LFR -> Flex -> Normal -> Heroic: Why?

[Glorious Leader]

just.... stahp
pls

Why? IS it that hard for you to accept that mists isn't very casual friendly? The developers said it themselves, they struggled with casual engagement. It strikes me that most reasonable and likely reason is in fact because mists is not very engaging for casuals.

[SinisterAUS]

Numbers don't agree with this. I'll let the usual crowd explain the specifics but there were LESS guilds killing a single boss in T15 than killed a single boss in T14, so therefore there were a couple of thousand (I want to say 3000 but don't remember) guilds that just disappeared/gave up raiding at all between T14 and T15 (the guild I was in at the start of Mists being one of them, giving up at the start of T14 due to a variety of issues). The number of guilds that have cleared normal mode has plummeted.

Oh okay, sorry I think I went full retard there, I didn't see the wowprogress numbers.

Luckily flex is in for those guilds that get stuck on bosses like horridon, Elegon and Garalon I guess.

[Komati]

I doubt I'll do much LFR next tier. Was forced to do it in the current and last to get the god damn runestones and whatnot.

[Deleted]

Why? IS it that hard for you to accept that mists isn't very casual friendly?

what ?!

http://<b>http://www.polygon.com/201...the-casual</b>
Mists of Pandaria was the first push to appeal to more casual players and it was very successful

From the horseshit's mouth, literally

'Casuals' got / Casual-Friendly stuff implemented in MoP, specifically for that kind of gaming :
- Easier 5 man heroics
- LFR
- (NEW!) Scenarios
- (NEW!) Heroic Scenarios
- (NEW!) Barrens : Weekly quest with easy bosses
- (NEW!) Lorewalkers quest / rep / flypath < oh a free mount
- So-many-dailies-you-can't-run-out-of-shiz-to-do
- (NEW!) Farmville, with dailies around it
- (NEW!) Cooking profession levelling; for stats you'll never need on your char
- (NEW!) Pet fking Battles
- (NEW!) Challenge Modes (arguably for casuals, i'd argue they are in any case)
- (NEW!) Taggable world bosses so you can benefit without even being in a group.
- Cross Realm Zones to help you when you got no friends online.
...

'Hardcores' or 'Raiders' or whatever you wanna call them got :
- (OLD) A Raid.
- (NEW) An aweful new system to trinkets that no one likes : RPPM

Yes, you are correct, nothing in MoP was designed for casuals, and it's the most hardcore expac ever. lawl.

[Caliph]

Before I rant --- I love the idea of flex - I think it should be implemented for all difficulty levels.

I hate having multiple difficulty levels. Does anybody seriously enjoy killing the same damn boss 100+ times per tier?

Solution: One difficulty (heroic) with flex. Every month, any bosses that have been killed by at least 100 different guilds take a 10% nerf. Top end guilds can still push for rankings without worry, and the casuals can still see all content before next tier, and EVERYBODY gets excited when they kill a boss (if anybody even remembers that feeling)....

And who cares about perfectly balancing flex --- let the top end guilds play around with the numbers & compositions themselves.

In the future when you design your own game and sell it watch how poorly it does. What percentage of people do heroic raids? How many clear normal, and then compare both of them to LFR players. People play what they want to play. You're not forced to do all 4. So quick clear normal and go do your heroics and leave everyone else to do lfr, flex, normal and if they want heroics.

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what ?!



From the horseshit's mouth, literally

'Casuals' got / Casual-Friendly stuff implemented in MoP, specifically for that kind of gaming :
- Easier 5 man heroics
- LFR
- (NEW!) Scenarios
- (NEW!) Heroic Scenarios
- (NEW!) Barrens : Weekly quest with easy bosses
- (NEW!) Lorewalkers quest / rep / flypath < oh a free mount
- So-many-dailies-you-can't-run-out-of-shiz-to-do
- (NEW!) Farmville, with dailies around it
- (NEW!) Cooking profession levelling; for stats you'll never need on your char
- (NEW!) Pet fking Battles
- (NEW!) Challenge Modes (arguably for casuals, i'd argue they are in any case)
- (NEW!) Taggable world bosses so you can benefit without even being in a group.
- Cross Realm Zones to help you when you got no friends online.
...

'Hardcores' or 'Raiders' or whatever you wanna call them got :
- (OLD) A Raid.
- (NEW) An aweful new system to trinkets that no one likes : RPPM

Yes, you are correct, nothing in MoP was designed for casuals, and it's the most hardcore expac ever. lawl.

Why doesn't a casual need cooking stats? if they're doing 50 daily quests and taggable bosses, with lfr and such thrown in, wouldn't they need those stats?

And what's wrong with taggable bosses. It's a core mechanic in mmos now. Oh wait the mmo designers are all wrong and you're right? That's the first time i've seen someone whine about taggable bosses. wow. you win.

i know 3 top end guilds on my server who all pet fucking battle. i don't and can't believe it's even in still. such a waste. but no to all those hardcores.

And what hardcore or casual do you know that didn't do all of those daily quests or pick up a free mount? we were all pretty much forced to do them. Which isn't really a casual definition.

You should go find a hardcore game that caters to you and your like. Perhaps EQ1 might suit. Cuz no one is making games for you these days.

[Deleted]

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Why doesn't a casual need cooking stats? if they're doing 50 daily quests and taggable bosses, with lfr and such thrown in, wouldn't they need those stats?

Well thanks for the animosity! Jeez, nice to meet you pal

Firstly, I never said, for example as you claim i did, that casuals shouldn't have cooking stats ! Where did you get that.
The things I listed are features that have been implemtented for casuals to have thigns to do. That is all. It's not 'if you do this you are casual' type thing, rather, these are the things you could do as a casual, and that have specifically been impletemented to add content of a casual nature. It doesn't mean heroic raiders don't do them, it just means they don't NEED to do them. Hence making them casual and not heroic.

The things I listed in Heroic are things implemented in MoP that are fundamental hardcore gaming. Ie, if you are hardcore gaming, you are doing / using one of these features. Sure some hardcores pet battle. Good for them ! It is none the less, a feature that was implemented for the casual crowd.

And what's wrong with taggable bosses. It's a core mechanic in mmos now. Oh wait the mmo designers are all wrong and you're right? That's the first time i've seen someone whine about taggable bosses. wow. you win.

I'm just saying, it's a feature that was implemented not for the organised raider, but for the casual (who doesnt have a group and just arrives to help out etc). The benefit to the casual is huge, to the hardcore virtually non existant.

i know 3 top end guilds on my server who all pet fucking battle. i don't and can't believe it's even in still. such a waste. but no to all those hardcores.

And what hardcore or casual do you know that didn't do all of those daily quests or pick up a free mount? we were all pretty much forced to do them. Which isn't really a casual definition.

ERm, were you forced to get Lorewalkers mount to be hardcore raider ? No, not by any means. No one was forced to do em. Hell, I don't even have it because i can't be arsed to fly around a map according to wowhead just to have a mount everyone has. No benefit.

You should go find a hardcore game that caters to you and your like. Perhaps EQ1 might suit. Cuz no one is making games for you these days.

Thanks for your advice! Really usefull. And mature ! There are more games you could have mentioned though.

[Gsara]

Its mind boggling to hear people say normal mode is over tuned and to hard. It even more mind boggling hearing people say MoP didnt do anything for casual players when the entire expansion was built for super casual play. The only thing they could do to make anything faster is mail you epics.

[Deleted]

Just because this x-pac has LFr doesn't make it "casual" friendly. I definitely had more alts at max lv (and in better gear) in WotLK. Raiding participation was also quite high (in theory) during WotLK because they had weekly raidquests and a finaly raid that got a 30% playerbuff eventually.

Not just LFR. Scenarios (N and HC), 5 mans easier than cata, quests all over the shop, trove, rares, keys, even timeless isles in next patch ... (read my post above, with a basic list) Seriously, you have no leg to stand on when trying to support that MoP was not casual-focused. Even the devs said it. Need link ? Check a few posts above.

Regarding levelling : They also cut of 30% of the exp needed to get a char to max lvl after a few months.

Just FYI, regarding your wotlk comparison :
- There are still weekly quests in raids today, fyi
- There is the 30% player buff in place, today. It's called item upgrade. It was put in place specificially to have you gain power over time, without nerfing the instance or buffing you by 30% with a straight up buff.

[Nobleshield]

MoP was "casual focused" but they focused on the wrong things. Part of the inevitability is the shift from big raids being the primary endgame to small group content, the concept of the Nightmare Dungeon. LFR is a shift in the wrong direction because it was meant to FORCE people into raiding, albeit a declawed version, instead of shifting AWAY from raiding as the primary endgame content.

Mark my words, the future of MMOs in general isn't going to be the Everquest style of massive raids, it's going to be primarily small group content with meaningful progression, instead of small group content as a stepping stone to large group content. Scenarios were a step in the right direction, but not enough yet and need to be expanded upon as alternate paths, not just quick points and a small chance at a pretty much worthless piece of badly-itemized loot.

[Glorious Leader]

what ?!



From the horseshit's mouth, literally

'Casuals' got / Casual-Friendly stuff implemented in MoP, specifically for that kind of gaming :
- Easier 5 man heroics With ZERO or little casual progression. Ultimately not casual friendly in the larger scope of things
- LFR Also not casual friendly. Spend an hour in que to spend 2-3 hours in raids for a bag of gold.
- (NEW!) Scenarios Ghetto content with no serious character progression (i.e LOOT) behind it
- (NEW!) Heroic Scenarios Same as above but only with the added bonus that you need to spame lfg for god knows how long on your shitty server for people
- (NEW!) Barrens : Weekly quest with easy bosses Once again very limited character advancement here
- (NEW!) Lorewalkers quest / rep / flypath < oh a free mount More ghetto content
- So-many-dailies-you-can't-run-out-of-shiz-to-do Dailies are not very casual friendly. Miss a day and well you miss that day. One more day behind with no catch up. In fact dailies are far more hardcore friendly. Players who are hardcore and play more than 20 hours a week love that shit. It gives them "something to do". Casuals hate that shit. They want to be DONE.
- (NEW!) Farmville, with dailies around it Same as above
- (NEW!) Cooking profession levelling; for stats you'll never need on your char Hardcores want this to. Needing the stats is cute to. You don't need the gear with all the stats to kill bosses either but I guess you're terrible and you do.
- (NEW!) Pet fking Battles Ghetto content with no real character advancement behind it
- (NEW!) Challenge Modes (arguably for casuals, i'd argue they are in any case) Not casual friendly and also no gear or little character progression behind them
- (NEW!) Taggable world bosses so you can benefit without even being in a group. Benefits everybody not just casuals
- Cross Realm Zones to help you when you got no friends online. Same as above
...

'Hardcores' or 'Raiders' or whatever you wanna call them got :
- (OLD) A Raid.
- (NEW) An aweful new system to trinkets that no one likes : RPPM
- (NEW) A focus on raiding as the only content this expansion or only serious content being developed. I.e No more new dungeons
-(NEW) The outright nerfing and ultimate REMOVAL of instant catch up methods that worked so good in Cata. Hardcore demands to feel "fair".
-(NEW) Lack of decent alternatives to raiding for gearing up. Presumably done to give hardcore players more to do and to help with the shift and focus to raiding as premier content
-(NEW) Harder and more complex normal/heroic raids leaving more and more players out in the cold. Meeting hardcore demands for increasing challenge and complexity


Yes, you are correct, nothing in MoP was designed for casuals, and it's the most hardcore expac ever. lawl.

Responses in Bold and I added a few to the hardcore section of what you wrote. Most of what you wrote is ghetto content the developers sent out and then turned around and claimed OHN LOOK CASUAL. The developers also said in a tweet they tried for a more vanilla feel in terms of gearing and catch up but with more options. Nobody I know (hardcore or casual) buys that. Mists is NOT CASUAL FRIENDLY even if they say it is. It will be casual friendly once again when they provide alternative means of character advancement that don't shove me into raiding at every opportunity. It will be casual friendly when I don't have to spend umpteenth numbers of hours to get anything done in this game.

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Even the devs said it.

Once again the developers said they also tried for a more vanilla feel in terms of catch up but with more options. DO you agree? I"m sure I can find all sorts of dev statements that you simple feel are wrong and in this case the statement you quoted is WRONG. It's important to take the devs at their word but their word should be met with challlenge and the statement you quoted doesn't meet up with the reality of the game.

As for the item upgrade I find it pretty funny that even with item upgrades they STILL had to nerf ToT THREE TIMES. The instance STILL had to be nerfed.

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Its mind boggling to hear people say normal mode is over tuned and to hard. It even more mind boggling hearing people say MoP didnt do anything for casual players when the entire expansion was built for super casual play. The only thing they could do to make anything faster is mail you epics.

If it was actually built for super casual player then we'd still have more dungeons and less raids. Understand shoving everybody into raiding is NOT VERY CASUAL FRIENDLY. The systems implemented give you the surface appearance of being casual friendly but the underlying design goals and principles are simple NOT casual friendly.

[Deleted]

I dont even know how people can argue that MoP is not the most casual friendly expansion ever.

[Glorious Leader]

I dont even know how people can argue that MoP is not the most casual friendly expansion ever.

Because it's not. Look the developers or their business representatives also said that the game struggled with casual engagement this expansion. Maybe just maybe that's because it's not very casual friendly or engaging for them. That seems to me to be the most reasonable explanation. In fact it's practically a tautology. Mists of pandaria suffered from casual engagement problems because it's not very engaging for casuals.

[Deleted]

Because it's not. Look the developers or their business representatives also said that the game struggled with casual engagement this expansion. Maybe just maybe that's because it's not very casual friendly or engaging for them. That seems to me to be the most reasonable explanation. In fact it's practically a tautology. Mists of pandaria suffered from casual engagement problems because it's not very engaging for casuals.

I think the problem this expansion with the casual engagement is that they overwhelmed the casuals. There is simply too much casual oriented content that if you want to do it all, it becomes a bit time consuming. Basically everything in MoP is directed to the casuals.

[Glorious Leader]

I think the problem this expansion with the casual engagement is that they overwhelmed the casuals. There is simply too much casual oriented content that if you want to do it all, it becomes a bit time consuming. Basically everything in MoP is directed to the casuals.

Right. That's much more likely and reasonable than mists of pandaria ISN"T actually designed to be engaging for casuals hence it isn't engaging for casuals. They didn't overwhelm shit. None of the ghetto content they threw at casuals had any real character progression behind it and casuals while casual are not stupid. They didn't buy it. You want casual focus? Bring back dungeons with catch up gear and let me buy tier pieces from valor. Hell let me buy any relevant current gear with valor. Next patch that's going BYE BYE. If raiders cry or people forsake raiding OH WELL. I don't get how you can say this expansion is casual friendly when raiding (potentially the least casual friendly experience in the game) has been made the overwhelming focus. It's shitty for casuals especially because theirs no alternative to getting gear at a certain ilvl outside of raiding. It's all about raiding. Raiding is NOT casual friendly, even lfr.

[Nobleshield]

That's the thing. In a game where the devs basically say that raiding is what everyone should aspire to, then tossing "casuals" a bone with stuff that doesn't really help them progress their character, or alternatively forcing them to indulge in raid-like activities (i.e. LFR) isn't making things casual friendly, it's putting a ton of near-useless content in there and saying it's for casuals.

[clevin]

You guys might want to define what you each mean by 'casual'.

[Glorious Leader]

That's the thing. In a game where the devs basically say that raiding is what everyone should aspire to, then tossing "casuals" a bone with stuff that doesn't really help them progress their character, or alternatively forcing them to indulge in raid-like activities (i.e. LFR) isn't making things casual friendly, it's putting a ton of near-useless content in there and saying it's for casuals.

It's all a front. Once you dig deep enough you understand that while they may have implement ghetto content for the casuals, systems that have no real character progression behind them you understand that the decisions made were all made for hardcores to preserve their favorite form of content. It's a shell game. If they actually engaged casuals, by creating systems that had character progression that were casual friendly then well nobody would do raids or lfr or fewer people would.

So shove everybody into raiding, create some BS useless content that awards little to no serious character progression (especially at levels equalling or rivaling lfr/raiding) and then claim you've made the game casual friendly so next expansions hardcores get it all. I don't know. Maybe they thought casuals would be satisfied with less? They certainly weren't giving them more.

[DrSteveBrule]

I dont even know how people can argue that MoP is not the most casual friendly expansion ever.

It's called dillusion. The rampage of casualism only ends when rewards are met on demand with absolutely no time investment.
"1 hour is too long. I only have 20 minutes to play"
"No, fuck you. My wife has AIDS, I only have 10 minutes to play each day."
"You're not casual, I don't even play WoW, I should be able to get gear."

Joking aside, best to ignore people who honestly believe MoP isn't casual friendly.

[Fluorescent0]

It's all a front. Once you dig deep enough you understand that while they may have implement ghetto content for the casuals, systems that have no real character progression behind them you understand that the decisions made were all made for hardcores to preserve their favorite form of content. It's a shell game. If they actually engaged casuals, by creating systems that had character progression that were casual friendly then well nobody would do raids or lfr or fewer people would.

So shove everybody into raiding, create some BS useless content that awards little to no serious character progression (especially at levels equalling or rivaling lfr/raiding) and then claim you've made the game casual friendly so next expansions hardcores get it all. I don't know. Maybe they thought casuals would be satisfied with less? They certainly weren't giving them more.

Please, come up with your idea for a system that has meaningful progression for someone who plays a little while giving more to somebody who puts more effort in it.

[Glorious Leader]

Please, come up with your idea for a system that has meaningful progression for someone who plays a little while giving more to somebody who puts more effort in it.

Oh that's easy. It's called alts. That way the guy who plays little can have meaningful progression but the somebody who puts more effort into it can have alts to continue progression. Hell it's not like were asking for BiS or anything just a casual friendly alternative that provides as much character advancement as raiding does. They did that for years. Catch up dungeons and valor. Giving "more" to people who play for absurd amounts of time or play at absurd difficulties shouldn't be the developers concern since those people represent obvious minorities and obvious extremes. Ultimately that's damaging to keeping mass appeal and not sustainable anyway. You'll never keep the guy who plays 30 hours a week entertained on one toon.

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Joking aside, best to ignore people who honestly believe MoP isn't casual friendly.

Why? I guess that would also mean you ignore the Blizzards own business handlers who said as much? Why ignore people who are right? The only delusional ones are you and the developers unfortunately.