[Spoilers] Lost Honor Cinematic

[Wildberry]

Horde members died because of Saurfang's actions. He killed members of the Horde.

Which I've criticized him for.

Stop defending the traitor.

I'm not. I've referred to him as "loathsome," a "traitor," and "on-par with Baine" in this thread, even.

And drop that Orc-image. You should change it with a crying boy, because that's the faction you are supporting now.

I'm not supporting Saurfang, though. I'm firmly on Team fuck-both-of-these-people-but-fuck-Saurfang-slightly-more.

And none of those are arguments. Why is it acceptable to oust Garrosh for punishing treason, but we're not allowed to do the same to Sylvanas?

[Friendlyimmolation]

Don't forget the panel, which is scripted and rehearsed - called Sylvanas evil. There you go. Bye Bye Lich Bitch

Breaking news, Alliance poster cannot handle Sylvanas, resorts to hysterical name calling.

No shit Sherlock that the Alliance and their new puppy Saurfang thinks she's evil.

[Powerogue]

Horde members died because of Saurfang's actions. He killed members of the Horde.
Stop defending the traitor.

So have we. Remember Grebo in Stonetalon Mountains?

When someone is attempting to kill you self defence is a thing.

[KaPe]

It would have prevented tons of deaths on the Horde.

Really now? So where does Malfurion go on this crazy bloodbath and slaughters "tons" of Horde soldiers? I missed that part.

[Gorsameth]

Yes and the guy who led the latter end of the First War and the entirety of the Second wasn't hopped up on Demon Blood. That's the point. That is the Orc Saurfang should be emulating, instead he's teaming up with Blanduin.

You want Orgrim 2.0, I can understand that. But Saurfang has (post-Curse) never stood for that Horde, which is my point. Saurfang is still acting as his previously established character would indicate.

[KaPe]

Buy a virtual ticket or watch cinematics on YouTube.

Cool, so he finally did something, even if it's just a small Horde caravan. Funny how you don't blame this on Sylvanas for starting all this shit and how Night Elves wouldn't have done so anyway.

[Wildberry]

You want Orgrim 2.0, I can understand that. But Saurfang has (post-Curse) never stood for that Horde, which is my point. Saurfang is still acting as his previously established character would indicate.

No, he's really not, and that's the problem here. Post-curse Saurfang was the one who was okay with waging a war of aggression on some flimsy pretenses (worse than the ones that justified Garrosh's War), for example.

[jackofwind]

How did she turn against the Horde? By killing Alliance?

By killing her own troops and raising them as undead as a battlefield tactic.

[KaPe]

He's mad because Malfurion kills like 4 Horde soldiers and for some reason this has upset him. It's almost like they invaded and destroyed his home or something

Well to be fair, he said it was "tons of deaths", so if those four were really fat it all checks out.

[Gorsameth]

No, he's really not, and that's the problem here. Post-curse Saurfang was the one who was okay with waging a war of aggression on some flimsy pretenses (worse than the ones that justified Garrosh's War), for example.

He is ok with wars of aggression yes.
But not genocide against innocent civilians (aka the Burning of Teldrassil) which is where Saurfang's spirit is broken (as seen in the aftermath at the battle for Lorderaon where he just wants to kill himself).

[Wildberry]

She didn't target them. Garrosh did.

Garrosh targeted traitors, which Sylvanas has also explicitly done in offing the Desolate Council.

Why is one okay, and the other not?

Why do you keep trying your hardest to dodge this point?

[Wildberry]

He is ok with wars of aggression yes.
But not genocide against innocent civilians (aka the Burning of Teldrassil) which is where Saurfang's spirit is broken (as seen in the aftermath at the battle for Lorderaon where he just wants to kill himself).

Yes, he's against the genocide of civilians, but he's still okay with wars of aggression against a perceived future threat to the Horde. That kind of clashes with teaming up with the perceived future threat to the Horde.

[jackofwind]

She didn't target them. Garrosh did.

What the hell are you talking about, Garrosh was long dead before she Blighted her own troops on purpose.

[Necroxis]

Saurfang didn't make any sort of deal with Anduin or the alliance. Anduin left the gate open for Saurfang, does that mean that Saurfang becomes a traitor simply because he walks out? He didn't join the horde rescue team because they were there on order from Sylvanas, accompanied by Nathanos, but he is not an alliance collaborator. The alliance lets him go without asking for anything, and Saurfang now leaves his cell without having aligned himself with either the alliance or the forsaken horde.

Shhh you're making too much sense for the Sylvanas fanboys.

Let them scream and rage into the void while we all watch the completely obvious storyline they've forecasted from the beginning play out exactly like we all thought it would because Sylvanas has literally always been a villain.

*Saurfang walks out of a door Anduin left open for him after literally admitting to his face he can't beat Sylvanas*

OMWEIORUHAOFDAHSDFLAKSWRFSF SURFANG IS A PURPPET WHAT A TRAITOR BANSHEE QUEEN 4 LYFE.

Bahahahahahahaha. I love Wildberry and FriendlyImmolation so much.

[Wildberry]

Great theory until you remember the Alliance is under Anduin's control and he has no desire for a war and only wants peace

We're discussing Saurfang's character and motivations, the comment there is irrelevant.

[Jshadowhunter]

You're ****ing me. That's photoshopped.

Someone tell me that's photoshopped.

I'm pretty firmly on the "wait for the whole story arc to complete before REEEEing club" but excuse me while I make sure I have enough gold for a faction change for my monk.

At the hour of her third death, she will usher in our coming...

Nope, it's legit. Saw the panel myself.

[Wildberry]

Shhh you're making too much sense for the Sylvanas fanboys.

On today's episode of: Everyone who disagrees with me is a Sylvanas Fanboy...

[KrakHed]

Yes, he's against the genocide of civilians, but he's still okay with wars of aggression against a perceived future threat to the Horde. That kind of clashes with teaming up with the perceived future threat to the Horde.

Is he teaming up with them? Anduin opened the door, and Saurfang has no reason not to walk out. Anduin isn't some cunning mastermind. All Anduin did was say he couldn't get rid of Sylvanas, so Saurfang would have to do it himself.

[RichardRoe]

Setting up yet another Horde Warchief to be the final boss of an expansion. Seriously, didn't we just have this plot-line a few expansion ago?

"Dumb Horde leader is monster, noble Alliance leader will save Azeroth". So nuanced, many wow.

[Gorsameth]

Yes, he's against the genocide of civilians, but he's still okay with wars of aggression against a perceived future threat to the Horde. That kind of clashes with teaming up with the perceived future threat to the Horde.

That is the struggle that Saurfang is wrestling with since the burning of Teldrassil. To him Sylvanas has crossed the line, securing Kalimdor for the Horde is one thing. Exterminating a people is something else, that is not 'his' Horde.

What is more important to Saurfang? Stopping the Horde from descending down the dark path again or his loyalty to the Horde and his Warchief.

Make sure you know the difference between loyalty and honor. And pray you never have to choose.

Seems from the 8.1 scenario that Honor beats loyalty.
Just as he said back in Northrend to Garrosh.