Jaina Proudmoore

[Skyduke]

It seems a lot of people seem to think she is poorly written. I happen to very much disagree with that sentiment.

I understand why a lot of people hate her, but the "LOL dreadlord" part seems utterly ludicrous to me (And to Blizzard as well, thank god).

I think she has seen the most character development out of anyone in the game except for Sylvanas, and it has been a very good development.

That does not mean making her popular or sympathetic, but developing her in interesting ways.

She started off (in WC3) as a wide eyed naive Kirin Tor student, in love with Arthas.

She lived through: Arthas decimating Stratholme. Arthas killing his father and becoming a death knight. Antonidas (her teacher and mentor) being killed by Arthas as a death knight. Fleeing to Kalimdor, and building Theramore there.

She was so convinced of peace being a tangible possibility, that she decided to let her father die to the Horde and Co. instead of fighting with him against them (a decision I am sure she has come to dearly regret, and which haunts her to the day). She founded Theramore close to Orgrimmar, and was a huge fan of Thrall and trusted him utterly.

And then she was betrayed. The first thing Garrosh did when he became warchief was bomb her city. She only survived barely, along with Vereesa. And no one in the Horde seemed shocked by this: In the end Garrosh was Warchief for two whole expansions. After Theramore was bombed, no Horde leaders revolted at the methods. Sure, they talked about it, but the deed was done.

I don't understand what people expect out of her: Of course she's not going to "get over it." No one would in her place. Especially given her past. And the fact she believed so much in peace.

After that eventually gains control of the Kirin Tor, after discovering the Horde was working against her in a neutral city, and that they were directly responsible for the bombing of her city. Then she loses it to Khaddgar (attribute it to lazy writing by Blizzard because Dalaran is an easy neutral hub).

Another shock.

Her evolution is logical: Wide eyed girl, peace believer, gets betrayed by the Horde and hates them now. Stops believing all the talk of "We are the NEW Horde", because in the end it's a convenient excuse to shed responsibility. Drinking the blood of demons and razing Stormwind is because of the old Horde, bombing Theramore was Garrosh, etc... She now sees the whole Horde leadership as shirking responsibilities.

Again, it does not make her likeable, it makes hes strident and possibly a bit unbalanced, but now adamantly against the Horde.

I personally can't wait to see what her reunion with her mother brings. What do you guys think?

[Magnagarde]

Her evolution as a character is one of the better ones within the Warcraft universe. It is one of the rare few which have managed to make sense and keep making sense throughout all these years. There is a clear action-reaction aspect to her character and it has a curve of slowly losing trust and faith in what she used to believe in. It is how I feel about about Greymane's character too. Both have been forced to be what they weren't.

Most other major characters we've used to know from Warcraft 2 and 3 have either been cast into the shadow and get no attention or they've been "ruined" by being stale. For example, Malfurion doesn't even care about what happens to the night elves, as long as he can just heal the land. The only other character, appart from these two, that stayed true to itself is Sylvanas' character and there's a clear constant in her actions. If they go for some sort of redemption story, then that'll be lost too.

[Darth Vowrawn]

She was so convinced of peace being a tangible possibility, that she decided to let her father die to the Horde and Co. instead of fighting with him against them (a decision I am sure she has come to dearly regret, and which haunts her to the day). She founded Theramore close to Orgrimmar, and was a huge fan of Thrall and trusted him utterly.

So, in other words, it's okay to allow her genocidal father to slaughter all of the Orcs because of racism, just because a decade later an evil Orcish tyrant attacked her in retaliation for Theramore's aggression on every Horde territory adjacent to it?

And then she was betrayed. The first thing Garrosh did when he became warchief was bomb her city. She only survived barely, along with Vereesa. And no one in the Horde seemed shocked by this: In the end Garrosh was Warchief for two whole expansions. After Theramore was bombed, no Horde leaders revolted at the methods. Sure, they talked about it, but the deed was done.

That's not a "betrayal". She wasn't "betrayed" by the Horde, especially if she, on Varian's orders, attacked first. We know she did, as Theramore was building up a military attack force in Wrath of the Lich King, long before Garrosh or the Horde did anything to her. A "betrayal" would mean that it came out of nowhere, and that it was utterly unwarranted. It was neither.

I don't understand what people expect out of her: Of course she's not going to "get over it." No one would in her place. Especially given her past. And the fact she believed so much in peace.

Apparently not, considering how easily she threw her own ideals out the window, and decided to invade the entire Horde on "her King's" orders.

After that eventually gains control of the Kirin Tor, after discovering the Horde was working against her in a neutral city, and that they were directly responsible for the bombing of her city. Then she loses it to Khaddgar (attribute it to lazy writing by Blizzard because Dalaran is an easy neutral hub).

Which, only really shows that Jaina nor the Kirin Tor know what the word "neutral" means. Jaina assisted the Alliance with getting and holding a deadly superweapon, even placing arcane wards and fighting off the Horde herself. That's not "neutral", and spits on the very word. Neutral would be just letting the Horde steal it from Darnassus, doing nothing to prevent or support the Alliance before or after the fact, or just keeping the Divine Bell in a secret Kirin Tor vault in Dalaran.

She then decided to throw a temper tantrum and ragequit after Khadgar defeated her whiny racist self in a vote (which is how Dalaran is supposed to work, unlike Jaina making herself into the Dictator of Dalaran during Mists).

Again, it does not make her likeable, it makes hes strident and possibly a bit unbalanced, but now adamantly against the Horde.

It makes her thoroughly unlikable, and the same kind of racist monster that Garrosh or her Father was.

I personally can't wait to see what her reunion with her mother brings. What do you guys think?

I bet her mother's going to be an even bigger racist than she has been, or even her Father was. She's probably going to be berated into following her father's path, in the hopes of being "redeemed" and becoming the genocidal monster her parents have always wanted. Then, the Horde will finally have an enemy we can kill and feel proud about putting on a spike, instead of being turned into the "villains" for the two trillionth time in a row.

[ello]

I think I'm over this character, personally. She has been all over the place and I think I've seen her "get over it" like 4 times already. I recognize she has a lot of fans so I don't want her to die, but just keep it to Alliance-side only. Don't make her a "world hero" like Khadgar, Velen, Thrall etc and I don't care.

[OIS]

What do you guys think?

Personally, the first thought that came to my mind after reading your post was "not this shit again". Jaina isn't an unlikeable character or a poorly written one because she hates the Horde. I think she has every right to hate the Horde. I don't give a shit about how she feels about the Horde. People think Jaina is poorly written because she is. Her character is flip flopping all over the place ever since Theramore got destroyed: she was murderous, then she was not, then she got pissed again, then she calmed down, and so on. Every expansion is like a coin flip about whether Jaina will hate the Horde or not.

And she wasn't betrayed. What did the Horde promise her that they later backed out of? I don't know what you(and half the Alliance playerbase) are smoking, honestly. Theramore was an Alliance city, she joined the war against the Horde. Why would Garrosh keep an enemy city so close to the Horde territory? By the way, the Horde leaders didn't like the situation because they disagreed with the method and were kept out of the blue. Baine commited high treason by warning Jaina and that was to repay a debt. None of them had any problem with taking the city the old fashioned way.

I think Blizzard should make her a PvP objective and settle this matter.

[YouWillAllAnswerToSithis]

I think her character development is unique and different. A lot of love goes into Blizzard characters, which the game doesn't reflect very good. However, it's difficult, especially when there's a ton of other characters.

[Skyduke]

So, in other words, it's okay to allow her genocidal father to slaughter all of the Orcs because of racism, just because a decade later an evil Orcish tyrant attacked her in retaliation for Theramore's aggression on every Horde territory adjacent to it?



That's not a "betrayal". She wasn't "betrayed" by the Horde, especially if she, on Varian's orders, attacked first. We know she did, as Theramore was building up a military attack force in Wrath of the Lich King, long before Garrosh or the Horde did anything to her. A "betrayal" would mean that it came out of nowhere, and that it was utterly unwarranted. It was neither.



Apparently not, considering how easily she threw her own ideals out the window, and decided to invade the entire Horde on "her King's" orders.



Which, only really shows that Jaina nor the Kirin Tor know what the word "neutral" means. Jaina assisted the Alliance with getting and holding a deadly superweapon, even placing arcane wards and fighting off the Horde herself. That's not "neutral", and spits on the very word. Neutral would be just letting the Horde steal it from Darnassus, doing nothing to prevent or support the Alliance before or after the fact, or just keeping the Divine Bell in a secret Kirin Tor vault in Dalaran.

She then decided to throw a temper tantrum and ragequit after Khadgar defeated her whiny racist self in a vote (which is how Dalaran is supposed to work, unlike Jaina making herself into the Dictator of Dalaran during Mists).



It makes her thoroughly unlikable, and the same kind of racist monster that Garrosh or her Father was.



I bet her mother's going to be an even bigger racist than she has been, or even her Father was. She's probably going to be berated into following her father's path, in the hopes of being "redeemed" and becoming the genocidal monster her parents have always wanted. Then, the Horde will finally have an enemy we can kill and feel proud about putting on a spike, instead of being turned into the "villains" for the two trillionth time in a row.

You seem to be taking this very personally. I wasn't aware that I had attacked the Horde personally. I play both sides, mostly Horde.

This was just a post because it seems that a lot of people seem to think Jaina incoherent or poorly written, and she is anything but.

She WAS very much Pro Horde, after the bombing of Theramore she is now against the Horde.

She wanted peace, now she wants war. And right after Theramore she was almost insane, now she's just coldly hating our side. Don't see exactly how that make her a subject of hatred.

Given her new model, you can probably also forget about her being an killeable NPC anytime soon. She'll probably assume leadership of Kul Tiras from her mother.

By the way (since a lot of people seem to make this a Horde vs Alliance thing), I also very much like what they have done with Sylvanas.

Hell, I lGarrosh was coherent as well. He wanted the best for his side. Crazy and extreme, but coherent.

[Doffen]

Jaina is nice, she is by far the character I like the most on the Alliance. She has some depth and some complexety wich is rare for most WoW-characters. I don't really like or her absence in Legion, I mean she has her reasons to hate the current Horde and all but we were fighting the Legion, Jaina knows about them.

But, maybe it was a good thing to keep her out of the ingame story for an expansion. She is going to be a important character in BfA, and thats going to be a good one I think. She will have some kind of redemption.

And her model looks awesome. Just sayin.

[Deleted]

What OIS said - if her transition from neutral loving girl to horde hater felt more natural, it would be ok. To me, it would be ok even if she remained unstable, but Blizzard confirmed that they're not going this way so in the end Jaina's character isn't going ANYWHERE. She's just walking in circles. Also, what happened to that off-screen romance of her and Kalecgos?

[Astalnar]

You know, until the paragraph where you mentioned Garrosh you were dead right. That also just so happens to be the story told in Warcraft III, time when the devs actually cared about the consistent story.

From thereon, you got it wrong. It wasn't Garrosh who became warchief, and just decided to bomb Theramore out of the blue. Garrosh's bombing was a result of Jaina's decision to join in with the Alliance's invasion of Barrens. And not just to let Alliance troops march through Theramore, even today you can see Theramore soldiers fighting in the Barrens. They were the invaders. Garrosh, until Jaina chose otherwise left Theramore alone, banking on the famous neutrality of Jaina Proudmoore. Once she broke that, he considered her to be fair game, since SHE started the war with the Horde. Remember, according to lore, Theramore was Neutral, it just preffered Alliance even though that was never the case in the game.

And from that point onward, it is obvious that the writers at Blizzard care little about Jaina's character. They just use her for whatever plot development is needed. That made Jaina look like deranged, duplicious, crazy bi-polar murderer. That's why people joke about her being a dreadlord. Because that is the only sensible explanation for all she did in the game since Garrosh showed up. Otherwise you just have to admit that Blizzard can't write a good story any more.

[MechaCThun]

Here character development began to grow stale as the story of her growing hate towards the Horde was being told, almost going down a similar path of Garrosh. Blizzard delayed that through WoD and Legion for good reason and I'm glad they did.

Hopefully they get back on the right track in BfA and Jaina does not end up getting fed up and going back in time to unite the ancient human tribes of Azeroth.

[Shampro]

She's a flip floper and that's why I don't enjoy her character, I've said it a million times admiral Rogers is more of a Horde hating warmonger than her and I find her role as one x10 better written.

But don't worry she's an Alliance character, she'll be fine, she will climb from whatever depressed hole she finds herself in BFA, while Blizzard simultaneously kills Sylvanas and probably more.

[Magnagarde]

She's a flip floper and that's why I don't enjoy her character, I've said it a million times admiral Rogers is more of a Horde hating warmonger than her and I find her role as one x10 better written.

Admiral Rogers, given her background, has all the reason she needs to hate the Horde - specifically the Forsaken.

[Mehrunes]

And then she was betrayed. The first thing Garrosh did when he became warchief was bomb her city. She only survived barely, along with Vereesa. And no one in the Horde seemed shocked by this: In the end Garrosh was Warchief for two whole expansions. After Theramore was bombed, no Horde leaders revolted at the methods. Sure, they talked about it, but the deed was done.

Theramore was bombed two years after Garrosh became Warchief. And how is attacking your enemy a betrayal? Northwatch, Jaina's own subject, attacked Crossroads and captured Honor's Stand from the Horde before Garrosh attacked Ashenvale. Then Theramore's forces rolled out across multiple Horde zones in the war. And what do you expect Horde leaders to have done after the deed was done? Especially since they didn't know of the mana bomb. Move back in time? Baine already betrayed the Horde and informed Jaina of the incoming siege.

After that eventually gains control of the Kirin Tor, after discovering the Horde was working against her in a neutral city, and that they were directly responsible for the bombing of her city. Then she loses it to Khaddgar (attribute it to lazy writing by Blizzard because Dalaran is an easy neutral hub).

A weapon maker is not directly responsible for the weapon being used. And that "neutral city" directly aided Theramore, an Alliance city, against the Horde. Later on during the Purge of Dalaran she broke Dalaran's neutrality before the Sunreaver agent did.

Her evolution is logical: Wide eyed girl, peace believer, gets betrayed by the Horde and hates them now. Stops believing all the talk of "We are the NEW Horde", because in the end it's a convenient excuse to shed responsibility. Drinking the blood of demons and razing Stormwind is because of the old Horde, bombing Theramore was Garrosh, etc... She now sees the whole Horde leadership as shirking responsibilities.

There are parts of her evolution that are the opposite of logical. Because, speaking of shirking responsibilities, she herself pinned it on Garrosh in 5.2. Then wanted to dismantle the Horde anyway. Or her acknowledging that asking Dalaran to help Theramore would be asking them to break neutrality in the early chapters of Tide of War, then when she arrived in Dalaran later on arguing that them helping Theramore would be a neutral thing to do.

[Powerogue]

It sounds like they'll emphasize this backstory more in the expansion. It seems to me like a lot of people missed most of the events of MoP like the bombing of theramore and the purge of Dalaran then only saw the final raid cinematic and went "wtf why does she hate the horde now?"

[Mehrunes]

Admiral Rogers, given her background, has all the reason she needs to hate the Horde - specifically the Forsaken.

Why "specifically the Forsaken"? It has never been confirmed that her parents died to the Forsaken or when the Old Horde burned Southshore to the ground during the Second War. Given how she says her parents are buried there, yet Forsaken wouldn't give a shit about burying anyone and there was no human left to do that either, Orcs are more likely.

[Shampro]

Admiral Rogers, given her background, has all the reason she needs to hate the Horde - specifically the Forsaken.

Ok why did you tell me this? I didn't dispute it for you to try and defend that point. She's still better written than Jaina recently, or at least more consistent throughout the more recent novels.

[Magnagarde]

Ok why did you tell me this? I didn't dispute it for you to try and defend that point. She's still better written than Jaina recently, or at least more consistent throughout the more recent novels.

Because a warmonger is someone who starts wars. Rogers started no war; she either responds to something someone else started(ie Southshore) or is ordered into it by one of her superiors(ie Greymane).

One could argue her Pandaria involvement to be warmongering, but the Horde and the Alliance have been at a stage of all-out official war ever since Cataclysm, which is once again a war she didn't start.

- - - Updated - - -

Why "specifically the Forsaken"? It has never been confirmed that her parents died to the Forsaken or when the Old Horde burned Southshore to the ground during the Second War. Given how she says her parents are buried there, yet Forsaken wouldn't give a shit about burying anyone and there was no human left to do that either, Orcs are more likely.

Because the Forsaken have turned her hometown and almost all the surrounding towns/settlements into a blighted unlivable Scourgesque habitat, killing everyone in there.

[Dartz1979]

It seems a lot of people seem to think she is poorly written. I happen to very much disagree with that sentiment.

I understand why a lot of people hate her, but the "LOL dreadlord" part seems utterly ludicrous to me (And to Blizzard as well, thank god).

I think she has seen the most character development out of anyone in the game except for Sylvanas, and it has been a very good development.

That does not mean making her popular or sympathetic, but developing her in interesting ways.

She started off (in WC3) as a wide eyed naive Kirin Tor student, in love with Arthas.

She lived through: Arthas decimating Stratholme. Arthas killing his father and becoming a death knight. Antonidas (her teacher and mentor) being killed by Arthas as a death knight. Fleeing to Kalimdor, and building Theramore there.

She was so convinced of peace being a tangible possibility, that she decided to let her father die to the Horde and Co. instead of fighting with him against them (a decision I am sure she has come to dearly regret, and which haunts her to the day). She founded Theramore close to Orgrimmar, and was a huge fan of Thrall and trusted him utterly.

And then she was betrayed. The first thing Garrosh did when he became warchief was bomb her city. She only survived barely, along with Vereesa. And no one in the Horde seemed shocked by this: In the end Garrosh was Warchief for two whole expansions. After Theramore was bombed, no Horde leaders revolted at the methods. Sure, they talked about it, but the deed was done.

I don't understand what people expect out of her: Of course she's not going to "get over it." No one would in her place. Especially given her past. And the fact she believed so much in peace.

After that eventually gains control of the Kirin Tor, after discovering the Horde was working against her in a neutral city, and that they were directly responsible for the bombing of her city. Then she loses it to Khaddgar (attribute it to lazy writing by Blizzard because Dalaran is an easy neutral hub).

Another shock.

Her evolution is logical: Wide eyed girl, peace believer, gets betrayed by the Horde and hates them now. Stops believing all the talk of "We are the NEW Horde", because in the end it's a convenient excuse to shed responsibility. Drinking the blood of demons and razing Stormwind is because of the old Horde, bombing Theramore was Garrosh, etc... She now sees the whole Horde leadership as shirking responsibilities.

Again, it does not make her likeable, it makes hes strident and possibly a bit unbalanced, but now adamantly against the Horde.

I personally can't wait to see what her reunion with her mother brings. What do you guys think?

I think Jaina is the sexiest female npc human in lore that's why i got so attached to her i even had all my characters named after her but blizzard made me rename my characters

[Mehrunes]

Because the Forsaken have turned her hometown and almost all the surrounding towns/settlements into a blighted unlivable Scourgesque habitat, killing everyone in there.

And yet when pressed about issues with the Horde she talks about her parents that, as I just said, are more likely to be the victims of Orcs.