casuals dont care whats happening with the game, they are just playing.

Its the low tier players that are the loudest, as its the middle tier players that are the most toxic as example.

Generally what i have noticed these last 15 years of WoW, the loudest complainers are the ones that dont understand their own skill level and how lackster they actually are and they dont deserve to get any more gear than they are getting.

There isnt anything worse than those players, and as someone in the thread called them, the majority of the players are literally potatoes.

[kamuimac]

The new argument is that without random power increases in gear the only way to get better gear is raiding and high end content

But ppl are used to killing a boar with a random chance at getting powerful gear beyond what was normally available

Take that away and they feel punished like blizzard is taking away their toys....but everyone is actually effected

They don’t like ppl able to hit an end point because that means they hit an end point

Essentially they want big bad gear for nothing and blame raiders claiming WoD 2.0

and they are correct.

im just gonna wait few months and enjoy the sh..tstorm that will happen on forums

and this expansion will be indeed rememeberd as WoD 2.0 unless they bring back VP gear .