Warbringers Jaina: trying to rewrite events of the past

[huth]

Dont get me wrong, most Alliance and Horde races shouldnt be nearly as numerous as they are, but this is the case for both sides, not just for the humans.

I don't see anybody arguing it isn't.

[Super Dickmann]

They were the focus of the Darkspear rebel offensive, the entire rebel army from Kalimdor were mostly trolls and tauren. As for the Nightborne, yes they had a limited space of just their city, but they didn't develop at all even with thousands of years of peace, because of their limitations on space there wasn't any real opportunity to develop. Before the Legion invaded again they were in the state same as when they barricaded themselves 10000 years ago.

A city can be a fairly big thing. You have vast tracts of land in modern states where no one lives, whereas a metropolis can easily exceed the millions. As for the rebel army, the rebels are explicitly presented as a weak entity. They require foreign support from the Alliance, fail at the gates until either the Alliance ships or the blood elves and Forsaken arrive and are ultimately only able to contest parts of two zones, compared to humanity, which is everywhere.

Well, the various human factions has joined Stormwind over the expansions with survivors from the northern kingdoms, Gilneas, Theremore population and recently Kul Tiras.

These are questionable since Kul Tiras is independent and Lordaeron, while very large, had only a fraction of its people go to Stormwind for geographic reasons. Gilneas I'm counting separately because the worgen are always presented as a separate entity.

The Night Elves should easily exceed all humans in numbers as of WC3 and even into their WoW portrayal, the dwarves have only extended and Kul Tiras, despite its civil war issues also should by rights be more powerful than Stormwind. The point isn't so much that Stormwind is unique in this regard, but that it's the most egregious example and it damages the story far more so in the process because of how humans are everywhere.

[Magnagarde]

The problem is with the Horde. The Alliance has always been the same, generally 'good but boring' (and I say this as an Alliance main), with a few bad apples which quickly get found out, and they've always been that way.

the Horde have veered from 'bad guys' (OG Horde) to 'noble savages' (Thralls Horde), back to bad (Garrosh), back to whatever they were under Vol'jin and now under 'Morally grey' Sylvannas, with a hint of Saurfang on the side fighting the good fight.

Until the Devs decide what the hell the Horde are, then and only then can the Alliance decide upon how to treat them.

This is the focal point of the narrative issues and the way it translates into the average players' perception of their faction.

One of the reason why players who loyally play Alliance are still there is surely everything the faction is about in terms of ethics, morale and the way they conduct themselves. Much like those who loyally play Alliance, there's a whole lot of players who still play Horde in the hopes that it will once again be the faction it used to be at the end of Warcraft 3 because, quite frankly, most of the Horde's fanbase stems from the narrative the Horde had in Warcraft 3.

Blizzard however seems to be completely ignorant of this. They're bunching up and packing together all these various ideologies, themes, ethics, aspirations and so on, cramming them into these two factions untill the narrative demands implosion, which is what we're partially seeing in BfA when it comes to the Horde.

The Horde needs to have its course recalibrated and what is unfolding now is what I see as Blizzard "fixing" issues that were a headache to deal with since vanilla when it comes to the narrative. The very inception of the Forsaken has already given the Horde enough of a negative burden to deal with, not to mention how the characterization of the majority of the Forsaken and their MO differs from the Scourge only in the way they call themselves. How does someone make a protagonist faction out of a faction with characters who kill said faction's members as they defend their capital? I believe Blizzard is trying to deal with this once and for all.

Being part of the Horde has also largely damaged the narrative of the Forsaken who can never reach their full narrative potential because of the "protagonist faction identity" that comes with being Horde, not to mention how badly their entire concept has been damaged by being anchored to one character for 15 years.

[ausoin]

I don't see anybody arguing it isn't.

Not according to Mehrunes, to him the Horde would have ruled the universe if it wasn't for that Alliance plot armor.

- - - Updated - - -

A city can be a fairly big thing. You have vast tracts of land in modern states where no one lives, whereas a metropolis can easily exceed the millions. As for the rebel army, the rebels are explicitly presented as a weak entity. They require foreign support from the Alliance, fail at the gates until either the Alliance ships or the blood elves and Forsaken arrive and are ultimately only able to contest parts of two zones, compared to humanity, which is everywhere.

We cant really compare modern city from today to Wow cities.

Whether the Darkspear were weak compared to the Garrosh Horde or not is irrelevant, they still were the focus of the offensive Hence the name of the entire civil war.
But they did took controll of most of Durotar and the Barrens. Iron tech was the main obstacle of attacking Ogrimmar.

These are questionable since Kul Tiras is independent and Lordaeron, while very large, had only a fraction of its people go to Stormwind for geographic reasons. Gilneas I'm counting separately because the worgen are always presented as a separate entity.

It's not just Lordaeron, but all the kingdoms, thousands of refugees from Lordaeron followed Jaina to Theremore, and then Stormwind.

The Night Elves should easily exceed all humans in numbers as of WC3 and even into their WoW portrayal, the dwarves have only extended and Kul Tiras, despite its civil war issues also should by rights be more powerful than Stormwind.

The Wota devastated the elves, and we have no idea how much did their population recover.

The point isn't so much that Stormwind is unique in this regard, but that it's the most egregious example and it damages the story far more so in the process because of how humans are everywhere.

Since many Alliance races tend to stay only in their own lands, like the dwarves and night elves it isn't surprising humans have to be the Alliance presence in various zones.
Same how the orcs are everywhere, the humans alongside the orcs were the foundation of Warcraft, so of course they are going to be the most numerous.

[Mehrunes]

And they were numerous enough to all fit in ships docked in a lorewise small town

Let me stop you right there because we've been over this already and it's boring as fuck. The lorewise small town you're talking about is the exact same town where all refugees of Stormwind landed at after the First War. So if you want to use this tangent, you're ultimately admitting Stormwind's weakness anyway, despite this being an attempt at defending it.

Meanwhile the Orcs still have the part of the population of internment camps being enough to defeat an alliance of Lordaeron (which alone dwarfed Stormwind), Kul Tiras, Gnomereggan, Dalaran and Ironforge and Stormwind. And it's not even all the Orcs that made the new Horde, because Warsongs and Frostwolves were never captured.

[ausoin]

Let me stop you right there because we've been over this already and it's boring as fuck. The lorewise small town you're talking about is the exact same town where all refugees of Stormwind landed at after the First War. So if you want to use this tangent, you're ultimately admitting Stormwind's weakness anyway, despite this being an attempt at defending it.

They tooked ships from Stormivind, they didnt arrive in Southshore with Southshore ships like the Horde. And if I recall when they arrived there wasnt much food and place for them.

[mickybrighteyes]

Actually she never kills any displaced sunreavers, those that she attacks just vanish, they dont die, theres no bodies, in other words they are teleported.

I will again assert what I've seen and that is she targets them with one of 3 spell effects. Frostbolt, blizzard, or Teleport. You can watch her cast the spells and note the different effects. You can watch as the damage values pop up over target's heads and you can watch as Displaced Sunreavers receive the spells they are targeted with. In the event of teleport, they simply are removed. In the event of blizzard or frost bolt they take damage, their HP drops to 0 and they then perform the death animation like any other target does upon reaching zero hp...

I have gone through the event at least 5 times at various points of the game (once post war of thorns event) and this remains true.

edit:

and then she has her elementals which function much like additional adds as she patrols the streets also hostile and aggroing on any hostile flagged target (basically red is dead).

[ausoin]

I will again assert what I've seen and that is she targets them with one of 3 spell effects. Frostbolt, blizzard, or Teleport. You can watch her cast the spells and note the different effects. You can watch as the damage values pop up over target's heads and you can watch as Displaced Sunreavers receive the spells they are targeted with. In the event of teleport, they simply are removed. In the event of blizzard or frost bolt they take damage, their HP drops to 0 and they then perform the death animation like any other target does upon reaching zero hp...

I have gone through the event at least 5 times at various points of the game (once post war of thorns event) and this remains true.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CMAVh_VIQw&t=307s

Im refering to this, I dont see any dispalaced sunreaver dying.

[mickybrighteyes]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CMAVh_VIQw&t=307s

Im refering to this, I dont see any dispalaced sunreaver dying.

yes that few seconds of a fight shows that and the quest text states a choice was given. the verbal dialogue and otherwise shown footage does NOT agree with the events in text.

I will assert that she still kills any red flagged entities that roam too close and that teleport effect has a cooldown far longer than her other spells and her elementals are still faster on dispatching targets than she is.

But what can I say, I'm only referring to the scenario I played as of 3-4 months ago

edit:

and My last play through I just camped out following Jaina for awhile to see what she was doing. And I never saw any listed changes or updates specifically mentioning the event when trying to find out if any bugs were fixed.

[ausoin]

yes that few seconds of a fight shows that and the quest text states a choice was given. the verbal dialogue and otherwise shown footage does NOT agree with the events in text.

I will assert that she still kills any red flagged entities that roam too close and that teleport effect has a cooldown far longer than her other spells and her elementals are still faster on dispatching targets than she is.

But what can I say, I'm only referring to the scenario I played as of 3-4 months ago

edit:

and My last play through I just camped out following Jaina for awhile to see what she was doing. And I never saw any listed changes or updates specifically mentioning the event when trying to find out if any bugs were fixed.

Its difficult to find the footage for Jaina during the purge since im not playing Wow a this time,

At 16:27 we see a glimpse of Jaina at attacking one displace sunreaver and then teleporting, and the elementals are not attacking.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PDwCQAoxVU

Here as well at 3:06

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hs5hzK5f5e0

[Combatbutler]

Its difficult to find the footage for Jaina during the purge since im not playing Wow a this time,

At 16:27 we see a glimpse of Jaina at attacking one displace sunreaver and then teleporting, and the elementals are not attacking.

Jaina still runs around in the city and kills the npcs most of the time to this very day, I know this because purge dalaran is an amazing farmspot for windwool. I was just there two days ago.

The quest line was all kinds of buggy it is possible for some horde chars to go back there whenever they want, despite having completed it a long time ago.

[huth]

Not according to Mehrunes, to him the Horde would have ruled the universe if it wasn't for that Alliance plot armor.

All races on Azeroth save maybe the Dwarves are far more numerous than they have any right to be after all that has happened. Which of the factions is/should be stronger is a seperate, unrelated argument.

[Nihilux]

The Warbringers: Jaina cinematic was what made me buy the expansion and I had high hopes that something interesting was going to happen, to salvage Jaina. Mostly because actually harkening back to the WC3:TFT bonus campaign and giving a new perspective, showing character development for Jaina, seemed extremely interesting. Especially since there's so much potential due to the dialogue, like Daelin saying "I understand more than you think, my dear. Perhaps in time, you'll too." This in light of all the tragedies Jaina has faced since then, made a retrospection totally make sense. Characters regretting their past deeds isn't something unusual. Especially since the whole rationale seemed to be that the end would justify the means for her (striking, considering Stratholme), but that the actual consequences seems to have shown that the sacrifice was in vain or felt meaningless. When considering the Jaina Warbringer, it's necessary to understand that you in WC3 have a perspective that's accustomed to the story of WC3 and its justifications within the plot.

Jaina did assist in the killing of her father, allowing the horde to kill him, as the naval blockade by Daelin secured them from the horde. So she said "go here to get ships" and fully knew that the effect would be her father dying. More so, Thrall's justification to go into Theramore can basically be said about the alliance in general and it's all a reflection of what Daelin also believed, that as long as the orcs lived, they'd never stop fighting against humans. The decision she made should've haunted her more, not only because she did help, she stood aside, she abandoned even her settlement and her men, only saying that Thrall should spare them "if he can". The easiness she did this, in comparison to how easily she abandoned Arthas, just shows she had a kind of hero fantasy during WC3. Stratholme: *runs away with Uther* "Sorry, Arthas, I can't watch you do this". Theramore "Yes, Thrall. Do what you must".

Sadly, none of this is actually explored in BFA. They tease it, but instead we have her mother just suddenly being "oh my Jaina", in such a cringey way it sounds like the "Malfurion"/Tyrande in Val'sharah. Her mother seemed like she was going to be so interesting and I expected a tough front, but with a calculating mind and a soft spot that makes her show mercy, but not just go "fuck it". I was looking forward to internal politics and court drama, ending with character development for Jaina and getting in a position where she'd work to prove herself to Kul'Tirans and her mother through the campaign. Katherine Proudmoore so easily accepting the attack on Daelin, is just ludicrous. Then also making Jaina the new Lord Admiral, made no sense either. That's something I'd expect after a lot of development and perhaps the death of Katherine.
Instead we got "oh see interesting things happening to Jaina, revisiting her past decisions", then it's all sidelined with other things, until we get Jaina back and it's all "Jaina did nothing wrong", making no sense to me.
They could've done an introspection, either making her regret not choosing a different way, but perhaps keeping her ideal of peace. Or they could've made her completely regret it and taking the full "antagonistic to the horde" angle. Or she could take the "more distant and skeptical of the horde, being paranoid about being 'betrayed' anymore" angle.

I feel like the hype was there, but when it came to the delivery there was nothing there. The warbringers were interesting and I liked them, outside of Sylvanas emotional outburst during hers (not the burning of the tree, that was okay, but the emotional outburst that she had didn't seem very in character). But in terms of what we've actually gotten this expansion it has seemed to be about the Horde and not exploring the potential that the Warbringers had. Even the Sylvanas part being represented in game is mostly about people conspiring against her and a lot of cliché and empty "NO HONAAH!". It might be my expectations that are wrong here, expecting too much from the writers of this game or for a game in the MMORPG genre. It's such a shame, because I was really hyped and thinking that since they'd gotten the initial concept right, that the writing team wouldn't fail at the execution.

[ausoin]

All races on Azeroth save maybe the Dwarves are far more numerous than they have any right to be after all that has happened. Which of the factions is/should be stronger is a seperate, unrelated argument.

I agree, but saying only one side suffers from this like he does is just nonsense.

[Super Dickmann]

We cant really compare modern city from today to Wow cities.

Most cities? No. But Suramar is more advanced in some respects as it's solved its food and convenience issues since they could and did do everything with Arcane.

Whether the Darkspear were weak compared to the Garrosh Horde or not is irrelevant, they still were the focus of the offensive Hence the name of the entire civil war.
But they did took controll of most of Durotar and the Barrens. Iron tech was the main obstacle of attacking Ogrimmar.

No, it wasn't. The Darkspear were effectively suppressed by one battalion of Kor'kron, the only reason they even got out was Thrall's assistance and other rebels, and the parts of Durotar they controlled were effectively uninhabited. Vol'jin flat out admits this when he begs the Robot Cat supervisors to give him resources before Garrosh stomps them. The Darkspear and the tauren for that matter are never depicted as a powerhouse or as capable of standing up to the stronger races alone.

It's not just Lordaeron, but all the kingdoms, thousands of refugees from Lordaeron followed Jaina to Theremore, and then Stormwind.

That's the same source of people and they suffer the same number limitations as the famous three orcish ships. Lordaeron in particular is an especially dubious case, since most became either Scourge, Forsaken, Scarlets or Argents.

The Wota devastated the elves, and we have no idea how much did their population recover.

Significantly, considering they waged the War of the Satyr and then a war with the Qiraji later on, and were considered wardens of Kalimdor through out this time. There's no situation where 10 years of recovery in one city is sufficient to become a worldpower, whereas 10k years isn't. Elven birth rates are fanfiction.

Since many Alliance races tend to stay only in their own lands, like the dwarves and night elves it isn't surprising humans have to be the Alliance presence in various zones.
Same how the orcs are everywhere, the humans alongside the orcs were the foundation of Warcraft, so of course they are going to be the most numerous.

The difference between orcs and humans is that orcs are perennial whipping boys who've now twice over become second fiddles in their own faction and been shown that they can't go at it alone at numerous situations. Humans on the other hand are the master race, competing in all fronts simultaneously and picking up the slack for dwarves and night elves who should be their superiors.

[huth]

That's the same source of people and they suffer the same number limitations as the famous three orcish ships. Lordaeron in particular is an especially dubious case, since most became either Scourge, Forsaken, Scarlets or Argents.

Let's not forget plain old dead.

[ausoin]

Most cities? No. But Suramar is more advanced in some respects as it's solved its food and convenience issues since they could and did do everything with Arcane.

Still, Suramar hadn't changed much since the Wota, 10000 years with no significant changes.

No, it wasn't. The Darkspear were effectively suppressed by one battalion of Kor'kron, the only reason they even got out was Thrall's assistance and other rebels, and the parts of Durotar they controlled were effectively uninhabited. Vol'jin flat out admits this when he begs the Robot Cat supervisors to give him resources before Garrosh stomps them. The Darkspear and the tauren for that matter are never depicted as a powerhouse or as capable of standing up to the stronger races alone.

They took Razor hill and the entire Barens, both of which was guarded by the elite Korkon, as well as fending of an army sent by Garrosh. The only area Garrosh controlled at the end of 5.3 was Ogrimmar and the docks. Of course they were far weaker when they invaded Ogrimmar than Garrosh due to his machines and Ogrimmar defensive upgrade by the goblins, but they did sperheaded the campgain that took most of his lands. So its not like they never were at the front instead of just being a supportive race.

That's the same source of people and they suffer the same number limitations as the famous three orcish ships. Lordaeron in particular is an especially dubious case, since most became either Scourge, Forsaken, Scarlets or Argents.

What do you mean by the same number limitations? All we know she took as much as she could before Arthas attacked.

Significantly, considering they waged the War of the Satyr and then a war with the Qiraji later on, and were considered wardens of Kalimdor through out this time. There's no situation where 10 years of recovery in one city is sufficient to become a worldpower, whereas 10k years isn't. Elven birth rates are fanfiction.

Lets say they did, and they prob were stronger than the pre cata Stormwind, but just because they joined the Alliance doesn't mean they were suddenly far weaker.

As for the birth rates, the elves would have been crawling all over the world if they reproduced like humans and orcs, their lower birth rates are either due to nature of their race or because they werent in a hurry to reproduce given their long lifes.

The difference between orcs and humans is that orcs are perennial whipping boys who've now twice over become second fiddles in their own faction and been shown that they can't go at it alone at numerous situations. Humans on the other hand are the master race, competing in all fronts simultaneously and picking up the slack for dwarves and night elves who should be their superiors.

Being a whipping boy or not makes no diffrience when we are talking about just numbers. Humans are everywhere because they were the foundation of the game alongside the orcs. And as I said other races like the Night elves and dwarves mainly stood in one place, its a common fantasy trope, dwarves being mostly in the mountains mining and drinking and wood elves in the forests connecting with nature.

[Mehrunes]

Not according to Mehrunes, to him the Horde would have ruled the universe if it wasn't for that Alliance plot armor.

I agree, but saying only one side suffers from this like he does is just nonsense.

Now try to quote me on those things. Oh, that's right, you can't. It's just you ran out of arguments so you're making shit up to discredit me.

[ausoin]

Now try to quote me on those things. Oh, that's right, you can't. It's just you ran out of arguments so you're making shit up to discredit me.

You refuse the accept the fact both sides suffer from pulling numbers out of their asses,you seem to pretend that only apllies to the Alliance.

[Super Dickmann]

Still, Suramar hadn't changed much since the Wota, 10000 years with no significant changes.

Oh, yes, it was all the same, extremely stable, with all natural needs met, so steady growth would have happened. Even a very low birthrate would've stacked up when everyone is immortal and no one dies to attrition.

They took Razor hill and the entire Barens, both of which was guarded by the elite Korkon, as well as fending of an army sent by Garrosh. The only area Garrosh controlled at the end of 5.3 was Ogrimmar and the docks. Of course they were far weaker when they invaded Ogrimmar than Garrosh due to his machines and Ogrimmar defensive upgrade by the goblins, but they did sperheaded the campgain that took most of his lands. So its not like they never were at the front instead of just being a supportive race.

I think you're really misreading the situation. Vol'jin flat out admits to the Alliance PC that he can't win or hold out without their assistance when prompted, and so enlists their aid in keeping him up. Vol'jin was maintained by proxy forces throughout. We see what happens when he doesn't have them immediately before when, as said, his home is effectively suppressed by a single group of Kor'kron. In terms of controlling the Barrens, they were contested in 5.3, and 5.4 isn't a case of conquest, it's Garrosh deliberately withdrawing to Orgrimmar. He flat out says he's counting on it.

But in any case, this is a weird argument, because spearheading one campaign where they needed foreign aid and visibly couldn't succeed on their own is nothing compared to the near constant human involvement. Which is par for the course for a second tier race.

Lets say they did, and they prob were stronger than the pre cata Stormwind, but just because they joined the Alliance doesn't mean they were suddenly far weaker.

As for the birth rates, the elves would have been crawling all over the world if they reproduced like humans and orcs, their lower birth rates are either due to nature of their race or because they werent in a hurry to reproduce given their long lifes.

What I'm saying is that we have no evidence suggesting that elves have a massively lower birth rate, and even if they did it would be an irrelevant argument given that the night elves went through less in WC3 than Stormwind did in the stretch between the Gnoll War, the Gurubashi War and the First War, all near defeats except the last which got them sacked and slaughtered. On top of this, we know that elves mature at the same speed as humans up to 20 from Edge of Night.

Being a whipping boy or not makes no diffrience when we are talking about just numbers. Humans are everywhere because they were the foundation of the game alongside the orcs. And as I said other races like the Night elves and dwarves mainly stood in one place, its a common fantasy trope, dwarves being mostly in the mountains mining and drinking and wood elves in the forests connecting with nature.

Humans being everywhere, much like orcs being everywhere, is not the problem. It's that the orcs are shown as requiring allied support, suffer relevant losses, have had their cast slaughtered over and over again and are in a faction with races who also have low population numbers. The human hegemony is nonsensical in all regards, from their numbers relative to more populous races to their performance, i.e superior to other races in all regards.