LFR -> Flex -> Normal -> Heroic: Why?

[Normie]

VP gear is the same ilevel, you just miss the set bonuses. If you aren't raiding you don't need them. It's still progression. You can get a good ilevel so you can molest quest mobs or whatever takes your fancy if you don't raid.

It's a complete no-brainer that you won't be geared as well as a hc raider which I suspect is the cut-off point that would satisfy you.

Edit: Actually I'm curious to know what would satisfy you? Genuine question.

In what way is VP gear that you get without raiding the same ilevel as raid gear?

I'm curious how you obtain more than one piece of 522 valor gear without stepping into a raid.

Also, as raiders are fond of pointing out, tier bonuses (at least the ones every other class has) are hugely powerful. And you can't get thunderforged valor gear. And you can't get heroic valor gear.

[ludibin]

I want "LFR -> Flex -> Normal -> Heroic -> Hardcore" ! ! ! !

As in Hardcore with "artifact gear - red colored"

[Normie]

And you know what? If you take time off, you might have to invest some time to catch up.

Yes, that certainly makes people want to come back to WoW. "Hmm, if I resub, I might get geared enough to play with my friends after a month, but they won't be doing anything interesting till the next patch by then. I guess I'll wait till the next patch."

[Glorious Leader]

And on the other hand, being able to catch up at will means that people have less incentive to stay for farm and whatnot. It's double-edged, really.

Some people will have less incentive. Should be clear we aren't talking about any large part of the games population. Just some people.

That really depends on if by "farm" you include heroic content. The ilvl difference between LFR and Heroic is 33 for this tier; and because of the horrendous exponential scaling at this point, the DPS difference between LFR gear and Heroic gear for some classes was literally more than double with BiS Thunderforged.

NM the gap between a fresh lvl 90 and BIS SoO guy. It's completely unnecessary.

[TheWindWalker]

And on the other hand, being able to catch up at will means that people have less incentive to stay for farm and whatnot. It's double-edged, really.

That really depends on if by "farm" you include heroic content. The ilvl difference between LFR and Heroic is 33 for this tier; and because of the horrendous exponential scaling at this point, the DPS difference between LFR gear and Heroic gear for some classes was literally more than double with BiS Thunderforged.

[Brodeo]

If heroic raiders enjoy wiping 100+ times of a boss each tier, I don't know why they wouldn't enjoy killing it as much.

Clearly you dont understand why people raid.

[Mormolyce]

Nope not even close. I mean pet battles are technically more casual friendly really so is brawlers guild but those activities award dick all for gear. Lvling is also insanely casual friendly relative to that (it takes no time to get started and is piss easy). Riading in every form is the least casual friendly activity in the game. Making it the focus of so much of warcrafts end game (while simultaneously curtailing and removing the alternative avenues of progression) has hurt the casual players ability to progress.

The argument made about VP is universal to warcraft LFR or not. The developers have seen fit to make raiding the premier content and anything and everything that takes away from that must be taken away or made to not be as good or as rewarding.

I really don't understand your argument, that has always been the case with raiding.

LFR made a shitload of content in the game more accessible for a huge slice of the playerbase. It's certainly casual friendly. And like you said, optional content like BG and pet battles are awesome additions that you can play all on your own with no commitment.

MoP is by far the most casual friendly (only competition would be DS in Cata really). It's not very alt friendly simply because THERE IS SO MUCH SHIT TO DO.

But you seem to have this mindless obsession with ilvl on VP gear and nothing else so I guess all that goes unnoticed by you.

Sometimes I think that the longer people play this game, the more narrow-minded and focused on just one part of the game they become.

[Manataurus]

I really don't understand your argument, that has always been the case with raiding.


MoP is by far the most casual friendly (only competition would be DS in Cata really). It's not very alt friendly simply because THERE IS SO MUCH SHIT TO DO.

It's because of this that it's so alt friendly. The only people that wouldn't think so are those that are obsessed with completing everything with every toon they make. For example I have a friend that got Loremaster on 3 different toons. To the players that usually roll an alt now, the increased options for gear and gameplay experiences is a very good thing.

[Glorious Leader]

I really don't understand your argument, that has always been the case with raiding.

LFR made a shitload of content in the game more accessible for a huge slice of the playerbase. It's certainly casual friendly. And like you said, optional content like BG and pet battles are awesome additions that you can play all on your own with no commitment.

MoP is by far the most casual friendly (only competition would be DS in Cata really). It's not very alt friendly simply because THERE IS SO MUCH SHIT TO DO.

But you seem to have this mindless obsession with ilvl on VP gear and nothing else so I guess all that goes unnoticed by you.

Sometimes I think that the longer people play this game, the more narrow-minded and focused on just one part of the game they become.

Actually no it wasn't always the case with raiding. People were skipping raids in favor of other content because the alternative to raiding (buying gear through valor) was awesome. MoP is not as casual friendly as cata or wotlk when you could skip raids (the least casual friendly content they have). Theirs isn't "so much shit to do" what's available simple takes more time then it did before.

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It's because of this that it's so alt friendly. The only people that wouldn't think so are those that are obsessed with completing everything with every toon they make. For example I have a friend that got Loremaster on 3 different toons. To the players that usually roll an alt now, the increased options for gear and gameplay experiences is a very good thing.

The increased options are largely a myth after a certain ilvl. Basically it's lfr and raiding and that's it.

[NeverStop]

Actually no it wasn't always the case with raiding. People were skipping raids in favor of other content because the alternative to raiding (buying gear through valor) was awesome. MoP is not as casual friendly as cata or wotlk when you could skip raids (the least casual friendly content they have). Theirs isn't "so much shit to do" what's available simple takes more time then it did before.

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The increased options are largely a myth after a certain ilvl. Basically it's lfr and raiding and that's it.

In 5.4, a fresh 90 can grind out a full set of 535 gear from Timeless Isle. How is getting Heroic ToT ilvl gear without any form of raiding not casual enough?

[Glorious Leader]

In 5.4, a fresh 90 can grind out a full set of 535 gear from Timeless Isle. How is getting Heroic ToT ilvl gear without any form of raiding not casual enough?

Is it as casual friendly and engaging as skipping raiding content but progressing to raid equivalent gear (including tier pieces)?

[Deja Thoris]

TO be honest players who aren't raiding probably need the set bonuses and that better gear more. I thought normal and hc raiders were the pinnacle of player ability? Your telling me you need gear now?

I'm sorry that logic doesn't fly. The only reason heroic raiders "need" heroic gear is to beat heroic raid encounters. Noone else "needs" it. Outside of heroic raids that gear is just a convenience that makes smacking random stuff easier.

[Glorious Leader]

I'm sorry that logic doesn't fly. The only reason heroic raiders "need" heroic gear is to beat heroic raid encounters. Noone else "needs" it. Outside of heroic raids that gear is just a convenience that makes smacking random stuff easier.

Paragon and method do it with minimal gear. I'm not saying that everyone is obviously paragon and method but the "need" clearly isn't an actual need. IT has never been and will never be about need. If it was they could simple scale your current gear the minute you walk into the raid. The least skilled among you doesn't need the gear but apparently the pros do. What a crock.

[Deleted]

Paragon and method do it with minimal gear. I'm not saying that everyone is obviously paragon and method but the "need" clearly isn't an actual need. IT has never been and will never be about need. If it was they could simple scale your current gear the minute you walk into the raid. The least skilled among you doesn't need the gear but apparently the pros do. What a crock.

Your daily quest mob is not gonna enrage after 15 minutes of attempting to kill it because you are undergeared.

[Deleted]

Your daily quest mob is not gonna enrage after 15 minutes of attempting to kill it because you are undergeared.

The usual argument you put forth when it's suggested the content i overtuned is "if other people can do it so, can you. Learn to play. If you aren't as good you must not want it enough."

So here it is, right back at you - if other people can do it, so can you. Learn to play. If you aren't as good as paragon and method, you just must not want it enough.

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In 5.4, a fresh 90 can grind out a full set of 535 gear from Timeless Isle. How is getting Heroic ToT ilvl gear without any form of raiding not casual enough?

Casual = not much time.

Grinding = takes a lot of time.

Not sure how the ability to get 1x535 item per week if you grind your balls off for hours is casual play.

[Deleted]

The usual argument you put forth when it's suggested the content i overtuned is "if other people can do it so, can you. Learn to play. If you aren't as good you must not want it enough."

So here it is, right back at you - if other people can do it, so can you. Learn to play. If you aren't as good as paragon and method, you just must not want it enough

The difference here though is that comparing heroic mode raids to say normal mode raids, only a few people in the world is good enough to beat it undergeared, they use a lot of class stacking to do so. Anyone with an usual brain activity and their grandmothers can complete normal mode raids. It is not really a fair comparison.
Saying that "If you are not as good and put in the same amount of effort like the best people in the world, you dont want it enough", hardly seems comparable to "You are not as good as someone playing with 1 hand while eating his dinner with the other and watches a TV-Series on the second monitor, then you probably dont want it enough".

The difference in there is quite significant in my opinion. If you then consider the difficulty level of doing daily quests that even an infant could do, it becomes an even bigger difference. I have never in my life heard anyone say "I need higher item level to do dailies".

Casual = not much time.

Grinding = takes a lot of time.

Not sure how the ability to get 1x535 item per week if you grind your balls off for hours is casual play.

Time spent playing has no relevance to if someone is hardcore or casual. Even so, if you do not play much, why do you need the gear anyway?

[Deleted]

The difference here though is that comparing heroic mode raids to say normal mode raids, only a few people in the world is good enough to beat it undergeared, they use a lot of class stacking to do so. Anyone with an usual brain activity and their grandmothers can complete normal mode raids. It is not really a fair comparison.

Still applies, because only a few players per hundred are good enough to do normal modes! If your argument is that because one person or one group of people can do it, everyone can do it, you should be as good as method. Why aren't you?

Saying that "If you are not as good and put in the same amount of effort like the best people in the world, you dont want it enough", hardly seems comparable to "You are not as good as someone playing with 1 hand while eating his dinner with the other and watches a TV-Series on the second monitor, then you probably dont want it enough".

Doesn't make any difference. If you are saying that the difference between a normal mode raider who is struggling and someone like yourself is effort, the difference betwee you and method must also be effort.

The difference in there is quite significant in my opinion. If you then consider the difficulty level of doing daily quests that even an infant could do, it becomes an even bigger difference. I have never in my life heard anyone say "I need higher item level to do dailies".

That's because anyone who struggles you get rid of from your roster of in game associates as soon as you can. I've heard it, and been asked to help in the past.

Time spent playing has no relevance to if someone is hardcore or casual. Even so, if you do not play much, why do you need the gear anyway?

Time spent playing is blizzards definition of casual/hardcore. You don't need the gear if you are skilled, so you don't need the gear either. Just learn to play.

[Fluorescent0]

Doesn't make any difference. If you are saying that the difference between a normal mode raider who is struggling and someone like yourself is effort, the difference betwee you and method must also be effort.

The difference between Bolt and his competitors may be natural skill, but the difference between his competitors and most other people is effort. World isn't black and white.

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Is it as casual friendly and engaging as skipping raiding content but progressing to raid equivalent gear (including tier pieces)?

You praise Cata's system a lot, but that had tokens for tier pieces which you only got in raid.

[Deleted]

The difference between Bolt and his competitors may be natural skill, but the difference between his competitors and most other people is effort. World isn't black and white.

Effort isn't a natural tendency now? When did that happen?

You really think that the ability to sit there and wipe is just a default for every player and not a fairly rare personality trait?

lol

[Fluorescent0]

Effort isn't a natural tendency now? When did that happen?

You really think that the ability to sit there and wipe is just a default for every player and not a fairly rare personality trait?

lol

Bringing that to a philosophical point of view actually kinda diverges the argument, but I'll bite. I'm for the school of thought that effort automatically comes if you enjoy something. You don't enjoy raiding? Fine, don't raid. Don't ask for the game to be changed after 8 years not to be so raid-centric anymore because that's what you want and the current model doesn't suit you.